Iconic jump combination

[Marin]

Another nice 3A-3T from Boston. Not perfect, but nice.

This is pretty combo but Max's is much better

 

[Blades of Passion]

My point is you can't expect them to jump 100 cm in height and 400 cm in length with 876484920 of transitions before it.

And my point is skaters shouldn't be doing that many transitions for no reason and shouldn't be getting huge +GOE simply for having these transitions. There is already a place to reward transitions - in that component score. Very difficult jump entrances can give a bit more GOE, but it should be more about the jump itself. The physical act of pushing down into the ice with your legs, vaulting into the air, creating a form in the air, and then showing a controlled landing.

The skaters who choose to jump the old style STILL get credit for their jumps. If you look at score sheets you still see that most skaters who have huge jumps still get around +2 GOE despite their lack of transitions.

Skaters with inferior jumps, but transitions, are getting those +2's as well. Radiononva has a terrible 2Axel yet still gets +GOE simply for putting a turn before it. The most powerful jumps are not currently being rewarded accurately. Especially because this style of jumping makes Triple-Triple combos more difficult and then people get disproportionately scored for underrotation calls.

Another thing is, I don't see how men's quads these days are smaller than the top men's quads in the old days. And honestly it's not the 3A their main concern, it's how to land the multi quads.

The quads generally aren't smaller, although now people get lots of points on a quad even with a mistake. That inherently means people will risk more mistakes. As for the 3A, like I was saying earlier, it doesn't matter if there is less focus on 3A now. That doesn't change the fact of those jump executions being less majestic. Yes, people are doing plenty of other things in the programs, but you have to score each individual thing accurately.

as the sport and the system have become more and more complex, I don't think you can undo the trend and make it more simple.

Of course you can. Rules can change at any time. It's not necessarily about "more simple", just about "more sensible". Don't needlessly sacrifice quality for quantity.

Modern programs would be a little better off if only 2 jump combinations were required in the LP. Ideally there would be optional elements in the Long Program, extra jump combinations could be a choice.

How is this better than the current system?

Because it gives more variety and flexibility, making the programs less predictable and more musical/creative. Why force everyone to do the exactly same number of jumps, same number of spins, 4 features in every spin, a big convoluted footwork sequence with the same turns? In the modern programs you can just count what will come next, because everything is in a box and there is not much room to stray from that box. Good programs work as hard as possible to remove that sense of predictability, but too much of it is unavoidable with the current rules.

I don't agree with this. There is no measurement of how smaller the new generation of FS audience have become and you have no way of measuring it.

There is a way of measuring it, the biggest being how much the Winter Olympics and figure skating timeslots are selling for. Those values are down A LOT.

AND what made Tara did the combo she did was not only because of her technique, had she skated until she passed puberty I highly DOUBT that she could still land those combo. It's the same with other wonder babies who did so many difficult jump combination before puberty and lost them when they grew up. Let's not forget Adelina once had 3lo combinations as well...

Adelina, and most of the other "wonder babies" of the recent era, turn to forwards with their toepick on the Lutz and Flip jumps. Tara did not. Her jumps filled the air more with the rotations. Nor do many of the modern skaters bother with the +3Loop combo, since it's not worth the points. She practiced hard at snapping that 3Loop+3Loop consistently, rather than doing 2Axel+3Toe with steps. Her +3Sal combos also had better energy to them than most of the executions these days, where people are lazy on hop between the jumps into the 3Sal and often spin the entrance of that 3Sal around quite far.

Tara Lipinski DID have explosive jumping technique. - serious double standards, I don't know how to react honestly , Tara ? her rotation was excellent? I don't know to laugh or cry, sorry..

Watch this Triple Flip - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_lGt6auYDo&t=1m10s - and look at where her foot leaves the ice and where it lands. She is getting more rotation IN THE AIR than the way most women execute the jump these days.

I'm not saying her overall jump quality was amazing, but her counterpart in the current days would be Miyahara and Tara's jumps were fuller than Miyahara's are.

 

[karne]

This is pretty combo but Max's is much better

Oh, I don't disagree. Max's 3A is so much better, huge and fast and powerful. Though he doesn't do the 3A-3T, I think he could if the Zayak rule allowed him to. But I do enjoy Brendan's. He has a way of saving jumps that I'm pretty sure shouldn't be saved. His ad-libbed 3A late in this program was awesome.

 

[Meoima]

And my point is skaters shouldn't be doing that many transitions for no reason and shouldn't be getting huge +GOE simply for having these transitions. There is already a place to reward transitions - in that component score. Very difficult jump entrances can give a bit more GOE, but it should be more about the jump itself. The physical act of pushing down into the ice with your legs, vaulting into the air, creating a form in the air, and then showing a controlled landing.
Skaters with inferior jumps, but transitions, are getting those +2's as well. Radiononva has a terrible 2Axel yet still gets +GOE simply for putting a turn before it. The most powerful jumps are not currently being rewarded accurately. Especially because this style of jumping makes Triple-Triple combos more difficult and then people get disproportionately scored for underrotation calls.

The thing is what you consider the best form in the air is not what the current judging consider the best. You might prefer this it is ok but it does not mean that is the perfect and the only way to jump. Many people think might prefer this because they think it's their ideal.

