2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating | Page 12 | Golden Skate

2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

noskates said:
Excuse me - ALL I STATED was that I didn't care for one skater as much as I did others. That was purely my very own opinion. There was no disrespect, there was no defamation, there was no sneakiness and there was no twisting of things. Maybe you should start reading your own posts before you challenge someone elses. Same old story - different day! i'm not the least bit tired but I am really bored.
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Shake it off, noskates. For 3 solid years, I was everyone's least favorite poster when I would cheer for Maria Butyrskaya when she went up against Michelle Kwan. As long as your opinions and feelings are genuine, people will begin to see that its who you love, and not the person they're competing with, that you're cheering for. Don't let it stop you from supporting your favorite skater.
 
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noskates said:
Hey, it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I'm not going to get into an argument about who is the best. I was merely stating who I liked the best. For the record, I've never been a big fan of Hanyu regardless of whether he had the most transitions and one foot skating of all the men. That doesn't necessarily equate to the best skating skills to me. I like smoothness and seamless transitions and I like a well-balanced program that doesn't just focus on how many quads you can throw. I just happen to find Javi, Patrick and Jason more pleasing to me.

Y'all can like who you want!:drama:
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I have no problem with who you like more or who you don't like. I have the problem with statement of skating skills level which has nothing to do with taste.
 
Raomina said:
I'm not sure, but are skating skills supposed to be subjective? I've always thought that it was one of the components (together with transitions), that are more objective and thus can be compared more readily.

In any case, this reminded me of a discussion that took place earlier this year where someone made a video of the top 10 2016 Worlds Men's SP with no jumps or spins, in the order of overall ranking by the judges, so that you can focus only on the transitions and aspects of the skating skills like speed and depth of edges.

Adam Rippon's starts here: https://youtu.be/yhGYrCe-fS4?t=5m31s
and Yuzuru Hanyu's starts here: https://youtu.be/yhGYrCe-fS4?t=16m25s

And also for comparison:
Patrick Chans's: https://youtu.be/yhGYrCe-fS4?t=12m42s
Javier Fernandez's: https://youtu.be/yhGYrCe-fS4?t=14m30s
Max Aaron's: https://youtu.be/yhGYrCe-fS4?t=3m38s (since this is the US Men's thread)
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Wow this video is really educational. You do see the difference in Skating Skills among these guys. Chan and Hanyu are in their own league!! Chan's depth of edge is phenomenal and Hanyu's speed, lightness and complexity...such highly refined skating from both of them.
 
Just like Patrick's SS were an inspiration for Yuzu, it'll be exciting to see if Yuzu's jumping prowess COMBINED with SS inspire the youngsters. Nathan and Boyang are obviously all about those quads for now (which is totally fair), and perhaps they will develop the excellent SS over time. Yuzu hasn't always had awesome SS, but he proved that you don't need to have SS training since childhood (like Patrick) to acquire them as you get older.

ETA: And to give Javi his due, his SS are among the best in the world, just a tier below Yuzu and Patrick. Which isn't a bad place to be. Plus, they get better every year.
 
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Those videos were really fun to watch. For an fun exercise, try watching that video without sound and upside down -- you can really see the depth of edge, direction, coverage, flow.

Out of the 10 featured in the video, here's how I order SS (actual score/ranking):

1.) Chan (9.57/2nd)
2.) Hanyu (9.89/ 1st)
3.) Uno (8.96/4th)
4.) Hernandez (9.14/ 3rd)
5.) Vasiljevs (7.61/9th)
6.) Koylada (7.71/8th)
7.) Jin (7.75/7th)
8.) Aaron (7.86/6th)
9.)Righini (7.5/10th)
10.) Rippon (8.32/5th - Sorry :slink:)

ETA: Denis Ten!! I forgot about him because he wasn't in the video cause he finished 11th. :cry: He's obviously up there too. He was 5th in SS with 8.36. I'd probably keep him there, or switch him with Javi

Honestly I could probably switch 6-8 depending on the day. Koylada has nice edges and flow, but need more speed. Jin and Aaron have great speed, but need more flow.

