2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[futurepupdoc]

Re Nathan and Raf:

On Nov 11 in the GP France SP thread, the ever-alert frida brought the following to my attention.



As of then, the ISU bio named only MZ as "Coach."

But lo and behold, since then, the plot has thickened again.

Hat tip to Sylvia at FSU, who noted that Nathan's ISU bio was revised yet again on Nov 12. (Now includes his GP results from this weekend.)

And ... under "Coach," the latest version now lists MZ, Oleg, and Raf.

Ashley said in an interview Nathan no longer trains with her.

 

[skylark]

Ashley said in an interview Nathan no longer trains with her.

That was way back at Skate America in October. The new information is from Nov. 12.

 

[skylark]

Fine, let me correct it: if the judging is correct Jason would be light years ahead of Adam.

And of course, the judging is correct only if you deem it so. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. If there was only one undisputed idea of what figure skating is supposed to be, the scoring could be done by computer. But then it wouldn't be judging. Judging means that there are objective standards and norms and all that, but there's a conclusion that needs to be drawn after all the calculations are done. People are entitled to form their own judgments quite independently of yours or anyone else's.

Definition of judging: to form an opinion or conclusion about.

On Saturday, I was 100% certain that you'd judge Adam's 4T underrotated. That doesn't make it so.

 

[eta]

So will nationals decide who goes to worlds, with certainty? As in, top two seniors will definitely get the spots? Unless injuries happen, of course.

(I've heard about the Nagasu incident with the Olympics, not sure if that was a one-time thing.)

 

[ice coverage]

Ashley said in an interview Nathan no longer trains with her.

True, but IMO, it is significant that Team Nathan apparently has been sending mixed signals to the official governing body regarding whom Nathan considers to be his coaches.

If Nathan clearly and definitively had informed the ISU once and for all that the correct category for Raf is "Former Coach," I doubt that the ISU would keep changing Nathan's bio back and forth.

Additional data points from the most recent version of Nathan's ISU bio: California and Canton both are listed for low season practice, and Canton alone for high season practice.
So a possible interpretation could be that Nathan still considers Raf part of his team, and plans to spend some training time with Raf in California btwn this season and next??

But the only thing that is clear to me is a lack of clarity.

---

Good luck to Max and Ross at Cup of China this week :yay:.

---

And good luck to all :yay: at Sectionals, which begin on Wednesday :

http://usfigureskating.org/story?id=90135&type=media (Nov 14)​

Blog post from Alex Johnson, who will compete at Midwestern Sectionals with a new FS to Peter Gabriel's "In Your Eyes" .

http://figureskatersonline.com/alexanderjohnson/home/my-crazy-busy-life/ (Nov 13)​

Start orders for Eastern Sectionals already are posted here:

http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/document/0110/5251/FULL_START_ORDER.pdf (23 pages)​

---

Recent lengthy interview with Krasnozhon ... written by none other than Brooklee Han :

https://twitter.com/ifsmagazine/status/796215249309409282 (Nov 8)
https://www.ifsmagazine.com/alexei-kasnozhon-chasing-american-dream/​

---

So will nationals decide who goes to worlds, with certainty? As in, top two seniors will definitely get the spots? Unless injuries happen, of course. ...

Per USFS selection criteria, only the U.S. champion is guaranteed a slot on the world team.

For other slots, results from Nationals are a major criterion, but results from certain other major comps are designated as additional criteria.

 

[Bonesfan]

Is it really necessary to trash Japanese skaters in the US men's thread?

 

[eta]

Per USFS selection criteria, only the U.S. champion is guaranteed a slot on the world team.

For other slots, results from Nationals are a major criterion, but results from certain other major comps are designated as additional criteria.

Thank you.

 

[skylark]

Re Nathan and Raf:

And ... under "Coach," the latest version now lists MZ, Oleg, and Raf.

In the competition thread for Men's FS this week-end, someone said that Nathan seems like a headstrong kid. Or maybe it was strong-willed, I'm not sure of the exact wording, but they're synonyms pretty much.

I've been thinking for awhile that all the condemnation of Rafael over Nathan's doing 4 quads in a free program (last year's nationals) or 5 now, may well be off-base. This has now been confirmed. Marina has been at Nathan's side at the last couple of competitions, and lo and behold, Nathan attempted 5 quads in the free on both occasions. The B.Esp. commentators noted that in the FS at TDF, he was changing his program content on the fly.