I do agree that someone like Evegnia, Radionova... are getting a bit too much for their jumps BUT in the mean time it is also applied to most other top skayers. Take Liza for example, with her huge jumps but not many transitions she also gets a lot of GOE (many +2 and +3) and bonus in PCS too. You might complain that in general some skaters are getting too much because they're the favourites or because they're famous or because they're consistent in general. However this system is designed in a way that various kinds of skaters with various skill sets can all earn points. If there is anything wrong, it is the JUGDE playing favourite, it is not the system's issue.

The quads generally aren't smaller, although now people get lots of points on a quad even with a mistake. That inherently means people will risk more mistakes. As for the 3A, like I was saying earlier, it doesn't matter if there is less focus on 3A now. That doesn't change the fact of those jump executions being less majestic. Yes, people are doing plenty of other things in the programs, but you have to score each individual thing accurately.

The system is designed in a way so that people are aiming for more difficult jumps, that's why the skaters are allowed for more mistakes than in the past and that's why the layouts are becoming more and more difficult.
Back to 3A, I don't understand why you want to impose the 6.0 standard to CoP standard. Now adays we don't see people jump like Yagudin/Petronko/Kurt... anymore becasue they're trained differently. It does not mean the current 3A are less majestic, they're just different because the technique has changed. The current system has been designed for the modern days, so of course it won't be suitable to the old ways.

Rules can change at any time. It's not necessarily about "more simple", just about "more sensible". Don't needlessly sacrifice quality for quantity.

I don't see the top men are sacrifying the quality at all. Yuzuru, Javi, Patrick... all of their jumps are huge. What do you want more from their jumps? They can't jump the way Yagudin/Petrenko... did because the system they're training is vastly different. That's all.

Because it gives more variety and flexibility, making the programs less predictable and more musical/creative. Why force everyone to do the exactly same number of jumps, same number of spins, 4 features in every spin, a big convoluted footwork sequence with the same turns? In the modern programs you can just count what will come next, because everything is in a box and there is not much room to stray from that box. Good programs work as hard as possible to remove that sense of predictability, but too much of it is unavoidable with the current rules.

Then how do you score it? How do you compare this skater to other skater if you allow them to have too much predom? If all skate in the same uniform it is easier to judge the difference don't you think?

Adelina, and most of the other "wonder babies" of the recent era, turn to forwards with their toepick on the Lutz and Flip jumps. Tara did not. Her jumps filled the air more with the rotations. Nor do many of the modern skaters bother with the +3Loop combo, since it's not worth the points. She practiced hard at snapping that 3Loop+3Loop consistently, rather than doing 2Axel+3Toe with steps. Her +3Sal combos also had better energy to them than most of the executions these days, where people are lazy on hop between the jumps into the 3Sal and often spin the entrance of that 3Sal around quite far.

Tara was like what? 30 kgs when she on Olympic? I say it again. Had Tara competed well even during her puberty, I'd give her the credit of her technique, but she did not. Her body changed vastly. Are you sure the technique she used could have been enough for her growth spruth? I highly doubt it. When children are small, it is easy to overlook their flaw in technique, but when their bodies change, the flaws are way more visible. I wouldn't use Tara Lipninski or any under puberty skaters as the example of good technique.

There is a way of measuring it, the biggest being how much the Winter Olympics and figure skating timeslots are selling for. Those values are down A LOT.

I disagree with this. There are many factors considering an Olympic. How successful an event is also has to do with the preparation and PR of the whole. If all what the media pay attention to was to make the organizers look bad and how corrupted the contractors and the government are even wayyy before the game starts, you can't expect the general public to feel psotive about the Winter Olympic in general and for FS the same.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The thing is what you consider the best form in the air is not what the current judging consider the best. You might prefer this it is ok but it does not mean that is the perfect and the only way to jump. Many people think might prefer this because they think it's their ideal.

Those pictures don't speak to form/rotation in the air, just trajectories.

When scoring technical elements it has to come down to the most objective standard possible of what is most difficult/ideal. It's just factually more difficult to complete jump rotation entirely in the air. It's factually more difficult to jump bigger. To land straighter. These are physically known and measurable attributes.

Back to 3A, I don't understand why you want to impose the 6.0 standard to CoP standard. Now adays we don't see people jump like Yagudin/Petronko/Kurt... anymore because they're trained differently. It does not mean the current 3A are less majestic, they're just different because the technique has changed.

This is called "burying your head in the sand". People are trained differently specifically because they are focusing less on one thing (perfectly balletic jumps) and more on other things (transitions, footwork, spins). It's like thinking about a triathalon. If you focus on becoming a better runner and improve your overall competition time, but become a worse swimmer in the process, you can't just pretend that your swimming time hasn't gotten worse.

Another example, in terms of looking at skating choreography, would be thinking about a good recipe. You need a certain amount of cinnamon, a certain amount of chocolate, a certain amount of creme, etc. Remove the creme and just add more cinnamon and your recipe will become less tasty. Balance is required. It's fair to say that many 6.0 programs were too "empty". It's also fair to say that many current CoP programs are too "busy/blocky". A good balance must be found.

I don't see the top men are sacrifying the quality at all.

Then it seems you've ignored my example about Kulik's 3Loop vs Hanyu's. Hanyu doesn't "need" to do constant steps into that jump, nor backload it. That is his decision and it's a decision that lowers the quality of the jump in his programs. It doesn't have the same spring, the same cleanliness, the same impact.

