What was Michelle Kwan's peak year?

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I have to re-watch it, but I don't think Kwan out-jumped Irina in the 1999/2000 GPF (that's where Irina debuted her Don Quixote program and did 2 3/3s). However, Kwan certainly out-jumped Irina in the 2002 GPF LP as did Hughes. I wonder what would have happened had Kwan done that 3/3 or not fell on that final 3 Toe.

 

[Mathman]

I have to re-watch it, but I don't think Kwan out-jumped Irina in the 1999/2000 GPF (that's where Irina debuted her Don Quixote program and did 2 3/3s). However, Kwan certainly out-jumped Irina in the 2002 GPF LP as did Hughes. I wonder what would have happened had Kwan done that 3/3 or not fell on that final 3 Toe.

Oh, yes, I meant 2001-02. In that case I have to modify my "the fix is in" feeling. In this one I thought that the ISU was clearly placing Irina in the role of favorite for the Olympics. I am not so paranoid-conspiratorial now.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I wonder what would have happened had Kwan done that 3/3 or not fell on that final 3 Toe.

Well she obviously would have won! Still shouldn't have been close anyway. Slutskaya only did 4 clean Triples, whereas Kwan did 6. One of the worst judging decisions ever. It's like several of the judges just thought "Kwan fell and Slutskaya didn't, so let's give it to Slutskaya!"

Kwan 2001/2002 GPF

Slutskaya 2001/2002 GPF

That was a 5.7 tech/5.8 presentation performance from Kwan and a 5.5 tech/5.6 presentation performance from Slutskaya. No question who was better.

Sarah Hughes was certainly better than Slutskaya as well. 7 Triples (including 3/3 combo) and 2 Double Axels. Even with the flutzing and underrotation issues, it was clearly superior - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DByQzbP0pwM

 

[jenaj]

Well she obviously would have won! Still shouldn't have been close anyway. Slutskaya only did 4 clean Triples, whereas Kwan did 6. One of the worst judging decisions ever. It's like several of the judges just thought "Kwan fell and Slutskaya didn't, so let's give it to Slutskaya!"

Kwan 2001/2002 GPF

Slutskaya 2001/2002 GPF

That was a 5.7 tech/5.8 presentation performance from Kwan and a 5.5 tech/5.6 presentation performance from Slutskaya. No question who was better.

Sarah Hughes was certainly better than Slutskaya as well. 7 Triples (including 3/3 combo) and 2 Double Axels. Even with the flutzing and underrotation issues, it was clearly superior - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DByQzbP0pwM

Michelle outskated Irina in the LP at Worlds, too, at least on the second mark, but was placed second again. As Dick Button said when Terry Gannon asked if Michelle could win, "Not with this panel."

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

As Dick Button said when Terry Gannon asked if Michelle could win, "Not with this panel."

I hated that comment when Dick said it. Not that it wasn't true, but that he never once pointed out all the times when the composition would favor an American skater. If you're going to bring that up as a possible factor in the outcome, at least do so for more than one event.

 

[mrrice]

I hated that comment when Dick said it. Not that it wasn't true, but that he never once pointed out all the times when the composition would favor an American skater. If you're going to bring that up as a possible factor in the outcome, at least do so for more than one event.

Thank you for making this comment. I think it was the Japan open in 1998 and of course the SP in 1999 that several skaters out skated Michelle and she wound up beating them. At Worlds in 2002 Michelle was certainly good in the LP. However, her SP that season really exposed the lack of height in her jumps, especially compared to Irina. I have a feeling Dick made the comment about the "Panel" because he knew there was no way that Michelle would get away with Flutzing. He was right.

Here's Maria's SP from the Japan Open in 1999. You can hear Peter talk about the fact the Michelle doubled one of her triples and still beats a clean Maria....:disapp:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cht_9tFzq-Q

 

[carriecmu0503]

I hated that comment when Dick said it. Not that it wasn't true, but that he never once pointed out all the times when the composition would favor an American skater. If you're going to bring that up as a possible factor in the outcome, at least do so for more than one event.

The 2002 Worlds panel had SIX Russian judges on it. There has absolutely never been a panel that would favor an American skater that way. This has been happening since the breakup of the USSR; having multiple Russian judges who just happen to represent other former Soviet countries. The 2002 Worlds was probably the worst scenario, and I hope that never happens again!

