Discussion on Versatility

[skylark]

Get your facts straight, Yuzuru's fans are just making fun of Yuzuru himself by adding other music to his perfromances. No one was bashing poor Eppen about Javi until your accusation.

To get one thing straight, I was not the one who spoke of bashing "poor" Eppen. That was another poster who chose to use that term. In my opinion, that post doubled down on the sarcastic, belittling (or whatever) turn the thread had taken.

My earlier post really only makes sense when it's in the thread celebrating great choreographer-skater teams. That's where I originally posted it. Maybe I was tired and cranky last night when I wrote it, but I had been looking forward to more posts in a previously positive thread, and I was disappointed that the thread had been hijacked into something different. I scanned through several pages of arguments, hoping, against hope as it turned out, that the thread would have returned to its original subject.

Carry on with the arguments as you wish. I'm much more interested in other pursuits.

 

[Meoima]

To get one thing straight, I was not the one who spoke of bashing "poor" Eppen. That was another poster who chose to use that term. In my opinion, that post doubled down on the sarcastic, belittling (or whatever) turn the thread had taken.

My earlier post really only makes sense when it's in the thread celebrating great choreographer-skater teams. That's where I originally posted it. Maybe I was tired and cranky last night when I wrote it, but I had been looking forward to more posts in a previously positive thread, and I was disappointed that the thread had been hijacked into something different. I scanned through several pages of arguments, hoping, against hope as it turned out, that the thread would have returned to its original subject.
Carry on with the arguments as you wish. I'm much more interested in other pursuits.

Nah, I understand your feeling. However it was the OP who bashed her "not favourite skater" first to make her "favourite skater" look better so...

 

[Lambari]

Surely you're all overlooking the single most important thing about this entire topic.

a J-pop crossover style version of Polovetsian Dances

Need this in my life, stat. *off to hunt for video*

I think I found it

I see no jpop though but traditional japanese instruments with somehow a latin flair, is it the right video

 

[MaxSwagg]

I'm not going to apologize for pointing out when someone makes baseless comments fueled by their bias. It is clear that is what is happening with the OP. People have to learn to respect the players and give credit where credit is due (and not to give credit where credit is not due). When it comes to versatility (skating skills, transitions, tech elements quality), it is completely baseless to say that Fernandez tops Hanyu in these respects. Which made it easy for those examples to be torn apart.

 

[Pamigena]

I think I found it

I see no jpop though but traditional japanese instruments with somehow a latin flair, is it the right video

I think it's this one and the one you posted is called "Barcelona"

 

[Crossover]

I had been looking forward to more posts in a previously positive thread, and I was disappointed that the thread had been hijacked into something different. I scanned through several pages of arguments, hoping, against hope as it turned out, that the thread would have returned to its original subject.

Carry on with the arguments as you wish. I'm much more interested in other pursuits.

:thumbsup: I can't agree with you more

 

[Rissa]

Parisienne Walkways skated on Rach 3 (Kwan's cuts). As you can see, the music and vibes of the programs match so much I wonder why Jeff even bother to pick PW to start with! Who wants to put PW on Chopin now?

http://sendvid.com/t42fmgl3

Here you are

Chopin skated on PW music. I feel the need to point out this video is from GPF15 in Barcelona. I would totally understand if someone watching this could get confused and think it's the original PW program, really.


https://sendvid.com/ae3jvbne

Breaking News! Here you are the real new sp! Or fp. I don't know, they are all the same, anyway, in Yuzu's case! Let's go Crazy! https://sendvid.com/cs38zl48.

That's... interesting...

It's fascinating how some elements match, especially in the first two examples, but the whole thing us so terribly wrong. I especially love Yuzu's "yeah!" hand movement ending a quad set to the single piano key stroke. So wrong.

 

[Lambari]

I think it's this one and the one you posted is called "Barcelona"

Oh, when Eppen said "a J-pop crossover style version of Polovetsian Dances and Yoshida Brothers' "Barcelona"' I thought it was one program that included all of it so my first thought was what, i'm in, not two programs, thank you for correcting. Now it makes more sense.