It's a similar case on Hanyu's 3Axels in his Long Programs these days as well. He does transitions into them and is cramming them into a specific part of his program in order to take advantage of an artificial rule, which results the jumps being a little smaller, getting a bit tilted in the air (because he is tired and can't maintain an entirely straight body line), coming down hunched, not executing the rotation perfectly, not having perfect flow out. People look at these jumps and go "OMG transition, OMG in the second half of the program" and think that means huge +GOE is deserved. It doesn't, though. GOE is about the quality itself. The bonus for being in the second half of the program is already rewarded. The transitions he is putting in already gets rewarded in that component.

Inflating the GOE of the jumps creates an inaccurate score for the program as a result. Hanyu's 3A+2T at the GPF received +3 GOE. That was NOT a +3 GOE jump. Definitely NOT. His 3A+1L+3S received +2.43 GOE. Again, that is TOO much for the quality of this element. His 3Loop right after that, which I have been talking about, received several +3's. It was a +1 GOE quality jump at most! The scores are not reflecting the objective quality of the elements.

I wouldn't use Tara Lipninski or any under puberty skaters as the example of good technique.

That's a fair statement but regardless it doesn't change the fact of her technique physically being more demanding and creating jumps that had more air rotation. We can use Yu-Na Kim as an example as well. Criticized at the end of her career for lack of transitions into her Triple-Triple, yet it was executed with far more perfection of actual JUMP quality than what we see most everyone else doing.

Although Satyricon would be an apt name for this thread as well.

Since you are so against improvements to the scoring system, would you like to return to underrotated jumps being scored as bad doubles, triple axels barely being worth more than triple lutzes, quad falls being worth over 6 points, zayak mistakes invalidating entire jump combos, 4 required spins in the LP, the same spin positions constantly counting as level features, anonymous judging, 3 double axels at high value being allowed in programs, and compulsory spiral sequences where grabbing the blade and holding it for 6 seconds was super-valued?

 

[Meoima]

Those pictures don't speak to form/rotation in the air, just trajectories.
When scoring technical elements it has to come down to the most objective standard possible of what is most difficult/ideal. It's just factually more difficult to complete jump rotation entirely in the air. It's factually more difficult to jump bigger. To land straighter. These are physically known and measurable attributes.

I don't think you can say a jump which is around 100 cm height but 200 cm length is bigger than a jump which is around 60cm height but 340 cm length. You have to trade one think for another. Many top skaters today jump far across the ice, not super high like the old days. There is not a better way. Takeshi Honda certainly knows about jumps. And he said in some documentaries that whether you jump HIGH or you jump FAR across the ice, it's all ok as long as you do the jump well. They're different styles and that's it. If one chose to jump high, it's ok. If one chose to jump long, it's also ok.

If anything, I'd say jumping far across the ice is no easier way to control your axis at all. It is super difficult because when you jump across the ice, your axis will get lean and lean and lean. Yes you like higher jumps. However, many people say they PREFER longer jumps. So there is not only better way. It's a matter of taste.

This is called "burying your head in the sand". People are trained differently specifically because they are focusing less on one thing (perfectly balletic jumps) and more on other things (transitions, footwork, spins). It's like thinking about a triathalon. If you focus on becoming a better runner and improve your overall competition time, but become a worse swimmer in the process, you can't just pretend that your swimming time hasn't gotten worse.
Another example, in terms of looking at skating choreography, would be thinking about a good recipe. You need a certain amount of cinnamon, a certain amount of chocolate, a certain amount of creme, etc. Remove the creme and just add more cinnamon and your recipe will become less tasty. Balance is required. It's fair to say that many 6.0 programs were too "empty". It's also fair to say that many current CoP programs are too "busy/blocky". A good balance must be found.

I might not agree with all the ISU rules, but I do not dictate them or most fans how to do or enjoy it. If they think the current trend makes FS more of a triathalon then it's their way. If skaters and coaches don't want to follow, they might have sent some petition to ISU comittee. The thing is, the new system is still working and the majority of skaters, coaches and specialists are still accepting it.

And I strongly disagree that the new system is making skaters become weaker at basic or jumps or spin, in fact, the average quality of the skaters have improved a lot once they have to train NOT just the jump or not just the spin. Even the average quality of top skaters are much better too (in the sense of stamina, difficult elements etc). I do think the system is including too much but I also can see the pros of it. And frankly, it is not like the skating in the old days were much more exciting please. Many of the old step sequences and choreography are unbearably WEIRD in today's standards.

Then it seems you've ignored my example about Kulik's 3Loop vs Hanyu's. Hanyu doesn't "need" to do constant steps into that jump, nor backload it. That is his decision and it's a decision that lowers the quality of the jump in his programs. It doesn't have the same spring, the same cleanliness, the same impact.

Again, why are you using the 6.0 logic to apply to CoP styled programs? Send me a 20 years old Kulik to 2016 and tell him to do the same kind of programs that Yuzuru is doing with all the footwork and transitions and see how he will handle it and we will judge. Please note that I LOVE Kulik and I do believe he is the best 3A jumper ever but that does not mean the Kulik of 1998 could handle the amount of jam-packed programs these days. They were doing their programs in different time with different mindset, different coaching and different skating philosophy.

