Unfair Judging | Page 6 | Golden Skate

Unfair Judging

I am just terrible at articulating, so apologies. I am not quite sure what you mean....what I meant was that I had hard time seeing those easy steps (inside 3's) as making the jump more difficult when I knew it was helping the skater and so I was being subjective.....lol...does that answer your question?

Yes, I think you answered my question. :)

Hope you don't mind I pick your brain a bit more... Does it happen that a judges' personal skating experience may (consciously or unconsciously) affect his/her judgement of the more subjective parts of the scoring system? For example, could it be that (s)he had had a harder time 3-turn entries than telegraphing a loop, and therefore be more spontaneous with doling out positive GOEs for 3-turn entries? Or, (s)he may have grown up with ballet and skating intertwined in his/her life, and be more inclined towards a balletic style of skating?

I would hope that the rigorous judges' training will eliminate these kinds of subjective tendencies. To what extent is it the case?
 
Yes, I think you answered my question. :)

Hope you don't mind I pick your brain a bit more... Does it happen that a judges' personal skating experience may (consciously or unconsciously) affect his/her judgement of the more subjective parts of the scoring system? For example, could it be that (s)he had had a harder time 3-turn entries than telegraphing a loop, and therefore be more spontaneous with doling out positive GOEs for 3-turn entries? Or, (s)he may have grown up with ballet and skating intertwined in his/her life, and be more inclined towards a balletic style of skating?

I would hope that the rigorous judges' training will eliminate these kinds of subjective tendencies. To what extent is it the case?

Excellent questions and points. I can only speak for myself though, and not other judges. The answer is yes that there is conscious and unconscious subjectivity. And the answer is also yes, that training and knowing and applying the rules and criteria of IJS eliminates a lot of it. But not all of it.

Does it happen that a judges' personal skating experience may (consciously or unconsciously) affect his/her judgement of the more subjective parts of the scoring system? For example, could it be that (s)he had had a harder time 3-turn entries than telegraphing a loop, and therefore be more spontaneous with doling out positive GOEs for 3-turn entries?

Yes. This is exactly what I did. Projected my own person experience with the loop onto another skater.
 
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We would not need a whole panel of judges if judging can be totally objective, in which case a computer or robot could take over the job. As it is, there are 9 judges at an ISU event and the highest and lowest scores are discarded. Essentially, an approximate consensus is taken to be the final score, and "out of corridor" scores are to be examined. Subjectivity is assumed and objectivity is attempted by the mean of the majority with the outliers rejected. Pretty much that's how the society functions. The pioneering innovators are usually rejected along with the laggards but the treasured stability is maintained. The majority expert opinions and prevailing beliefs are assumed to be right, subject to slow changes and progress unless forced to accept or adapt to radical changes in reality.
 
Excellent questions and points. I can only speak for myself though, and not other judges. The answer is yes that there is conscious and unconscious subjectivity. And the answer is also yes, that training and knowing and applying the rules and criteria of IJS eliminates a lot of it. But not all of it.

Does it happen that a judges' personal skating experience may (consciously or unconsciously) affect his/her judgement of the more subjective parts of the scoring system? For example, could it be that (s)he had had a harder time 3-turn entries than telegraphing a loop, and therefore be more spontaneous with doling out positive GOEs for 3-turn entries?

Yes. This is exactly what I did. Projected my own person experience with the loop onto another skater.

What you did was valid and valuable as a contribution to the judging. That's why personal skating experience at a certain level is a prerequisite to being a judge.
 
What you did was valid and valuable as a contribution to the judging. That's why personal skating experience at a certain level is a prerequisite to being a judge.

Thank you Violet Bliss. I tell you, as a figure skating fanatic for approx. 40 years, I thought a knew almost everything about figure skating. Wrong. Learning to judge was extremely humbling. And I learned that I am a much better fan!
 
Thank you Violet Bliss. I tell you, as a figure skating fanatic for approx. 40 years, I thought a knew almost everything about figure skating. Wrong. Learning to judge was extremely humbling. And I learned that I am a much better fan!

