Unfair Judging

[Violet Bliss]

why not ? Figure skating as other sports (especially based on judging assessment) are political dependent. So, I would like to know to whom I discuss.
As, for sex indication, it also would be useful. I would like to know whether the person who wrote (during Boston WC) that Radionova is ugly with her big head and short neck, is woman (probably) or man (unlikely)

You want a short cut to their mindsets? So you can make assumptions?

Projecting much? People reveal themselves the most when they project their mindsets to others. Generally, it is very hard for someone to conceive or comprehend a higher level of consciousness or a higher mode of operation.

 

[gkelly]

Honestly though, I'm curious as to what the process for becoming a certified ISU judge is? Can anyone just study up and get certified? I've always wondered, and I've googled competition judges to try to find their credentials and I can never find anything.

To become an ISU judge, a candidate has to be nominated by their federation to attend seminars and take written and practical exams.
They have to be "eligible persons," although the restrictions that make someone "professional" or or "ineligible" are a lot less strict than 30+ years ago. And they have to be at least 24 but not yet 50 years old to get the first appointment.

They have to have judged national competitions in their home countries; if I understand the rulebook correctly there are trial judging opportunities for potential international judges who didn't come up through a robust national program at home.

There are two levels of appointments: International Judge and ISU Judge. Judges must have ISU appointments to judge at Olympics, ISU events (does that mean the four ISU championships?), and the Olympic qualifying competition. International Judges could judge any other international events.

Different federations will have different criteria for deciding who to support for international appointments, and international assignments once they have the appointments. It will vary greatly depending on how big the federation is and how long it's been around, whether there are plenty of former competitors in competition with each other for those opportunities, or whether a brand new federation will have to fined anyone who is willing to put in the time and travel to learn, in many cases at their own expense.

(Don't forget that judging is a volunteer activity. )

What it takes to be a national judge, which would be necessary before becoming an international one, would also vary from federation to federation.

Posters above have mentioned the US system: see http://usfigureskating.org/story?id=89433. You don't have to be a skater to become a judge in the US, although it takes longer for a non-skater to learn what you need to know. But non-skaters are not going to become national judges in the US much less get recommended for international appointments.

all technical specailists are former skaters or have skated before either by low level or on elite level
contrary a coach can be certified even he hasn't skated himself all his life.

I think you mean a judge can be certified even he hasn't skated himself?

 

[cl2]

I've had several discussions one on one with IJS judges and have worked with and attended seminars with people from USFSA which has allowed me to discuss things with these people not unlike we do here although I tend to be more mature : They aren't dissimilar from us and probably are amongst us at GS. I can't share specific insight but I find it easy to discuss things with them and for the most part everyone seems to do what they think is in the best interest of the sport. Quite honestly...it's the local stuff that we never discuss that makes the real difference.

I imagine the lower level competitions (or the "local stuff") must be a challenge to judge. That is when the skaters are all at differing stages of their skating development, and judges have to be extra careful to weigh the various strengths and weaknesses to make a fair judgement, and at the same time encourage skaters who ranked high without sending false positive messages, yet not discourage skaters who ranked low. It's quite an onus, methinks.

 

[karne]

I imagine the lower level competitions (or the "local stuff") must be a challenge to judge. That is when the skaters are all at differing stages of their skating development, and judges have to be extra careful to weigh the various strengths and weaknesses to make a fair judgement, and at the same time encourage skaters who ranked high without sending false positive messages, yet not discourage skaters who ranked low. It's quite an onus, methinks.

Agreed - this is particularly difficult. The judges always want to do the right thing by the skaters. But at the same time, particularly at those lower levels, they walk a fine balance between encouraging a skater to continue and allowing poor technique to be built.

 

[gkelly]

I imagine the lower level competitions (or the "local stuff") must be a challenge to judge. That is when the skaters are all at differing stages of their skating development, and judges have to be extra careful to weigh the various strengths and weaknesses to make a fair judgement, and at the same time encourage skaters who ranked high without sending false positive messages, yet not discourage skaters who ranked low. It's quite an onus, methinks.

You get differing stages of development, or different levels of ability, in international competition too. JGPs are very wide because newer/smaller federations with few skaters will send anyone they've got who meets the age requirements and can attempt a double axel (or, in the most extreme cases, who can attempt any double jumps at all), whereas top federations and medium-small federations who happen to have a prodigy that year might send skaters who are good enough to be competitive at the top senior events but either too young or further back in line behind other skaters from the same country who are just as good or better.