It's a similar case on Hanyu's 3Axels in his Long Programs these days as well. He does transitions into them and is cramming them into a specific part of his program in order to take advantage of an artificial rule, which results the jumps being a little smaller, getting a bit titled in the air (because he is tired and can't maintain an entirely straight body line), coming down hunched, not executing the rotation perfectly, not having perfect flow out. People look at these jumps and go "OMG transition, OMG in the second half of the program" and think that means huge +GOE is deserved. It doesn't, though. GOE is about the quality itself. The bonus for being in the second half of the program is already rewarded. The transitions he is putting in already gets rewarded in that component.
Inflating the GOE of the jumps creates an inaccurate score for the program as a result. Hanyu's 3A+2T at the GPF received +3 GOE. That was NOT a +3 GOE jump. Definitely NOT. His 3A+1L+3S received +2.43 GOE. Again, that is TOO much for the quality of this element. His 3Loop right after that, which I have been talking about, received several +3's. It was a +1 GOE quality jump at most! The scores are not reflecting the objective quality of the elements.

Say whatever you want about quality but there is a fact that none of the current top men can get the same quality of both of 3A combos Yuzuru has done consistently in the second half of his programs for years. What do you mean about deserving GOE? Don't you see that GOE these days are just some means to rank the skaters like 6.0? The best of that day get the highest GOE, it does not mean their quality is the best ever.
Why Yuzuru got +3 GOE at GPF for his 3A2T? Because he was the best of that day and he skated last and he was clean. Do you think Javi deserve to break 200 points at GPF? Personally I don't think so. But if Javi broke 200 points with that skate of his (lesser layout too) and got so many +2 and +3, then why Yuzuru should get less?
Was Yuna's spiral the best of all time? No. But did she get almost highest GOE for her spiral in her days thanks to her speed and her edge? Yes.
Did Javi get most +2 and +3 GOE for his spins at Boston? Yes. But is any of Javi's spin better than any of Jason Brown's spin? NO. Better than Lambiel? NO. But Jason was not there. The GOE and PCS are all relative in one competition. +3 at GPF is different from +3 at SA or at Boston.

I do agree the inflation is too much but it's all relative. It is not that one skater get huge GOE, in fact most top skaters are getting more and more GOE because judges don't care to slow down.

In short, the GOEs are not constant numbers. Judges simply give the best GOE for the elements that they think are the best of that day in that particular competition. You can whine and whine and whine that "ughhh this performance does not deserve this score etc" but it is still the best overall of that day so judges give it the most GOE and that's all. It is not the system the issue, it is how judges give out the score the issue.

That's a fair statement but regardless it doesn't change the fact of her technique physically being more demanding and creating jumps that had more air rotation. We can use Yu-Na Kim as an example as well. Criticized at the end of her career for lack of transitions into her Triple-Triple, yet it was executed with far more perfection of actual JUMP quality than what we most everyone else doing.

I agree Tara had a good Flip but I can't say that about the rest of her jumps. And I disagree that Yuna's jumps in the later of her career were any better than her jumps in her early career. In fact I think the best of her jumps were during 2009-2010, not after that.

 

[Mathman]

Regarding having to give shows to the audience: well... that's because in the 19th century, operas were done in grand style.... for instance in Aida, you would actually have elephants on stage... but that costs a lot of peanuts so nowadays, it's no longer done…

Not to mention that besides cleaning up after the elephants the singers were also expected to entertain rich patrons on the side.

(but sorry I never get Caruso)

To me, considering that recordings of his voice (even though remastered and digitalized) date from the nineteen aughts and the nineteen teens, the purity of his voice is riveting. I think this is a good example. I would be content to hear him just hold a single note without minding too much about his acting, emoting, or placing the song in context.

 

[gkelly]

I think "iconic," "the best," and "my favorite" can each mean different things to the same person.

And each of them is subjective, so they will mean different things to different people.

All of which can make for great discussion in a thread like this as long as we don't try to tell each other that we're right and they're wrong.

There are also, of course, differences of opinion within the skating community as well as the skating fan community as to what the scoring system and judging decisions should value more or less highly. For that discussion -- which is a completely separate topic than what qualifies as iconic -- there is value in trying to reach some consensus. Not because one person's preference is better than another person's preference, but because standardized rules and consistent application of those rules and standards makes a fairer and more predictable sport.

Because so much of what is being judged in figure skating is qualitative though, and because there are so many different skills and qualities being measured, there will always be some degree of subjectivity in which preferences get written into the rules and which are ignored, as well as in how individual judges weight different criteria that go into the same score and where they each draw their mental lines between adequate and good.

Even the average quality of top skaters are much better too (in the sense of stamina, difficult elements etc).

In general, I think the fields tend to get deeper, in that 10th or 20th place performances in any era are usually clearly superior to 10th or 20th place performances decades earlier, with the caveat that sometimes those places are taken by better skaters having a bad day.

Please note that I LOVE Kulik and I do believe he is the best 3A jumper ever but that does not mean the Kulik of 1998 could handle the amount of jam-packed programs these days. They were doing their programs in different time with different mindset, different coaching and different skating philosophy.

My understanding was that Kulik of 1997 was trying to jam-pack his program (by the standards of the time anyway), while also trying to add a quad, and he struggled to capture any medals that year. So he simplified the programs for 1998, and landed the jumps when he needed them most.