In this one Javier's performance seems good though, :agree: if I watch it on mute. No offence to the singer, just personal preference

 

[Rina RUS]

It's about risk. Some take risk, and others don't Using an example in pairs too...eh, well, we won't go into that. Doing drastically different styles has a certain risk to it. Should be reflected in composition (or whatever they're calling that component), performance, and interpretation marks...

I don't think so. I think a coach and a choreographer should be able to understand, whether smth new suits the skater or not. If they are able, it is not so risky.

I think it is interesting to see a unique program. Even for judges. A program, which won't remind many other programs by many skaters, even if it uses the same jumps and etc.

For example, I really like the indian program by Volosozhar and Trankov. Not because they just put on theatrical costumes and take another music. It is interesting, that they change the nature of their movements, that every new element should be in harmony with this nature. It is hard to remember another program, which looks like this program. I admire their speed, I admire Trankov's artistry (I like, that both partners are really interesting)...

Trankov says, that maybe people will remember, that VT are those, who made this indian program. I agree. I don't think, that the season was bad for them. I think this program is more interesting for me than some programs, which won gold medals. Particularly as we know, that sometimes skaters fall, make gross mistakes, but win gold medals.

Often a program reminds not only the previous programs of this skater (or the pair), often it reminds... everything. For me it is hard to watch a program, when a skater looks so ordinary, that I start to forget, that not all the skaters look like this one. Of course, top skaters are usually more interesting, but sometimes even a top skater keeps doing something on the ice, but I feel, that these words really suit to describe my impression: "keeps doing something on the ice".

 

[MaxSwagg]

I don't think so. I think a coach and a choreographer should be able to understand, whether smth new suits the skater or not. If they are able, it is not so risky.

I think it is interesting to see a unique program. Even for judges. A program, which won't remind many other programs by many skaters, even if it uses the same jumps and etc.

For example, I really like the indian program by Volosozhar and Trankov. Not because they just put on theatrical costumes and take another music. It is interesting, that they change the nature of their movements, that every new element should be in harmony with this nature. It is hard to remember another program, which looks like this program. I admire their speed, I admire Trankov's artistry (I like, that both partners are really interesting)...

Trankov says, that maybe people will remember, that VT are those, who made this indian program. I agree. I don't think, that the season was bad for them. I think this program is more interesting for me than some programs, which won gold medals. Particularly as we know, that sometimes skaters fall, make gross mistakes, but win gold medals.

Often a program reminds not only the previous programs of this skater (or the pair), often it reminds... everything. For me it is hard to watch a program, when a skater looks so ordinary, that I start to forget, that not all the skaters look like this one. Of course, top skaters are usually more interesting, but sometimes even a top skater keeps doing something on the ice, but I feel, that these words really suit to describe my impression: "keeps doing something on the ice".

Well, yes. I agree that Tat and Max's programs last season were arguably the most innovative of any pair, particularly the Bollywood, and the "Dracula" had many new and interesting transitions and choreographic movements. Really their best and most substantive programs perhaps.

 

[Rina RUS]

I think it's this one and the one you posted is called "Barcelona"

Polovetsian Dances?
I thought, that I will hear this music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGNObWgU2Qw&t=5m04s

But Javier is skating to "Fly away on the wings of the wind..." (the beginning of the same video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGNObWgU2Qw&t=53s

on this video ("Fly away on the wings of the wind...", Javier)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh5jcGb2TX8

 

[DiamondDust]

http://chibura.tumblr.com/post/149167361635/yuzuru-hanyu-the-evolution-of-triple-axel

This!!!:agree: I love both Javi and Yuzuru. I agree that Javi (and the team?) tends to stick to his style (playing to one's strength is good too and has its own charms), while Yuzuru indeed tries skating to different themes (...so in virtue of versatility I hand it to the Olympic champ).