For instance, at the JGP Mordovia Ladies FS that inspired this thread, there were 28 competitors. The highest program component score was an 8.00 by one judge (the panel averaged 7.25 for that component). The lowest component score given by any judge was 1.25 to a couple of the bottom-ranked skaters in the event (averages mostly in the 2s). That's a wider range than you'd see at most local or lower level events, just because there's no one good enough to deserve scores in the 7s (or 6s or 5s or sometimes 4s) at most events.

Even at Worlds, where skaters of lower skill levels are weeded out by the minimum technical scores, the PCS in the 2016 ladies short program ranged from 4.00 to 9.75.

With IJS, the judges aren't scoring the skaters against each other so much as against their mental standards for each PCS number, and for the plus and minus GOEs. The base values/technical panel calls are not comparative at all.

Nationally, most federations have some way of splitting the events by age and/or skill level so that lower level skaters are mostly competing against others who are relatively close in ability. I know most about how it's done in the US. Lots of different competition levels at the lowest levels (which don't use IJS), so the difference between the best and the worst in a group is usually smaller. But that presents its own challenge for judges to distinguish among several skaters who are all pretty similar.

At the higher (IJS) levels within the US, you will see large differences in ability at large competitions like regionals -- only the good ones move on to sectionals and Nationals, especially in the ladies event.

 

[gmyers]

When the ISU host was reviewing Nugumanova's FS, he kept referring to her jumps as underrotated, one after another. Yet she got just ONE ur. In the SP, she got URs on two out of three jumps.

I was shocked when she got the highest FS score of all, as even to my eyes, many of her jumps were underrotated. She was behind Shiraiwa in the SP, so clearly, her score was "engineered" to ensure she got on the podium.

This event should have been thrilling, but it was as blah as leftover, lukewarm soup.

Why oh why won't the ISU fix these Horrible problems that you talk about every year! Why are Russians winning so many events and untalented Russian girls allowed to be successful and have events fixed for them?!?

 

[Sugarpova]

99% of the threads on this forum are about this

lmao I like that this post has so many likes :agree::agree:

no way should Yuna have scored above Liza
even with 'SO MANY URS' her performance ability just lights up my screen!
& like some ppl said in the FS thread even if she was dinged with more URs she still would have been 1st

 

[Alex D]

It is pretty hard to be a judge, you have a very small amount of time and a lot of pressure, even more this season than before.
Judges might also value different things at a skater, as for example with Adelina at Sochi or Sarah at Salt lake City. The judges were overwhelmed by the audience and the postive skating by both, so they gave them these super scores / placements, that might have been lower at a not so emotional atmosphere.

It can also play a major role if you sit directly at the ice, at home or under the roof.

In the end, no subjective scoring system can always be "fair", as we all have a different background or idea about the things we see. Don´t take this out on the judges or skaters, it´s in the nature of things.

 

[moriel]

And well, once can consider fair if a skater gives such a performance that it overwhelm audience and judges and results in higher scores. After all, that surely means the performance was great.

Fair is tricky. Here on GS, i see many unfair judging = "my fav skater didnt win gold"

 

[noidont]

Nugumanova's jumps were underrotated sure, but I see them less than 45 degrees underrotated meaning no < call. I think people (and sometimes even judges) associate any "hooked landing" with UR, which is incorrect, since underrotations under 45 degrees should not be called UR. If you compare Nugumanova with Lozko, you would see the difference is major.

 

[Skater Boy]

And well, once can consider fair if a skater gives such a performance that it overwhelm audience and judges and results in higher scores. After all, that surely means the performance was great.

Fair is tricky. Here on GS, i see many unfair judging = "my fav skater didnt win gold"

So true. Judging is in the eye of the beholder. Fairness is when you get what you want or think should happen.

 

[moriel]

So true. Judging is in the eye of the beholder. Fairness is when you get what you want or think should happen.

I guess this is why there are 9 judges. But it is still hard to accept your oppinion is different from the average one, specially in a subjective thing as art and performance.