Don't you see that GOE these days are just some means to rank the skaters like 6.0? The best of that day get the highest GOE, it does not mean their quality is the best ever.

GOEs are not supposed to be comparative, although there is probably some mental calibrating going on for each judge to try their best to make sure their standard remains the same across the competition -- sometimes without success if GOEs tend to get inflated as the event progresses.

But the rules do allow for different ways to earn those extra points, so one skater might get +2s for a big, fast, well-controlled simple jump, and another skater (or even the same skater elsewhere in the program) might earn the same score for a smaller jump with difficult entry/exit/air position and/or timing to the music. The system is designed to reward different qualities that may be most important to different observers.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Every program is going to be predictable after you watch it the first time. Don't blame Hanyu or anyone else because a jump is here for no reason other than it is required. That's the rules and a program is only so long. Elements have to go somewhere. Transitions help decrease this predictability. Even as a fan, you will analyze every step and turn and edge in your favorite skater's program. Everything becomes predictable!

 

[Meoima]

Not to mention that besides cleaning up after the elephants the singers were also expected to entertain rich patrons on the side.

To be honest many top opera singer of today also are recommended to entertain their rich fans... :scard7:

To me, considering that recordings of his voice (even though remastered and digitalized) date from the nineteen aughts and the nineteen teens, the purity of his voice is riveting. I think this is a good example. I would be content to hear him just hold a single note without minding too much about his acting, emoting, or placing the song in context.

Yes I agree that the state of Caruso's recording is not very good so it makes it less enjoyable to appreciate his singing. It's the same with other artists too. However, it's undeniable that his style is old. Let's take another example, all of my friends just gush over Renata Tebaldi and I am the only one can't feel her voice. However I like Callas pretty much while others can't stand her. So it's all just personal preference.

Back to skating, personally I don't think there is only one way for a jump to be impressive, the same as there is no one day for a voice to be amazing. It can be very high or very long and it's all amazing. I think it's pretty unfair to call a high jump as the most impressive, there is beauty in long jumps with flow and it's not lesser than the previous generations.

 

[TryMeLater]

Here's the EMPRESS doing 2A-1Lo-3Sal 30 years ago
https://youtu.be/T4oZ-Judbac?t=11

The current girls with eked out 1Lo-3Sal should get -2 to -3 most of the times. With flow and speed, it's a nice combo. Without flow and speed, it's just so sloppy. Like Sotskova and Pogo.

Here is the best 2A-1Lo-3S she's done (IMO): https://youtu.be/Af-ls6JwpfM?t=80
The speed and flow are amazing.

 

[FlattFan]

Here is the best 2A-1Lo-3S she's done (IMO): https://youtu.be/Af-ls6JwpfM?t=80
The speed and flow are amazing.

I posted the same clip in subsequent post. Yes, it's a much better one maybe due to the camera angle which captured the entire coverage of the combo.

This is +5 GOE.

The way BoP showed Petrenko's combo, you'd think it has this kind of speed and flow but it didn't.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I don't think you can say a jump which is around 100 cm height but 200 cm length is bigger than a jump which is around 60cm height but 340 cm length. You have to trade one think for another.

Nobody said this? The point is that many of the jumps are smaller altogether and/or they lack other qualities too. Again, look at this Triple Axel from Petrenko - it has more height AND distance than some of Hanyu's that have been gifted huge +GOE, plus better rotation and position.

And I strongly disagree that the new system is making skaters become weaker at basic jumps or spin

Certain qualities become lost at the expense of others, unnecessarily. Almost nobody does classic spin positions anymore. Camel spins with an upright extended back and leg, no catch-foot. Sit spins with a straight back and extended free leg. Layback spins in attitude position with a well arched back. Very fast scratch spins.

And frankly, it is not like the skating in the old days were much more exciting please. Many of the old step sequences and choreography are unbearably WEIRD in today's standards.

The step sequence of the current days are considered by more people to be "weirder and unbearable", the way skaters are randomly turning all over the ice without enough purpose and for such long times. I suppose your mileage may vary on when skating was most exciting but, again, viewership on the whole is down a lot and the sport doesn't seem to be bringing nearly as much sustained interest. Where was the South Korean boom in figure skating, a big demand for professional skating competitions there, as a result of Yu-Na Kim? It didn't happen because they mostly just watched for Yu-Na herself and weren't as drawn into the sport as a whole.

Again, why are you using the 6.0 logic to apply to CoP styled programs?

It's not really about "6.0 logic". Regardless, "CoP" is nothing but a set of rules that can be changed. What it's really about is objectively assessing the qualities of jumps. Size, rotation, position, flow. The same goes for the quality of other elements and programs as a whole.

I disagree that Yuna's jumps in the later of her career were any better than her jumps in her early career.

Nobody said that, I was just talking about how she was criticized later in her career for not doing any transitions into her Triple-Triple jump combo. There's a kind of mentality that it's better to put random transitions in your program and then jump a lot smaller or with more of a cheated rotation.

In this thread every poster mentioned their favorites : he/she has the best jumps!! I understand it, there is nothing wrong with it, because there is no clear measurement which one is the best.. Many skaters have beautiful jumps. You can see which skaters are the favorites of Blade of Passion and which skater is not.