So who is to blame for Nathan's attempting 5 quads over the week-end? Marina? Rafael, who's still getting unfairly trash-talked for not controlling Nathan better? A tiger-mom or tiger-dad or tiger-grandma or whoever?

It sounds to me like Nathan is controlling Nathan. He's the one in a hurry. I do not agree with his strategy, but I can still remember being 17 and headstrong myself. He seems gentle and obliging and respectful and I imagine he's all those things, but some of the most unlikely people can be stubbornly headstrong.

I find it possible that Marina and Oleg have realized who they're dealing with, and all together "the team" determined that they need Raf, and his unquestioned excellence at jumping technique, on the case. For whatever reason or combination of reasons.

I'm glad to see it. Rafael deserves a lot of credit for teaching those jumps, although natural ability in Nathan surely is also a factor.

 

[eta]

The Japanese men, meanwhile, slopped and stumbled and spluttered their way to an overscored pair of results that added up to less than thirteen - so they get three spots back. Two sloppy free skates are somehow better, in the ISU's book, than three almost perfect ones. Total nonsense.

So you're saying clean programs >>> programs with falls? Then everyone should just to singles and doubles. :scowl:

If we talk math, the two Japanese FPs were indeed "better" (here I mean higher scoring) than the three US ones - more difficult jumps, better spins, better step sequences, better PCS.

And the two Japanese SPs were much higher than the three US ones.


And that's as much as I'll say about non-US men in this thread.

 

[Mrs. P]

Adam, like Ashley, has this weird habit of losing points here and there on things he really shouldn't, i.e. spin levels, which really makes a difference in competitions. It could be the difference come Nationals as well.

Also, i noticed -- and I'm not sure if it's because the Tech caller called it differently-- that Adam had 5-3 layout at Skate America and a 4-4 layout at TdF. I watched the video and he starts the 3A-2T jump right at the halfway point, so the tech caller was more strict.

 

[karne]

Also, i noticed -- and I'm not sure if it's because the Tech caller called it differently-- that Adam had 5-3 layout at Skate America and a 4-4 layout at TdF. I watched the video and he starts the 3A-2T jump right at the halfway point, so the tech caller was more strict.

The timing is automatic - the computer registers the "second half". So it wasn't that the TS was more strict. I think he admitted he got ahead of himself in the FS and that was why it was early. He was also ahead of the music in the SP, so perhaps he just had a bit more adrenaline.

 

[ice coverage]

... I find it possible that Marina and Oleg have realized who they're dealing with, and all together "the team" determined that they need Raf, and his unquestioned excellence at jumping technique, on the case. For whatever reason or combination of reasons.

I'm glad to see it. Rafael deserves a lot of credit for teaching those jumps, although natural ability in Nathan surely is also a factor.

Intriguing theory . (Esp. for someone like me, who likes Raf .)
Thx for sharing it.

---

Cross-posting from Max's thread:

This just in: Max will be performing in an outdoor ice show on Dec 18 in NYC :yay:.

6 pm, Sun Dec 18, at Brookfield Place.

https://www.facebook.com/GregoryPet...211300205181/1265211250205186/?type=3&theater (Nov 13)​

The show is organized by ice dancers Melissa Gregory and Denis Petukhov, who are the resident coaches/instructors at Brookfield Place.

http://gpice.com/​

I am hopeful that the show will be free of charge.
(In Feb 2016, Melissa and Denis held a free show at Brookfield Place. The cast for that one included Mirai and Jeremy.)

Scimeca and Knierim also are among the cast of the upcoming Dec show.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BMwl8MPAcrX/?taken-by=melissagregoryice (Nov 13)​

[Max, Alexa, and Chris recently were among the faces in Melissa's big group photo at the World Arena.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BMEzeprACfE/?taken-by=melissagregoryice (Oct 27)]​

---

Once again, good luck to Max and Ross at Cup of China :yay:.

 

[Skater Boy]

In the competition thread for Men's FS this week-end, someone said that Nathan seems like a headstrong kid. Or maybe it was strong-willed, I'm not sure of the exact wording, but they're synonyms pretty much.