 

[jenaj]

Thank you for making this comment. I think it was the Japan open in 1998 and of course the SP in 1999 that several skaters out skated Michelle and she would up beating them. At Worlds in 2002 Michelle was certainly good in the LP. However, her SP that season really exposed the lack of height in her jumps, especially compared to Irina. I have a feeling Dick made the comment about the "Panel" because he knew there was no way that Michelle would get away with Flutzing. He was right.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cht_9tFzq-Q

I have to totally disagree! Michelle's (non-existent and irrelevant in any event) "flutzing" had nothing to do with her placement at 2002 Worlds. The issue is her placement in the long program. She was totally clean, with 6 triples, the same as Irina. In what universe should Michelle have received lower marks on both scores than Irina? Even if they both score the same on tech, Michelle beats Irina on the second mark. The panel was all European, including Russia, Belarus and other former Soviet or Eastern bloc countries. Irina won as a consolation prize for losing (deservedly) to Sarah Hughes at SLC. Michelle had no chance, no matter what she did in the short program. She certainly should have won the long.

 

[Mathman]

Thank you for making this comment. I think it was the Japan open in 1998 and of course the SP in 1999 that several skaters out skated Michelle and she would up beating them...

Here's Maria's SP from the Japan Open in 1999. You can hear Peter talk about the fact the Michelle doubled one of her triples and still beats a clean Maria....:disapp:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cht_9tFzq-Q

And an extra +1 for the St. James Infirmary.

Maria did beat Michelle on the first mark, thanks to the doubled jump. But Michelle won the presentation scores and overall in the short.

We have to remember that this was a cheesefest, that is, an "invitational" not sponsored by the ISU. There was no Japan Open in 1998. It became an ISU sanctioned event in 2006.

Since these were Michelle's premier earning years, the sponsors probably had to lay down big bucks for her to appear, besides prize money. (At the time the USFSA was paying Michelle $900,000 a year to participate in the three ABC cheesefests and for other promotional work.) You have to be nice to the headliner and seat-filler, doubled jump and all.

Whether it was the the Keri Lotion Classic or the Campbell Soup Bowl, Michelle never met a cheesefest that she didn't like. (In those days, no Michelle, no show.) Until she made the mistake of going to the 2000 Canadian Open, where they gave it to Josie Chouinard with a delightful Lori Nichol program to Humoresque despite a fall on a triple Lutz, against a generic blah but clean effort by Michelle. Josee used that victory as a teaching tool for her students ever after. Never give up. Stick to your dreams. You might beat Goliath after all!

Frank was livid. He vowed that Michelle would never skate in Canada again. And, except for the next year's Skate Canada, I don't think she ever did.

Her streak was finally broken when Sasha got her act together at the 2003 Campbell's, delivering the only clean long program of her (Sasha's) career.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

The 2002 Worlds panel had SIX Russian judges on it. There has absolutely never been a panel that would favor an American skater that way. This has been happening since the breakup of the USSR; having multiple Russian judges who just happen to represent other former Soviet countries. The 2002 Worlds was probably the worst scenario, and I hope that never happens again!

In the LP, there were judges from Russia and Belarus. Where are you getting six from?

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

In what universe should Michelle have received lower marks on both scores than Irina? Even if they both score the same on tech, Michelle beats Irina on the second mark. The panel was all European, including Russia, Belarus and other former Soviet or Eastern bloc countries.

Artistry is subjective; if it were objective, everyone would try to skate the same. European judges may appreciate a certain type of choreography because most of their skaters skate that way.

 

[mrrice]

I have to totally disagree! Michelle's (non-existent and irrelevant in any event) "flutzing" had nothing to do with her placement at 2002 Worlds. The issue is her placement in the long program. She was totally clean, with 6 triples, the same as Irina. In what universe should Michelle have received lower marks on both scores than Irina? Even if they both score the same on tech, Michelle beats Irina on the second mark. The panel was all European, including Russia, Belarus and other former Soviet or Eastern bloc countries. Irina won as a consolation prize for losing (deservedly) to Sarah Hughes at SLC. Michelle had no chance, no matter what she did in the short program. She certainly should have won the long.

Well, most people know that I have seen Michelle skate live twice. Let me assure you that Michelle's "Flutz" did exist. I like Michelle and more than that, I respect her longevity and the way she's moved forward with her very successful life. However, she was not perfect and was often held up by judges. The fact that she placed 4th with this skate from 1999 is proof of that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHrORnPnpFU

 

[Mathman]

In the LP, there were judges from Russia and Belarus. Where are you getting six from?

Slutskaya judges:

Fabio Bianchetti, Italy.
Adrianna Domanska, Slovakia
Lovorka Kodrin, Croatia
Igor Dolgushin, Russia
Irina Absallamova, Belorus
Hanna Then, Poland

Kwan judges:

Judit Furst-Tombar, Hungary (She was later kicked out of the ISU for opposing Speedy in the WSF fiasco.)
Philippe Meriguet, France
Marianne Oeverby, Sweden

There were no judges from North America or Asia.

So except for Italy (Cinquanta's country), there were five judges from the so-called "Slavic Bloc," all of whom voted for Irina. And three judges outside the that bloc, all of whom voted for Michelle.