Petrenko was not one of my favorite skaters. Hanyu is one of my favorites, at least with his best programs. It has nothing to do with fandom for me, it's about rational analysis and considering the actual science/mechanics behind jumps to inform the scoring. It shouldn't be so hard for us to compartmentalize jumps.

And yes I know all about Plushenko changing his program for 2002 Olympics. I'm sure it must have been so hard to throw together a Carmen program . He played the game very carefully his entire career, always skipping competitions that could possibly tarnish the aura of him being a champion.

Every program is going to be predictable after you watch it the first time. Don't blame Hanyu or anyone else because a jump is here for no reason other than it is required.

I don't agree that any program will be predictable after watching it once. Especially if skaters had more freedom to change their programs on the fly. Regardless, the problem is that EVERY program becomes more predictable when you know exactly what technical elements every skater will do and when nearly every competitor just does a bunch of jumps directly after the half-way point of their program.

As I was saying about Hanyu's 3Loop, it is NOT "required" for him to put it late in the program, with steps directly beforehand that make the jump turn out to be smaller and less finished. I talked last season about how his program could be better if he just did that jump right after his step sequence and then spaced out his other jumps more in the second half of the program. He wouldn't get the second-half bonus on the 3Loop like that, but it would be better choreography, better interpretation, and should result in better GOE. Sadly, the judges have just been handing out huge GOE's and PCS anyway.

 

[Meoima]

Nobody said this? The point is that many of the jumps are smaller altogether and/or they lack other qualities too. Again, look at this Triple Axel from Petrenko - it has more height AND distance than some of Hanyu's that have been gifted huge +GOE, plus better rotation and position.

So? Did they jump in the same competition and got the same scores? Were they recorded by the same camera angles? Did they both execute the jump in the same timing? Did they do the same amount of transitions? Did they execute the same layout with 3 quads before the 3As combo? Did the judge rob Petrenko's any title and give it to Yuzuru?

Certain qualities become lost at the expense of others, unnecessarily. Almost nobody does classic spin positions anymore. Camel spins with an upright extended back and leg, no catch-foot. Sit spins with a straight back and extended free leg. Layback spins in attitude position with a well arched back. Very fast scratch spins.

Personally I don't see that's a loss but if you believe so it's your opinion.

The step sequence of the current days are considered by more people to be "weirder and unbearable", the way skaters are randomly turning all over the ice without enough purpose and for such long times.

To be frankly, I remember that most of the sequence in the old days were freakingly weird, and many choreography in the old days sucked. If you want a thread about weird and funny and deadly boring sequence of the old days, I can make a thread and give you many examples. Watching through some old competitions on tivi It was the same boring as watching today's boring performance. That's it.

I suppose your mileage may vary on when skating was most exciting but, again, viewership on the whole is down a lot and the sport doesn't seem to be bringing nearly as much sustained interest. Where was the South Korean boom in figure skating, a big demand for professional skating competitions there, as a result of Yu-Na Kim? It didn't happen because they mostly just watched for Yu-Na herself and weren't as drawn into the sport as a whole.

This is an unfair statement. You haven't followed the thread of figure skating in Korea? You didn't notice how many novice and junior girls who can do super difficult combos in Korean championship? And just recently a girl won Korean National when she's just 11. South Korea has many promising novice and junior skaters now, thanked to Yuna.

It's not really about "6.0 logic". Regardless, "CoP" is nothing but a set of rules that can be changed. What it's really about is objectively assessing the qualities of jumps. Size, rotation, position, flow. The same goes for the quality of other elements and programs as a whole.

The top men who are getting highest PCS right now all have big jumps and good flow when they do it well. And it's objectively speaking. They're doing programs with more demands than 6.0, they're training under different skating philosophy. So it's not wrong to say it's different mindsets and different logic.

Nobody said that, I was just talking about how she was criticized later in her career for not doing any transitions into her Triple-Triple jump combo. There's a kind of mentality that it's better to put random transitions in your program and then jump a lot smaller or with more of a cheated rotation.

I do find that some movement from her would make it look better than just gliding straight without transitions into her 3-3, her whole body looked stiff during that particular amount of time.

Petrenko was not one of my favorite skaters. Hanyu is one of my favorites, at least with his best programs. It has nothing to do with fandom for me, it's about rational analysis and considering the actual science/mechanics behind jumps to inform the scoring. It shouldn't be so hard for us to compartmentalize jumps.

My personal take is that you have a conservative mindset and you only believe in what you prefer is good as standard. Yuzuru is my favorite but it has nothing to do with I am saying about the previous generations' jumps, they look so loose and uncontrolled. Petrenko, Yagudin's jumps did look explosive but it's one of the style that makes me amazed, it's not the only one. Jumping far across the ice with unexpected entries is also amazing. There is nothing wrong when some people say they don't like it when skaters telegraph their jumps too much. It's like "please when will you jump finally???" So it comes round and round. The current generations are working very hard to make their programs harder within their abilities and the rules. I don't think the older generation skaters had they been born 10 years later and competed these days would make it vastly better than the current ones. Human all have their limits.

As I was saying about Hanyu's 3Loop, it is NOT "required" for him to put it late in the program, with steps directly beforehand that make the jump turn out to be smaller and less finished. I talked last season about how his program could be better if he just did that jump right after his step sequence and then spaced out his other jumps more in the second half of the program. He wouldn't get the second-half bonus on the 3Loop like that, but it would be better choreography, better interpretation, and should result in better GOE. Sadly, the judges have just been handing out huge GOE's and PCS anyway.