:clap:

Much respect for your contributions to skating, and much appreciation for your candor in discussing the challenges that judges face.
 
I don't have any judging experience at all, but I have always been thinking those long setup (later I learned it is called the 3 turns) for loop jumps, look ugly, and makes a skater somehow already rotate in the ground before they rotate in air, hence making the jumps easier. Intuitively it makes perfect sense, and I agree it should be counted as difficult entry. An "out of nowhere" loop should be rewarded instead.

This actually brought another level of subjectivity: the rules are subjectively made, even when a judge can perfectly follow the rules (being objective).

Me again. I just want to acknowledge that there is subjectivity in judging. A minor example of this; in one of the post competition discussions, it was noted that I had not given a skater a +GOE on a double loop jump. I gave her a 0 GOE which means from me, she received the full base value of the jump. The skater had performed several 3 turns before the jump and thus it was considered to have been done "out of footwork/steps" and or "woven into the choreography" and thus deserved a +GOE, all other jump criteria having been met. I disagreed with this. When I was a skater, the loop was my hardest jump. It just didn't compute for me and I could not get any elevation. Coach suggested i perform several 3 turns before in order to "mimic" the jump entry and give me more momentum. It worked. So, in MY mind, these 3 turns are an assist which actually make the jump easier and not more difficult. So, just a small example based on my own skating experience. Is it better to have the 3 turns and not telegraph the jump? Yes. But it took me awhile to think that way.
 
Not that I know of. This year's required jump out of steps in the junior SP is the loop, so let's keep our eyes open for impressive entries.
 
It peeves my OCD everytime I see footage from the cricket club because without the boards it just seems so odd. I know it's me but it just feels so unnatural. :otopic:

I'll continue my negative rant by saying the "stars" entry into spins getting positive GOE isn't something I'd be likely to give as a judge. Especially when several of them are performed without some sort of flying entry. It reminds me of something an injured animal would do. Maybe one day I'll change my mind....I used to hate half loop combos now I'm like...whatevs :)
 
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It peeves my OCD everytime I see footage from the cricket club because without the boards it just seems so odd. I know it's me but it just feels so unnatural. :otopic:

I'll continue my negative rant by saying the "stars" entry into spins getting positive GOE isn't something I'd be likely to give as a judge. Especially when several of them are performed without some sort of flying entry. It reminds me of something an injured animal would do. Maybe one day I'll change my mind....I used to hate half loop combos now I'm like...whatevs :)
It certainly looks different without boards, but it must help to have lots of room for skaters to get on or off the ice without bottle-necks?
 
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Fascinating.

Not to discredit your judgement or anything, but doesn't what you just described support the case that the criteria "done out of steps" is indeed objective, whereas a criteria of the form "done out of steps that makes the jump harder" is subjective?
I think this is an interesting question. Does the 'done out of steps' criteria explicitly necessitate increasing the difficulty of the jump itself? Since it appears that it is subjective what makes a jump more difficult for different skaters and also for what type of jumps, should the judging of the GOE actually include perceived increase or decrease in difficulty of execution?

Re-reading kittysk8s post, it seems like it should not be that way, which would make sense. I've never thought about this type of subjectivity before so that's an interesting point. It almost makes it seem like having no experience in skating would help to increase objectivity since it would just be checking things off a list instead of over-thinking the actual process and difficulty of execution.
 
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I think this is an interesting question. Does the 'done out of steps' criteria explicitly necessitate increasing the difficulty of the jump itself? Since it appears that it is subjective what makes a jump more difficult for different skaters and also for what type of jumps, should the judging of the GOE actually include perceived increase or decrease in difficulty of execution?

Re-reading kittysk8s post, it seems like it should not be that way, which would make sense. I've never thought about this type of subjectivity before so that's an interesting point. It almost makes it seem like having no experience in skating would help to increase objectivity since it would just be checking things off a list instead of over-thinking the actual process and difficulty of execution.