I've been thinking for awhile that all the condemnation of Rafael over Nathan's doing 4 quads in a free program (last year's nationals) or 5 now, may well be off-base. This has now been confirmed. Marina has been at Nathan's side at the last couple of competitions, and lo and behold, Nathan attempted 5 quads in the free on both occasions. The B.Esp. commentators noted that in the FS at TDF, he was changing his program content on the fly.

So who is to blame for Nathan's attempting 5 quads over the week-end? Marina? Rafael, who's still getting unfairly trash-talked for not controlling Nathan better? A tiger-mom or tiger-dad or tiger-grandma or whoever?

It sounds to me like Nathan is controlling Nathan. He's the one in a hurry. I do not agree with his strategy, but I can still remember being 17 and headstrong myself. He seems gentle and obliging and respectful and I imagine he's all those things, but some of the most unlikely people can be stubbornly headstrong.

I find it possible that Marina and Oleg have realized who they're dealing with, and all together "the team" determined that they need Raf, and his unquestioned excellence at jumping technique, on the case. For whatever reason or combination of reasons.

I'm glad to see it. Rafael deserves a lot of credit for teaching those jumps, although natural ability in Nathan surely is also a factor.

And this is part of the reason why I say Chen's pcs are two high. He is about the jumps = compared to others who got lower pcs than him who arguably had equal or better skating skills/programs/pcs or others he is generously marked pc wise. But that will score well in the new system where big jumps often raise pcs it seems.

I think going back to the topic the state of us skating is very healthy but i think now he is the one guaranteed a spot at worlds. Now the USFA has the choice of pretty artistic skaters between Brown, Rippon and maybe Abbott. Max seems left out of the picture with two spots. They can send the artist so to speak and the jumper. But the season islong so who knows but Rippon has made a good argument that Brown is no shoe in now for worlds.

 

[shmay]

Adam, like Ashley, has this weird habit of losing points here and there on things he really shouldn't, i.e. spin levels, which really makes a difference in competitions. It could be the difference come Nationals as well.

Also, i noticed -- and I'm not sure if it's because the Tech caller called it differently-- that Adam had 5-3 layout at Skate America and a 4-4 layout at TdF. I watched the video and he starts the 3A-2T jump right at the halfway point, so the tech caller was more strict.

He maxed out spin levels in Paris, which is an improvement from SA, but he has not improved his step sequence levels in either the SP or LP. This, and getting ahead of the music for the 3A-2T, unfortunately cost him the silver medal and a nearly-guaranteed trip to GPF.

 

[topaz emerald]

So is Rafael Nathan's coach or is it Marina? LOL....

I was not a fan of Adam Rippon, but I must say I was impressed with Adam Rippon's bird program. I thought it was unique and very free flowing. I would have placed him above Nathan as well, although I think Nathan has improved quite a lot in his upper body movement. In regards to his quads, I think he should keep it at the max only 3 because consistency is an issue for him....he clearly lost against Rippon who only had one quad. So I would say, work on 2 to 3 quad, as well as his triple axel, which he obviously struggles with....

by the way, whatever happened to my favorite American male skater Jeremy Abbott? Did he lose his jumps? He was such a solid performer.

 

[Mrs. P]

by the way, whatever happened to my favorite American male skater Jeremy Abbott? Did he lose his jumps? He was such a solid performer.

He took the year off, but is contemplating a return next year.

http://www.croskate.hr/site/assets/files/1173/cscro2016_entries-men_16-11-14.pdf

Timothy Dolensky, Adam Rippon and Vincent Zhou listed as USA entries with Nathan Chen and Alexander Johnson as subs.

If Adam makes GPF, I bet one of those subs will go in.

 

[StitchMonkey]

This season is turning into an interesting lesson on how competition can really help skaters. Jason and Adam are really interesting in that they are not really similar skaters, but have very similar strengths and weaknesses. I think on some level they know, or rather assume that there is only one spot for one of them and worlds. And holy crap are they rising to the occasion!

It is interesting to watch their interactions... they are far less chummy than most of the guy skaters are with one another and I think part of it is the rivalry that has cropped up. They speak highly of each other when asked so I don't think it is bad blood, but a rivalry that is felt.

They are both basically setting personal best each event and really are neck and neck in their successes. Good for both of them! I wonder if they would both be doing as well as they are if not for one another, because I don't think they would be.