 

[Pamigena]

Polovetsian Dances?
I thought, that I will hear this music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGNObWgU2Qw&t=5m04s

But Javier is skating to "Fly away on the wings of the wind..." (the beginning of the same video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGNObWgU2Qw&t=53s

on this video ("Fly away on the wings of the wind...", Javier)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh5jcGb2TX8

I dunno there's a caption that tells you what the music is supposed to be, and I just believed the google translator and wikipedia who told me that it means Polovtsian Dances

 

[andromache]

It's a shame this thread is full of arguing for everyone's faves instead of discussing the virtues of versatility, or the risks a skater takes when trying something new that might not be their style.

For example, Diva Wagner taking on something much softer for her new LP. Will it work? Would it be safer to choose something more dramatic? Probably, but I also have a lot of respect for skaters who take on something that might not entirely be in their range (yet). I'm disappointed in Evgenia's programs this season, for example, because I'd love to see her try something more dance-inspired, or something more flirty. She's in a very good place in her skating where it's good to take risks and challenge herself, IMO.

Then again, someone struggling like Gracie Gold - I understand why she's going with more of the same for her programs, or why Liza is also playing to her strengths in terms of choreography.

As for the men, I love Yuzu's and Javi's programs. And props to Javi (who is less versatile than Yuzu, IMO) for being able to take on and master the nuances of every character/piece of music in a single genre of character-driven, silly yet charismatic programs.

Someday I want to see Javier try to do a Yuzu program and to see Yuzu do a Javi program. I bet it would be a hilarious disaster for both men.

But I agree with Sam that judges shouldn't judge programs based on the perceived versatility of the skater. Taking into account past programs/performances sounds tricky and complicated and bad (we already have PCS rising based on consistency sooooooo no more other things to boost PCS please). But I do think judges are perfectly capable of penalizing skaters if they think a program is boring or derivative because they've seen it too many times before - I was shocked they placed C/L above C/B in PCS for that very reason.

 

[Biellmann]

It's a shame this thread is full of arguing for everyone's faves instead of discussing the virtues of versatility, or the risks a skater takes when trying something new that might not be their style. For example, Diva Wagner taking on something much softer for her new LP. Will it work? Would it be safer to choose something more dramatic? Probably, but I also have a lot of respect for skaters who take on something that might not entirely be in their range (yet). I'm disappointed in Evgenia's programs this season, for example, because I'd love to see her try something more dance-inspired, or something more flirty. She's in a very good place in her skating where it's good to take risks and challenge herself, IMO.

Then again, someone struggling like Gracie Gold - I understand why she's going with more of the same for her programs, or why Liza is also playing to her strengths in terms of choreography.

As for the men, I love Yuzu's and Javi's programs. And props to Javi (who is less versatile than Yuzu, IMO) for being able to take on and master the nuances of every character/piece of music in a single genre of character-driven, silly yet charismatic programs.

Someday I want to see Javier try to do a Yuzu program and to see Yuzu do a Javi program. I bet it would be a hilarious disaster for both men.

But I agree with Sam that judges shouldn't judge programs based on the perceived versatility of the skater. Taking into account past programs/performances sounds tricky and complicated and bad (we already have PCS rising based on consistency sooooooo no more other things to boost PCS please). But I do think judges are perfectly capable of penalizing skaters if they think a program is boring or derivative because they've seen it too many times before - I was shocked they placed C/L above C/B in PCS for that very reason.

This thread started with "Hanyu can't do this, can't do that, isn't this, is not doing that...." and continues with "but Javier is all this and more.."
What do you expect? It's a bashing thread, not a "constructive" thread

 

[Interspectator]

This thread started with "Hanyu can't do this, can't do that, isn't this, is not doing that...." and continues with "but Javier is all this and more.."
What do you expect? It's a bashing thread, not a "constructive" thread

But it can be constructive. We can discuss versatility without making it all about one or two skaters. It's a personal choice. The subject is interesting even if the first post might have been controversial.

 

[Interspectator]

It's a shame this thread is full of arguing for everyone's faves instead of discussing the virtues of versatility, or the risks a skater takes when trying something new that might not be their style.

