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2016-17 State of Japanese Ladies Skating
- Thread starter TheGrandSophy
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- Feb 25, 2014
It seems to me that because of, really, her only bad skate of the 2013-2014 season - Sochi SP - is making people forget that she scored around 73 for EVERY SP she did that season, and in the high 130s for FS. Mao on her good days can and should beat most of the ladies. Certainly Gracie and Ashley, as well as most of the Russians. The fact that Ashley Wagner (yes, Ashley Wagner of all people) can get the highest skating skills in a world championships and that Mao is ranked in the same component tier as someone as sloppy as Elena Radionova shows that there is seriously something wrong with the rationale behind judging. Many ladies get the benefit of the doubt but Mao rarely has and rarely does, not to mention the numerous incorrect UR calls she gets on 3F+3Lo. Do judges/tech panel even know what they're doing?? AND how fair is it that skaters like Satoko who so egregiously pre-rotates her jumps can score on the order of almost 5-10 points more than Mao on technical elements?? That seriously needs to be looked at because calling some skaters for UR but not calling others for pre-rotation is NOT fair...
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I don't see the point in singling out Satoko, since no one is called for pre-rotation within the current rules. I have more of an issue with inconsistent edge calls, where you have skaters like Mao selectively punished while other skaters' flutzes and lips are almost never called.
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- Feb 25, 2014
I thought a jump analysis for Mao had already been done. She doesn't have an exemplary technique either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR8GH_rtoNc
Why does Satoko score on the order of almost 5-10 points more than Mao? Because not only does she have a 3Lz-3T but she always completes her base value and most of the generous GOEs she gets are from spins and step sequences. Last season, Mao almost never completed her base value because she had to rely on the 3A. There's no solid 3-3 to save her in case she doesn't hit the 3A and she also insisted on jumping a correct lutz - which often leaded to pops.
Does this really look like an incorrect UR call?
https://youtu.be/1-YCbEnBSp4?t=1m
I really don't understand the vitriol some Mao fans are throwing at Satoko, really. Mao just didn't have a good season. If she'd had a good season and still scored behind Satoko then I would have understood and agreed with your criticism. But it wasn't like that so it's not fair to analyze clean Satoko vs mistake-filled Mao and then just pick on Satoko... for skating clean?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR8GH_rtoNc
Why does Satoko score on the order of almost 5-10 points more than Mao? Because not only does she have a 3Lz-3T but she always completes her base value and most of the generous GOEs she gets are from spins and step sequences. Last season, Mao almost never completed her base value because she had to rely on the 3A. There's no solid 3-3 to save her in case she doesn't hit the 3A and she also insisted on jumping a correct lutz - which often leaded to pops.
Does this really look like an incorrect UR call?
https://youtu.be/1-YCbEnBSp4?t=1m
I really don't understand the vitriol some Mao fans are throwing at Satoko, really. Mao just didn't have a good season. If she'd had a good season and still scored behind Satoko then I would have understood and agreed with your criticism. But it wasn't like that so it's not fair to analyze clean Satoko vs mistake-filled Mao and then just pick on Satoko... for skating clean?
Mao's technique may not be perfect, but this is a bad example. The maker of that video does not seem to understand the mechanics of a loop jump.
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- Feb 25, 2014
In that case, Satoko has the same loop technique yet hers happens to be egregiously pre-rotated.
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- Dec 29, 2011
It's true that Mao doesn't have exemplary technique, but THAT video is what you would use to proof that?
Satoko's 3Lo isn't that much of a problem. I don't think it's a great jump, but it gets full rotation (I'd say the same for her 3S and 2A). The problem jumps are the toe jumps (with the 3Lz being way better than the 3F, and the 3T also being better after a 2A than after a 3Lz).
Regarding Mao vs. Satoko: it's true that singling out Satoko isn't fair. But the main problem is that the system currently calls out underrotation, but not pre-rotation, which leads to some jumps being called < although they have more actual rotation in the air than others. You can't fault people for being angry about that.
(That said, Satoko also did get away with some not called URs last season. It's not fair to turn the anger about that on Satoko, and not the judges, but it's certainly not fair either that some skaters are being judged stricter than others. Also see Gracies lip, Evgenias flutz, IMO Ashlays 3-3 at worlds...)
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- Feb 25, 2014
There's also a second video of her 3F-3Lo, showing the fact that she can't jump that combo anymore without an obvious UR on the loop. I'm not faulting people for being angry about the system, I'm faulting people who make Satoko the poster girl of the system. There is an incorrect edge rule that exists in the system and is not being used properly, yet most people focus on a rule that doesn't exist (yet): excessive PR. If the wrong edge rule isn't used properly then what guarantees the fact that a PR rule would? As long as the sport is judged subjectively, there will always be faults. Just a little bit over 10 years ago the system didn't care about UR (we had World and Olympic champions with questionable jumps) let alone PR. So when I read comments like "Miyahara winning Worlds would be a disgrace for the sport" I can't help rolling my eyes. If she were to win Worlds it would hardly be the biggest disgrace figure skating has seen. And yes, I see Gracie's lip, Evgenia's flutz, Ashley's 3-3 but do they get separate special threads where people actively criticize or complain about them? Are their groups of critics bigger than their groups of supporters? No way.It's true that Mao doesn't have exemplary technique, but THAT video is what you would use to proof that?