At the start of the season I thought USFSA was planning to send a "jumper" to worlds and a PCS skater. I.e. basically Max or Nathan and Jason or Adam. But now I think Jason and Adam are making enough quad strides that I think they will both have at least one stable quad by Nationals... which changes things a bit. They really are making a persuasive argument that they are good enough together to get three spots for the Olympics. I think they are this strange combination of similar but different that just really works for a respectful rivalry. As much as i love Max (and i do!) I think a team of Jason and Adam might be our best chance for three Olympic spots as I think they would push one another to do better and that rivalry might result in better showings at worlds.

I also wonder how much of that is Raf stirring the pot (in a good way!). Ashley has talked about how much she likes Gracie as a rival and that it helps her and pushes her. I wonder how much of that is Raf's influence. It is interesting that when Gracie started to falter, Raf basically recruited Mariah Bell as a in house rival to Ashley... and it seems to be working for both of them. I wonder if he is poising Jason vs Adam as a rivalry and it has helped Adam in much the same way Gracie helped Ashley.

At any rate this is shaping up to be an interesting season for our men. Good for them!

 

[ice coverage]

... Raf basically recruited Mariah Bell ..

I am unaware of any reliable evidence that Raf recruited Mariah.
AFAIK, Mariah has not said so, Raf has not said so, and USFS has not said so.

One member of GS -- who (like me) does not go by her/his real-life name -- painted that picture.
But I have no way of knowing whether the GS member was posting mere gossip/hearsay -- or whether the member is a true confidante of Mariah or Raf or anyone who was privy to their actual conversations.

ETA/BTW:

If you're going to sectionals, have a good time, Stitch .
Interested in any of your observations there, re men or ladies or anyone .​

 

[StitchMonkey]

I am unaware of any reliable evidence that Raf recruited Mariah.
AFAIK, Mariah has not said so, Raf has not said so, and USFS has not said so.

One member of GS -- who (like me) does not go by her/his real-life name -- painted that picture.
But I have no way of knowing whether the GS member was posting mere gossip/hearsay -- or whether the member is a true confidante of Mariah or Raf or anyone who was privy to their actual conversations.

I think we are getting into semantics here. Would "Raf welcomed Mariah" make you happier? Because I think the line between the two is so fine it is not worth quibbling over. To me it matters little who made the first move, she is there now, so in my eyes she was recruited... people can asked to be recruited in my eyes. I actually phrased it that way to be simple as this is the men's thread. However Mariah got there she is there and Raf seems happy with it. This is the men's thread so I did not want to dive too deep and really just wanted to highlight that there are some signs that Raf likes rivalry in a healthy way. I don't think Mariah would be there if it was an unhealthy rivalry. I was trying to be simple and perhaps got too simple.

I was not implying any inappropriate behavior on Rafs part for what it is worth. But I don't think she would be there if healthy rivalry was not a factor. And for what little it is worth, according to Instagram, Ashley and Mariah have been socializing outside the rink. So there is a healthy relationship going on. We never say interaction between Ashley and Hannah Miller when she was training there. So yes I do think the rivalry aspect was a factor in the move... and I think that is healthy and there is nothing wrong with that.

ETA/BTW:

If you're going to sectionals, have a good time, Stitch .
Interested in any of your observations there, re men or ladies or anyone .​

still on the fence... actually can anyone here confirm the commoners like me are allowed to attend? Because that was one hesitation i had.

 

[Mrs. P]

still on the fence... actually can anyone here confirm the commoners like me are allowed to attend? Because that was one hesitation i had.

I'm pretty sure sectionals is open to the public. GS members have attended in the past and sent their reports. And if I was going to attend any of them, Midwestern seems to be the one to go to.

On your other point: I'm not sure how much a rivalry has spurred/helped Jason, to be honest. He always to be pretty cerebral in his training/approach from way back in the days of his back-and-forth with Joshua Farris. He -- and his team -- sort of just did what worked for him without worrying too much about what others were doing. I think if Adam wasn't rising, Jason would probably be working just as hard.

And I think Adam is less motivated by Jason and more motivated by proving wrong those folks who think he's "too old" to improve, just like Ashley.

And Nathan, I think is just driven in general. Max also seems to have his own personal goals that he wants to achieve, which may differ from what people think he "should" do.

In any case, it does make for a good face-off come Nationals.

Also it's important to remember that it's not how you start, but how you finish RE: Nationals. Let's remember in past seasons that certain skaters had strong starts but then faltered or fell-short later in the season. It will be interesting to watch who peaks at the right time.