I watched Jason's SP (again no sound (yay, since it's Sam Smith) and upside down) right after I watched the Worlds video, and I'd put him 5th or 6th (ETA: probably 6th since I didn't include Denis Ten). He has good depth of edge, multi-directional skating and nice flow. He maintains speed throughout which is great, but he just needs more of it to compare to the top four. That's really not a bad place to be and he's probably right with the top men in other PCS categories, so he has good shot at getting top 5 (or even 4th) PCS overall, if not in SS.

(ETA 2: At Worlds 2015, Jason got the 4th highest PCS (obviously Chan wasn't there), but there was a huge gap between him (124.74) and the top three (Hanyu, 133.92; Javi, 133.17 and Ten, 130.93). What you will likely see is that judges will likely narrow the gap between him and the top 3; as noted below, he's already scored nearly 5 points from that competition to his best senior B this season).

As it stands, without Patrick/Yuzuru/Javi, and even with the relatively lower SS score in senior B's Jason's getting the highest PCS (42.10/86.50, U.S. Classic=128.6; 41.20/87 at Lombardia =129.1) right now. That said, at Lombardia, Shoma (41.45/85.90=127.35) scored above Jason in SS in both the SP and the FS (which Jason won by quite a clip), and rightfully so.

Since this is the U.S. men's thread, I'd say Jason and Ross Miner probably are the top in SS among the U.S. men's field. And though he is a junior internationally, Andrew Torgeshev should be up there. Aaron would be 4th, I think for speed. Since SS is only one component, Adam's PCS overall probably is OK (he got 124.9 at U.S. Classic), but I have to agree with others that his skating doesn't live up to the SS he's getting now. One thing I noticed with Adam is how much two-footed skating he does. He definitely should have not gotten the same SS score as Jason at U.S. Classic SP.
 
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Mrs. P said:
Those videos were really fun to watch. For an fun exercise, try watching that video without sound and upside down -- you can really see the depth of edge, direction, coverage, flow.

Out of the 10 featured in the video, here's how I order SS (actual score/ranking):

1.) Chan (9.57/2nd)
2.) Hanyu (9.89/ 1st)
3.) Uno (8.96/4th)
4.) Hernandez (9.14/ 3rd)
5.) Vasiljevs (7.61/9th)
6.) Koylada (7.71/8th)
7.) Jin (7.75/7th)
8.) Aaron (7.86/6th)
9.)Righini (7.5/10th)
10.) Rippon (8.32/5th - Sorry :slink:)

Honestly I could probably switch 6-8 depending on the day. Koylada has nice edges and flow, but need more speed. Jin and Aaron have great speed, but need more flow.

I watched Jason's SP (again no sound (yay, since it's Sam Smith) and upside down) right after I watched the Worlds video, and I'd put him 5th or 6th. He has good depth of edge, multi-directional skating and nice flow. He maintains speed throughout which is great, but he just needs more of it to compare to the top four. That's really not a bad place to be and he's probably right with the top men in other PCS categories, so he has good shot at easily getting top 5 (or top 4, even) PCS overall, if not in SS.

As it stands, without Patrick/Yuzuru/Javi, and even with the relatively lower SS score in senior B's Jason's getting the highest PCS (42.10/86.50, U.S. Classic=128.6; 41.20/87 at Lombardia =129.1) right now. That said, at Lombardia, Shoma (41.45/85.90=127.35) scored above Jason in SS in both the SP and the FS (which Jason won by quite a clip).