I just ignore scores judges give and take in account the order. If you feel that skater A deserves gold, skater B deserves silver and skater C deserves bronze, nitpicking their scores will just upset you hehe because "hmmm, A should have that jump called because it was borderline and i feel it was UR, but got underscored in PCs" and blablabla
It makes things so much easier lols, because i dont have to worry about Worldflation and other things like that =D

 

[Violet Bliss]

Though TMC's claim that 99% of GS threads are about unfair judging is not too far from reality, I don't recall dedicated threads initiated by a Junior GP event. Would the OP's outrage and passion swell for major Senior events? :think:

Thanks to this thread, I actually watched the Junior Ladies's performances under discussion and was pleased to see the young talents. :thumbsup: I think, however, podium sweeps are not so out of the realm of probabilities because best skaters are usually selected for home events, and home ice advantages such as audience support and circumvention of the stress and physical effects of travel are likely even more critical for the less experienced young ones than for seasoned Seniors. Federations arranging revenges and spites using young talents nurtured for future glory as pawns seem rather improbable.

 

[chuckm]

Why oh why won't the ISU fix these Horrible problems that you talk about every year! Why are Russians winning so many events and untalented Russian girls allowed to be successful and have events fixed for them?!?

I'm not saying the Russian girl was untalented---her skating was overall excellent, but she did underrotate several jumps in her FS and the caller "saw" just one. It isn't fair to the other skaters, since many got URs that affected their scores, but this one got the highest score in the competition, and that is just not right. Tsurskaya, even with her faults in the FS, is a far, far better skater and IMO should have won the FS as well as the competition.

 

[topaz emerald]

Hey there , i dont know if there is a thread like that anywhere else in this forum , but after watching todays ladies free skate junior in Saransk and after the previous jgp in Yokohama in Japan i got really REALLY frustrated. We have here a russian sweep in the podium while all the three ladies didnt skate well in the free programm. Of course , Polina had the 10+ points more so it is fair to be first. But Konstatinova 110 ???? REALLY ? with 2 falls and so many other problems ? Or Nugumanova with so many URs ? Yuna deserved to be on the podium , she was almost clean and should have get better PCS. The same thing with Samudorova back in Japan who was stolen a medal because then we had a japan sweep. I dont know . This seems ridiculous to me. This is sport. Not politics. Once people understand how unfair the judging has become , i believee that their absence will bring changes in the judging! I am waiting for your responses. Thank you .

Chuckm, until there is another quality skater like Yuna Kim (and I was never a fan of hers but even I can differentiate a quality skater over another), the russians and japanese federations will get what they want and do what they like. But even then, it didn't stop them from giving the gold in Sochi to what's her name? I seriously cannot remember her name

 

[topaz emerald]

I guess its was a federation message, Samodurova out of medals ? fine Shiraiwa is out of medals too....

To me, it was a toss between Samodurova and the other Japanese girl (sorry, forgot her name) for third place in Yokohama....so judging was FAIR in yokohama. However, in Saransk, judging is totally biased and messed up. It's completely about politics.

 

[chloepoco]

Chuckm, until there is another quality skater like Yuna Kim (and I was never a fan of hers but even I can differentiate a quality skater over another), the russians and japanese federations will get what they want and do what they like. But even then, it didn't stop them from giving the gold in Sochi to what's her name? I seriously cannot remember her name

 

[Biellmann]

Chuckm, until there is another quality skater like Yuna Kim (and I was never a fan of hers but even I can differentiate a quality skater over another), the russians and japanese federations will get what they want and do what they like. But even then, it didn't stop them from giving the gold in Sochi to what's her name? I seriously cannot remember her name

Your problem

 

[topaz emerald]

in my opinion, so far, the best russian new girl they got is Samodurova, who I think the federation thought she could compete with the top Japanese girls in Yokohama, that's why they sent her there, but even her best was not good enough to contend with the the top three that night (so that says a lot about the new crop of russian girls, just average, and yes, before anyone barks at me, it's just my lowly opinion). And I'm not even saying the Japanese girls are that good, just a little better than the russians at the moment. Again, just my lowly opinion from a subjective skating fan...

 

[Violet Bliss]

To me, it was a toss between Samodurova and the other Japanese girl (sorry, forgot her name) for third place in Yokohama....so judging was FAIR in yokohama. However, in Saransk, judging is totally biased and messed up. It's completely about politics.

Explain the politics please. I don't mean of course the easily assumed national and federation preferences, but how they actually brought about the desired results. Why was this panel of judges easier to buy or manipulate than the one in Japan? And why were they bolder? Any convincing circumstantial evidences for your postulations?