Unless Yuzuru does the layout and choreography you suggest and give us a video side by side with his original Seimei, there is no way for us to value which is better. Your suggestion or Shae's ideas. All of your ideas about how his programs should be are just on paper and we will never see how it will work out.

 

[plushyfan]

And yes I know all about Plushenko changing his program for 2002 Olympics. I'm sure it must have been so hard to throw together a Carmen program . He played the game very carefully his entire career, always skipping competitions that could possibly tarnish the aura of him being a champion.

You didn't know that. Or you are simply malicious

I know he is a genius and he learns choreography incredibly quickly ( Morozov said it) but to learn choreography and to prepare for ECH are different things.In 2002 he was only 19, he has 2 ECH and 1 WCH titles.. I don't think he was a big champion in that time. He wanted to compete all the time.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Did they execute the same layout with 3 quads before the 3As combo?

That has nothing to do with how GOE scores should be given.

To be frankly, I remember that most of the sequence in the old days were freakingly weird, and many choreography in the old days sucked. If you want a thread about weird and funny and deadly boring sequence of the old days, I can make a thread and give you many examples. Watching through some old competitions on tivi It was the same boring as watching today's boring performance.

It's not about then and now specifically. It's about what is overall most desirable, where the sport should be headed. Yes there were plenty of boring programs back then, but there were also less outright ugly programs. I don't recall any big-event 6.0 competition being so gruesome as the onslaught of awful Phantom of the Opera programs that we saw at 2015 Worlds.

You didn't notice how many novice and junior girls who can do super difficult combos in Korean championship? And just recently a girl won Korean National when she's just 11.

What does that have to do with audience appeal?

The top men who are getting highest PCS right now all have big jumps and good flow when they do it well. They're doing programs with more demands than 6.0, they're training under different skating philosophy.

Again, I return to the Triathalon example. Programs as a whole have more demands now, people have improved their overall "competition time", but certain aspects have been diminished. People are now able to "run better and bike better, but they don't swim as well". In current skating, the way the body is held, the nuances of expression, the audience projection, the fullness of jumps, and the finishing off of movements has dropped in standard. Who ever even finishes off a spin anymore, with a clean wind-up position at the end? Almost nobody. Everyone mostly just yanks themselves out of their last spin position and then continues on with the program. Look at how Hanyu travels out of the last spin position here / hunches out of the end of the spin here / just steps out of the end of his spin here.

The same goes for the way people are holding their bodies through the programs. Much more difficult steps are being done inbetween elements, but the skaters are sacrificing their overall positions and usage of the body to do it. The arms and head and legs are not being held in as clear or purposeful of positions.

There is nothing wrong when some people say they don't like it when skaters telegraph their jumps too much. It's like "please when will you jump finally???"

Sure, that's fine, but "telegraphing too much" is separate from "doing nothing but busy entrances into jumps". Is it worth the quality of a jump and the overall choreography suffering in order to include steps into the jump? Again, there needs to be a balance.

Unless Yuzuru does the layout and choreography you suggest and give us a video side by side with his original Seimei, there is no way for us to value which is better.

Only if a person has a total lack of imagination (and also ignores previous examples, for example Hanyu's own 2012 program that had a much more varied jump layout). There is actually a rare medical problem of this, a person's brain being unable to form any images, only able to visualize what is directly in front of them. I don't think anyone here has that problem, though.

 

[Mathman]

There is actually a rare medical problem of this, a person's brain being unable to form any images, only able to visualize what is directly in front of them. I don't think anyone here has that problem, though.

Me. I thought it was normal, though.

 

[Mathman]

Almost nobody does classic spin positions anymore. Camel spins with an upright extended back and leg, no catch-foot. Sit spins with a straight back and extended free leg. Layback spins in attitude position with a well arched back. Very fast scratch spins.

I miss this the most. Does anyone really prefer an upside-down crab-camel position, a sit-spin with your arms dangling down like a jellyfish, a sideways-leaning hair-cutter layback. A slow upright spin with many changes of position and edge?

Well, yes, I guess they must.

 

[Meoima]

That has nothing to do with how GOE scores should be given.

Then why do you impose your ideal of 6.0 era to how the current GOE should be judged? They're more than 20 years apart. The ideal of beauty and technique don't stay the same just after several years, let alone 20 years.

It's not about then and now specifically. It's about what is overall most desirable, where the sport should be headed. Yes there were plenty of boring programs back then, but there were also less outright ugly programs. I don't recall any big-event 6.0 competition being so gruesome as the onslaught of awful Phantom of the Opera programs that we saw at 2015 Worlds.

I beg to differ, frankly these are quite entertaining:
https://youtu.be/t_LIhHGAOdI?t=2m39s
https://youtu.be/3SHsxx0GE-I?t=46s
https://youtu.be/Q2uNj9JXIKs?t=2m37s
https://youtu.be/WaJwMU_PSmg?t=1m44s
https://youtu.be/sn0tltn83UY?t=3m43s
https://youtu.be/_kMPMyQ4WSk?t=1m4s
https://youtu.be/a_8XhM4n6wo?t=2m14s
https://youtu.be/Ixhmo_iuqH8?t=1m58s
https://youtu.be/5I_-8uUJ94M?t=2m13s
https://youtu.be/IkrfexVFctI?t=3m12s

What does that have to do with audience appeal?