For example, Diva Wagner taking on something much softer for her new LP. Will it work? Would it be safer to choose something more dramatic? Probably, but I also have a lot of respect for skaters who take on something that might not entirely be in their range (yet). I'm disappointed in Evgenia's programs this season, for example, because I'd love to see her try something more dance-inspired, or something more flirty. She's in a very good place in her skating where it's good to take risks and challenge herself, IMO.

Then again, someone struggling like Gracie Gold - I understand why she's going with more of the same for her programs, or why Liza is also playing to her strengths in terms of choreography.

As for the men, I love Yuzu's and Javi's programs. And props to Javi (who is less versatile than Yuzu, IMO) for being able to take on and master the nuances of every character/piece of music in a single genre of character-driven, silly yet charismatic programs.

Someday I want to see Javier try to do a Yuzu program and to see Yuzu do a Javi program. I bet it would be a hilarious disaster for both men.

But I agree with Sam that judges shouldn't judge programs based on the perceived versatility of the skater. Taking into account past programs/performances sounds tricky and complicated and bad (we already have PCS rising based on consistency sooooooo no more other things to boost PCS please). But I do think judges are perfectly capable of penalizing skaters if they think a program is boring or derivative because they've seen it too many times before - I was shocked they placed C/L above C/B in PCS for that very reason.

Good Post! It leads me to this question, when is a good time for a skater to try a new genre, who would you like to see try something different? And what is it?
I'd like to see Marin Honda try a rock and roll program! But that's just me, a spectator saying it. It might not be in her best interests to do that.

 

[Eloyse]

Even Boyang Jin is more versatile than the spaniard. What's more I'd say Boyang has better carriage and musicality than Fernandez (this is off topic though). Throughout his career Fernandez has never done anything besides "funny" or "sexy" programs (by the way he trys to act sexy but I really find him plain looking) He is a textbook example of "repetitive""unvaried""boring" skater, in my humble opinion.

 

[Mathman]

This thread started with "Hanyu can't do this, can't do that, isn't this, is not doing that...." and continues with "but Javier is all this and more.."

What do you expect? It's a bashing thread, not a "constructive" thread

Let's distinguish between the thread and the first post. The thread is about versitality. If you think that a particular skater, or some particular programs by that skater, show versatility, post about that. This is not a bashing thread unless the posters make it so.

(by the way he trys to act sexy but I really find him plain looking)

A person can be plain looking and sexy all at once. :yes:

 

[MaxSwagg]

It's a shame this thread is full of arguing for everyone's faves instead of discussing the virtues of versatility, or the risks a skater takes when trying something new that might not be their style.

For example, Diva Wagner taking on something much softer for her new LP. Will it work? Would it be safer to choose something more dramatic? Probably, but I also have a lot of respect for skaters who take on something that might not entirely be in their range (yet). I'm disappointed in Evgenia's programs this season, for example, because I'd love to see her try something more dance-inspired, or something more flirty. She's in a very good place in her skating where it's good to take risks and challenge herself, IMO.

Then again, someone struggling like Gracie Gold - I understand why she's going with more of the same for her programs, or why Liza is also playing to her strengths in terms of choreography.

As for the men, I love Yuzu's and Javi's programs. And props to Javi (who is less versatile than Yuzu, IMO) for being able to take on and master the nuances of every character/piece of music in a single genre of character-driven, silly yet charismatic programs.

Someday I want to see Javier try to do a Yuzu program and to see Yuzu do a Javi program. I bet it would be a hilarious disaster for both men.

But I agree with Sam that judges shouldn't judge programs based on the perceived versatility of the skater. Taking into account past programs/performances sounds tricky and complicated and bad (we already have PCS rising based on consistency sooooooo no more other things to boost PCS please). But I do think judges are perfectly capable of penalizing skaters if they think a program is boring or derivative because they've seen it too many times before - I was shocked they placed C/L above C/B in PCS for that very reason.

Well, Hanyu has done programs that are closer to Fernandez's than Fernandez has done to Hanyu's. So the track records and variety speak for themselves.