Since this is the U.S. men's thread, I'd say Jason and Ross Miner probably are the top in SS among the U.S. men's field. And though he is a junior internationally, Andrew Torgeshev should be up there. Aaron would be 4th, I think for speed. Since SS is only one component, Adam's PCS overall probably is OK (he got 124.9 at U.S. Classic), but I have to agree with others that his skating doesn't live up to the SS he's getting now. One thing I noticed with Adam is how much two-footed skating he does. He definitely should have not gotten the same SS score as Jason at U.S. Classic SP.
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Yes thanks to Raomina for reposting that compilation - really fun and instructive to watch. Of US men, in addition to Jason and Ross, I think Tim Dolensky and Alex Johsnson have really nice skating skills. I also noticed that Adam does a lot of two foot skating. As to Jason, I think part of what makes him look a bit slower in comparison to the very top guys is the nature of his footwork: he does a lot of changes of edge on one foot in succession, often turning in tight circles, combined with a lot of balance challenging moves. The top guys do these things too - just fewer of them. We often see Patrick, for example, holding one long beautiful inside edge before changing feet. Just an observation: I'm not arguing that Jason has skating skills equal to or better than Chan, Hanyu et al.
 
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Tavi... said:
Yes thanks to Raomina for reposting that compilation - really fun and instructive to watch. Of US men, in addition to Jason and Ross, I think Tim Dolensky and Alex Johsnson have really nice skating skills. I also noticed that Adam does a lot of two foot skating. As to Jason, I think part of what makes him look a bit slower in comparison to the very top guys is the nature of his footwork: he does a lot of changes of edge on one foot in succession, often turning in tight circles, combined with a lot of balance challenging moves. The top guys do these things too - just fewer of them. We often see Patrick, for example, holding one long beautiful inside edge before changing feet. Just an observation: I'm not arguing that Jason has skating skills equal to or better than Chan, Hanyu et al.
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I think it's a good move that Jason's team took out a lot of the MITF and transitions that they packed into his past programs, especially last season's SP. While it might have helped him get the PCS he was getting, it only highlighted how relatively slow he was to the top men, so it probably canceled out in the end. This season's programs seem like a good compromise: keep enough content to make it still challenging enough so he can develop that SS, but put it at a manageable level so he can incrase his speed.
 
Mrs. P said:
I think it's a good move that Jason's team took out a lot of the MITF and transitions that they packed into his past programs, especially last season's SP. While it might have helped him get the PCS he was getting, it only highlighted how relatively slow he was to the top men, so it probably canceled out in the end. This season's programs seem like a good compromise: keep enough content to make it still challenging enough so he can develop that SS, but put it at a manageable level so he can incrase his speed.
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I agree - I notice more of the MITF footwork in the FS (which is from last year) than in SP. He makes it work in FS but I do like what they're doing now.

Am really looking forward to seeing Tim's season debut as I think he - and his programs - have lots of potential.
 
Ok, I just woke up and I saw MITF and was like, "What's MITF?" Is it Moves In The Field? If so, what's the difference between moves in the field and straight line or circular footwork?
 
Mrs. P said:
Since this is the U.S. men's thread, I'd say Jason and Ross Miner probably are the top in SS among the U.S. men's field. And though he is a junior internationally, Andrew Torgeshev should be up there. Aaron would be 4th, I think for speed. Since SS is only one component, Adam's PCS overall probably is OK (he got 124.9 at U.S. Classic), but I have to agree with others that his skating doesn't live up to the SS he's getting now. One thing I noticed with Adam is how much two-footed skating he does. He definitely should have not gotten the same SS score as Jason at U.S. Classic SP.
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I think we'll see more of a PCS gap emerge between Adam and Jason as the season progresses (unless Adam puts together stellar performances on the GP...) because judges love Jason. Right now, Adam is just getting a bit of a "we haven't forgotten how awesome you were at Worlds" bonus. I'm interested to see what kind of PCS Nathan Chen receives internationally. His skating skills aren't all there, but they're by no means bad. If he's healthy and relatively consistent this season, it would be a crime not to send him to Worlds.
 
mrrice said:
Ok, I just woke up and I saw MITF and was like, "What's MITF?" Is it Moves In The Field? If so, what's the difference between moves in the field and straight line or circular footwork?
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There are two different ways the term could be used.