The spirit of the law supercedes the letter of the law. The implied increased difficulty of steps before a jump is the reason for bonus points. 3 turns before a Loop jump actually makes the jump easier, at least for some skaters, in the experience of at least one judge, who may decide to go with the spirit of the law and not reward GOE. If other judges have different experiences or opinions based on most skaters' experiences, then their rewarding the points balances or overrides the judge who feels otherwise. Or they may have no personal opinions and go with the letter of the law and give GOE according to the objective observation of the fact that there were steps as entry into the jump.

That's why there is a panel of judges.
 
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Kittysk8s
:clap::clap: huge thanks!


& when i saw Polina T unfavouravbly compared to Polina E :jaw:
now I've seen it all...
 
I think this is an interesting question. Does the 'done out of steps' criteria explicitly necessitate increasing the difficulty of the jump itself? Since it appears that it is subjective what makes a jump more difficult for different skaters and also for what type of jumps, should the judging of the GOE actually include perceived increase or decrease in difficulty of execution?

There are two different bullet points that could apply:

1) unexpected/creative/difficult entry
2) clear recognizable (difficult for jump preceded by steps/movements of the Short Program) steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element

If the skater is doing something that many skaters have done before (e.g., running threes into a loop jump ever since Slutskaya popularized that entry 20 years ago, or more recently choctaw-choctaw on shallow edges heading into a lutz), the steps would no longer be unexpected or creative as would have been the case when such entries were rare. But even that could be debatable, because some judges might see a lot of skaters do it at the competitions they judge and watch on video for pleasure or learning, and others might not have seen it very much and still consider it creative.

"Difficult" will also have borderline or gray areas for different judges, in part based on what was easier or harder for them in their own skating experience. Or just thinking "Well, it's a little more difficult than a plain vanilla entry, but is it enough added difficulty to merit a bullet point?" If it's something unusual but not particularly creative, each judge would have to make that decision for herself.

As for the clear recognizable moves immediately preceding the jump, the requirement is just that they be immediately preceding, not (in most cases) that they be difficult. By nature, BO-FI-BO three turns into a loop will immediately precede the loop, so they meet the immediately preceding requirement.

Anything where there could be pause in the rhythm between the steps/moves and the takeoff to allow the skater to reposition the body before jumping, if the pause is more than a second or so it would not be immediate, but it could be difficult.

So difficult moves . . . pause . . . jump could earn bullet point 1. (So could a creative approach even if it's not very difficult.)

Easy moves immediately into the jump could earn bullet point 2.

Unless it's the short program jump out of steps, in which case the preceding steps are a required part of the element so they don't earn bullet point 2 unless they're difficult, and a significant pause would be cause for a -1 or -2 reduction, which could cancel out bullet point 1.

The recommendation is two positive bullet points for +1, four for +2, six or more for +3.

If both of those bullet points apply (difficult and immediately preceding, or unexpected/creative and immediately preceding for anything but the SP solo jump), then a +1 is warranted, assuming there's nothing negative about the rest of the jump. If the entry earns two bullet points but then there are problems with the air or landing phases, then the negatives could cancel out the plus and the jump could end up with 0 or -1 or -2 after subtracting the appropriate reductions from the +1.

If only bullet 1 or bullet 2 applies but not the other, then there should be something explicitly good about the rest of the jump (bullets 3-8) to qualify as +1.

Easy, unimaginative steps or moves immediately preceding a just-adequate jump would only earn one bullet point -- none for the SP solo jump -- so in that case the GOE should probably be 0.
 
in my opinion, so far, the best russian new girl they got is Samodurova, who I think the federation thought she could compete with the top Japanese girls in Yokohama, that's why they sent her there, but even her best was not good enough to contend with the the top three that night (so that says a lot about the new crop of russian girls, just average, and yes, before anyone barks at me, it's just my lowly opinion). And I'm not even saying the Japanese girls are that good, just a little better than the russians at the moment. Again, just my lowly opinion from a subjective skating fan...

Ok. So the Russian girls are average..the Japanese girls are a little bit better but forgettable...Who are the remarkable girls now? I'm really curious...
 
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