So if the audience in Korea don't care for skating and they only watch Yuna, who pay the money for their children to practice skating then?

Again, I return to the Triathalon example. Programs as a whole have more demands now, people have improved their overall "competition time", but certain aspects have been diminished. People are now able to "run better and bike better, but they don't swim as well". In current skating, the way the body is held, the nuances of expression, the audience projection, the fullness of jumps, and the finishing off of movements has dropped in standard. Who ever even finishes off a spin anymore, with a clean wind-up position at the end? Almost nobody. Everyone mostly just yanks themselves out of their last spin position and then continues on with the program. Look at how Hanyu travels out of the last spin position here / hunches out of the end of the spin here / just steps out of the end of his spin here.

Isn't the improvement of the sport is to make it harder and pushing the boundaries? It is ok for skaters to look tired, they're doing more demanding programs than past skaters after all. Sport evolves all the time. In fact it's good that they looks tired, that means they're pushing their limits. About the hunched back, Yuzuru has always had stamina issue along with other health problem, it's his personal issue, not the system's issue.

The same goes for the way people are holding their bodies through the programs. Much more difficult steps are being done inbetween elements, but the skaters are sacrificing their overall positions and usage of the body to do it. The arms and head and legs are not being held in as clear or purposeful of positions.

It has to do with what they define as beautiful and effective spin position. It is about details, not a systematic issue. Skaters can always choose some difficult but beautiful spin positions and work hard for it.

Sure, that's fine, but "telegraphing too much" is separate from "doing nothing but busy entrances into jumps". Is it worth the quality of a jump and the overall choreography suffering in order to include steps into the jump? Again, there needs to be a balance.

I agree there needs to be a balance. However my take is that you should do something before the jump when your set up is so long, it might be a simple entry that fits the music, it's still better than doing nothing and keep your whole body stiff for several seconds because you telegaph the jump.

Only if a person has a total lack of imagination (and also ignores previous examples, for example Hanyu's own 2012 program that had a much more varied jump layout). There is actually a rare medical problem of this, a person's brain being unable to form any images, only able to visualize what is directly in front of them. I don't think anyone here has that problem, though.

Even best musical piece need to be played by some musicians so audience can enjoy. If you just give us the scoresheet there is nothing will be viewed differently. The music isn't the score sheet itself.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Then why do you impose your ideal of 6.0 era to how the current GOE should be judged? They're more than 20 years apart. The ideal of beauty and technique don't stay the same just after several years, let alone 20 years.

Again, it's not about 6.0 era, it's about factual science, the physics of jump mechanics. Sport is supposed to quantify physical achievement. Jumping bigger, finishing all of your rotations in the air, landing with perfect posture...these things all take an exertion of energy and a control of the body to make it happen.

Furthermore, why do you ignore history? There are great aspects to skating of the past decades that should NOT be forgotten and should still be valued. It's similar to film, you don't just ignore all of the films made 20 years ago, as if they are now useless. You look at the varying techniques and styles and compositions, try to see what worked best and why. The rules in figure skating are whatever we want them to be, the set of values that we ascribe to the process.

So if the audience in Korea don't care for skating and they only watch Yuna, who pay the money for their children to practice skating then?

Parents who have the money, of course. There's no doubt that when a skater has immense success like Yu-Na, it's going to lead to others trying to copy that success for themselves. South Korea didn't have much of a figure skating program in the past, now it's better, but that still doesn't speak to sustained audience relation. People will do all manner of things in life simply to achieve success, but more people using figure skating as their method doesn't much help the sport in terms of being something that continually interests a large audience, like movies or music do. After the kids don't achieve the success and the parents stop paying, then what?

Isn't the improvement of the sport is to make it harder and pushing the boundaries?

Hmm, pushing the boundaries how exactly? "Artistry" used to be an important thing to achieve in skating and it's been diminished. Again, one thing pushed aside in service of another. Is the gain worth the loss? That's what is important to consider. Figuring out where to make gains without taking losses is really the ideal.

About the hunched back, Yuzuru has always had stamina issue along with other health problem, it's his personal issue, not the system's issue.

It IS the system's issue. The guy is going out there an doing extremely difficult jumps, spins, transitions. There's clearly enough physical capability. The issue is where the focus is going, as per the scoring system. Holding your body into good positions, moving your body into interesting shapes, moving directly in time with the music, finishing off your movements, projecting to the audience...these things DO take a lot of energy and skill. That skillset has been pushed aside in the sport, to cram more turns into footwork sequences, more turns/steps into the transitions, twisted positions in spins, more jump combos...it's all more, more, more...instead of showcasing the highest form of dance and theater on ice possible, artistry in motion.

Even best musical piece need to be played by some musicians so audience can enjoy. If you just give us the scoresheet there is nothing will be viewed differently. The music isn't the score sheet itself.

Right, but people understand how to read music for a reason, and people can recognize lacking aspects and how it could be better, the same as how editors look at a novel/film/essay and discern how to better arrange and alter the work into its best form.

Since we're on the topic, these have some relevance - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNaXQQbcgw0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl-N2JleNeU&t=6m50s