In a general sense, "moves in the field" or "field moves" usually refers to extended glides in position such as spirals, spread eagles, Ina Bauers, and the like.

There was a period in the early 2000s, pre-IJS, when men were required to include a sequence of such moves in the freeskate (parallel to the ladies' spiral sequence which was also required in the FS beginning at the start of this century). For brevity, that might have been referred to as a "field moves sequence."

With IJS that initially changed to being just a second step sequence for the men, and then in 2010-11 that was changed to the current Choreographic Sequence, which doesn't have requirements as to whether it consists primarily of position glides or low-revolution jumps or steps and turns or any combination of the above.

In discussing a freestyle program, the individual moves could be referred to as field moves or moves in the field, whether they occur within the choreo sequence or as transitions in or out of other elements or just as isolated highlight moves. That's the context in which posters were using the MITF abbreviation above.


Also, starting in the mid-1990s US Figure Skating replaced removed school figures from the required testing system and replaced them with a series of Moves in the Field tests (official name), from prepreliminary through senior level.

Some of these moves that skaters are tested on are stroking exercises of various types, a few are figure eights similar to the old school figures, and there are required spiral moves on four of the eight tests. Other field moves in the sense discussed above are not required.

And there are also patterns testing edges and specific turns that cover the whole length of the ice surface -- to test the ability to do all of the individual types of turns in all directions on each foot. Those patterns are the most direct parallel to the testing of turns in school figures, but instead of being performed on a small patch of ice in a figure 8 pattern, they are performed "in the field" using the whole ice surface. The prejuvenile three turn patterns and the intermediate bracket pattern are specifically referred to as "threes in the field" and "brackets in the field."

You can find the explanations of these tests on pp. 252-257 of the Rulebook and the patterns at the end following p. 286.

So that use of the term "Moves in the Field" is specific to the US testing structure.
 
Congrats to Alexei KRASNOZHON for winning his first Junior Grand Prix final gold!

And for getting the 4Lo fully rotated!!
 
That 4LO looked so underrotated. They gave it to him anyway? Whatever... but good win for him.
 
Mrs. P said:
Congrats to Alexei KRASNOZHON for winning his first Junior Grand Prix final gold!

And for getting the 4Lo fully rotated!!
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Many congrats to Aleksei :yay:.

BTW, he has been blogging for IN from Slovenia. Looking forward to what he writes about winning the gold; about getting credit for the quad loop; and about qualifying for the JGPF :dance2:.

LOL, his luggage got lost on the way to Oberstdorf (although not his skates, costumes, and music). Perhaps a not-so-lucky start to the trip, but he seemed to take it in stride. And everything turned out just fine :cool:.​

And congratulations to Grant for his bronze today at Nebelhorn :).
He has been blogging for IN as well.

On a completely different note, have been meaning to post this short video from Nathan's exhibition program at Sun Valley in August.

I really enjoyed it :popcorn:. (Disclaimer: I have no idea whether it already was posted elsewhere on GS. If redundant, I apologize.)

ETA:

Yesterday, the ISU Instagram account featured a photo of Torgashev :cool::

Also from yesterday:
Mroz: 'Performing has refueled my love for skating'
Former U.S. competitor finds groove as show skater on cruise ships
 
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It's funny because if Yuzu does it well next week people will still probably think he is the first to have done it. :laugh:
 
MaxSwagg said:
It's funny because if Yuzu does it well next week people will still probably think he is the first to have done it. :laugh:
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Rightly so. They should see how a beautiful clean rotated landed 4 loop looks like :bang:



Yuzuru is actually planning spread eagle - 4 loop - spread eagle :shocked: :slink:
He is a nightmare for every fan :bang:
 
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Is Nathan not competing before the GP season? That doesn't make sense he needs to get his feet wet competing against other Senior men before his GP.
 
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