Well, that doesn't prove anything. I thought Irina should have won, too. Stiil…when the Soviet Union broke up a lot of the judges for various Eastern European countries were Russian nationals, ethnic Russians, or people brought up int the Russian system with ties to Russia. No wonder Dick Button was skeptical of Michelle's chances.

 

[Mathman]

However, she was not perfect and was often held up by judges. The fact that she placed 4th with this skate from 1999 is proof of that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHrORnPnpFU

I wouldn't say that this one performance is proof that she was often held up. You had the misfortune to see her at her worst rather than at her best. She was a little under the weather here, poor thing.

However (setting aside messing up two of the three jumping passes ), that Fate of Carmen program was a choreographic gem when properly executed. More mature than the renowned 1998 Rachmanov short, yet sort of kicky, even avant garde for the time. (In fact, it had some literal high kicks standing on her toe picks, a new choreographic element for her that year.) The basic quality of her skating kept her ahead of some who made fewer technical mistakes.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Slutskaya judges:

Fabio Bianchetti, Italy.
Adrianna Domanska, Slovakia
Lovorka Kodrin, Croatia
Igor Dolgushin, Russia
Irina Absallamova, Belorus
Hanna Then, Poland

Kwan judges:

Judit Furst-Tombar, Hungary (She was later kicked out of the ISU for opposing Speedy in the WSF fiasco.)
Philippe Meriguet, France
Marianne Oeverby, Sweden

There were no judges from North America or Asia.

So except for Italy (Cinquanta's country), there were five judges from the so-called "Slavic Bloc," all of whom voted for Irina. And three judges outside the that bloc, all of whom voted for Michelle.

Well, that doesn't prove anything. I thought Irina should have won, too. Stiil…when the Soviet Union broke up a lot of the judges for various Eastern European countries were Russian nationals, ethnic Russians, or people brought up int the Russian system with ties to Russia. No wonder Dick Button was skeptical of Michelle's chances.

The original quote from carriecmu0503 was: "The 2002 Worlds panel had SIX Russian judges on it." That a European judge votes for Slutskaya does not make him (or her) Russian.

 

[Mathman]

The original quote from carriecmu0503 was: "The 2002 Worlds panel had SIX Russian judges on it." That a European judge votes for Slutskaya does not make him (or her) Russian.

I think that's a little nit-picky in the context. The point is that Dick Button could look at the line-up of judges and see five Russian-y judges that would probably go for Slutskaya (as sure enough, they did), and none that would be expected a priori to line up in the Michelle camp.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I think that's a little nit-picky in the context. The point is that Dick Button could look at the line-up of judges and see five Russian-y judges that would probably go for Slutskaya (as sure enough, they did), and none that would be expected a priori to line up in the Michelle camp.

I have no problem with that, if he also ever pointed out times when panels would favor a US skater over another country's.

 

[Mathman]

I have no problem with that, if he also ever pointed out times when panels would favor a US skater over another country's.

In the context of the breakup of the Soviet Union, I think it would be hard to find such examples. Canada and the United States are not exactly figure skating allies, nor would it strike fear in the heart of an Eastern European skater to see Japan, Denmark, or whoever, when skating against an American. (France would be welcome. )

Maybe by 2002 it didn't matter so much, but in the 1990s the hew and cry was always along the lines, "This isn't fair! It would be like if we could send a judge from New York and another judge from California and another judge from Texas to be seated at worlds!"

 

[jenaj]

Well, most people know that I have seen Michelle skate live twice. Let me assure you that Michelle's "Flutz" did exist. I like Michelle and more than that, I respect her longevity and the way she's moved forward with her very successful life. However, she was not perfect and was often held up by judges. The fact that she placed 4th with this skate from 1999 is proof of that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHrORnPnpFU

I think at most Michelle had a !--but not always. In any event, wrong-edge lutzes were almost always overlooked under 6.0, which made it irrelevant whether she flutzed or not. The point was that she didn't get second place because of her lutz. She got it because an all-European panel was going to place Irina first unless she had a total meltdown. Her awful SLC free skate would have placed first at this event. As Dick Button said regarding Michelle's chances, "not with this panel."

 

[jenaj]

In the context of the breakup of the Soviet Union, I think it would be hard to find such examples. Canada and the United States are not exactly figure skating allies, nor would it strike fear in the heart of an Eastern European skater to see Japan, Denmark, or whoever, when skating against an American. (France would be welcome. )

Maybe by 2002 it didn't matter so much, but in the 1990s the hew and cry was always along the lines, "This isn't fair! It would be like if we could send a judge from New York and another judge from California and another judge from Texas to be seated at worlds!"

No panel ever favored a US skater because of national favoritism. US judges were not reliable votes for their own country's skaters, unlike Russian or Canadian judges.