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- Dec 29, 2011
Oh please post it, I would like to see that video that proofs this fact, that Mao can't do any rotated 3-3Lo combos. Not just apparently that one as an example wasn't rotated, but that she simply can't jump it anymore... when she got it ratified for example at 2014 worlds.
Regarding you're last part... that makes it sound as if everything was better if just more skaters got hate (although I'm sure it's not what you mean). I'd say Gracie for example gets plenty of criticisms on here. Not for her lip (although that was called out several times), but for the rest of her skating. Also, Satoko's 3-3Ts and 3F being problematic but often not called is a bigger issue than Evgenia having a flutz for example, since it's 4 elements per competition vs. 1.
Absolutely.
I don't understand the point that you are trying to make with these clips of Mao, no one has contested the UR call she got for the 3F-3Lo in the CoC SP and we already know that she is prone to underrotations, it has been discussed ad nauseam on this forum since the beginning of time.
Mao's flutz used to generate that same kind of hyperbole around here before Sochi ("It's the worst flutz ever! It's ruining figure skating! It should be worth 0 points!"), so make of that what you will
.
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- Feb 13, 2014
I agree. Mao has been the target of attack for her jumps technique for years ever before 2010. I don't get the reasoning that "Mao does not get much attack like Satoko".Absolutely.
I don't understand the point that you are trying to make with these clips of Mao, no one has contested the UR call she got for the 3F-3Lo in the CoC SP and we already know that she is prone to underrotations, it has been discussed ad nauseam on this forum since the beginning of time.
Mao's flutz used to generate that same kind of hyperbole around here before Sochi ("It's the worst flutz ever! It's ruining figure skating! It should be worth 0 points!"), so make of that what you will
ESPN even bashed Mao for flutzing, on their news. That's a technical error many ladies have. But they only bash mao as if that's the biggest sin in the world. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve8_YkAHVzk
If anything, I'd say Mao has been the subject of most attack ever. I bet Satoko won't get a whole television program bashing her like that. And unless ISU changed the rule for pre-rotation, no commentators will tell the audience about Satoko's pre-rotation at all.
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- Feb 25, 2014
Regarding my last part you're conveniently ignoring the real issue by choosing to twist my words.
Oh I'm sure you do.
I don't think that this is what ioanna was saying, she was talking about other skaters and I was the one who brought up Mao.
This shouldn't be a competition on who gets the most bashing. Discussions about judging or technical issues can be carried out without blaming the skaters.
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I didn't ignore any real issue... if you mean the "if Satoko were to win worlds part, it would be a disgrace" - I never said that, and I didn't think it necessary to comment on that, since I agree it's nonsense.
However, your "Satoko is getting so much more criticism than others" is still wrong to me, I said that, I still think so.
And you still own me a video regarding Mao's 3F3Lo
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- Mar 5, 2014
I think it is quite provocative to feign authority by saying that it is a fact that Mao can't jump the 3 F / 3L anymore without obvious ur when so many general viewers see the beauty of a unique combo only done by Mao, and who don't take the time or care to analyze the combo in instant replay with the biased, double standard eyes of the tech crew who let others off the hook with just as much or even less rotation in their easier backend combos, especially since the nature of the backend loop jump makes rotation more difficult in the first place.
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- Feb 25, 2014
Make up your mind.
You mean owe? I said she can't jump 3F-3Lo without the loop getting an UR call (or the flip) anymore, I'm not talking about 2013-2014 and the seasons before that. I'm talking now, I'm talking from now on. I don't need videos to explain my statement, the protocols from last season speak for themselves - unless they're not considered relevant because as some people in this thread have said, Mao has gotten the most attacks ever, including bogus judging at every competition she's been in.
Cup Of China - protocols
SP: 3F-3Lo<
FS: 3F-3Lo<
NHK Trophy protocols
SP: 3F-3Lo
FS: 3F<-2Lo
Grand Prix Final - protocols
SP: 3F<-3Lo<
FS: 2F (no combination)
Japanese Nationals - protocols
SP: 3F<-2Lo<<
FS: 3F (no combination)
Worlds - protocols
SP: 3F-2Lo
FS: 3F-3Lo<
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- Feb 25, 2014
Did I say I agree with the judges? I stated a fact: her 3F-3Lo has been getting UR calls all past season; the fact that it's beautiful and difficult to do doesn't change the opinion of the technical panel. My statement being contradictory to your belief that her UR calls are bogus doesn't mean I'm feigning authority.
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- Dec 29, 2011
Sorry, I'm not seeing the contradiction. Comments like the one quoted (disgrace if she won worlds) are nonsense and I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean Satoko is the only one to get criticized or attacked, or threads dedicated to your problems ect.
I know the protocols, she didn't land it in competition. But there are videos showing her landing it in practices - so she is capable of landing it, contrary to your claim that there is proof she can't. She didn't manage to nail it as part of a program, but she is generally still capable of rotating that 3Lo. (why ever you even wanted to proof she couldn't).
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- Feb 25, 2014
Perhaps I should have been clearer then. She can't do it anymore in competition without getting UR calls, which is what matters in the end.
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