2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[TMC]

Well, to try to go somewhat on topic---that is interesting to me that Kori refused to co-coach with Raf, if his story holds true, because obviously Jason is spending part of his time with Frank Carroll.

It's totally possible that Kori sensed that Mariah might be better off change coaches totally then try to straddle between two different coaches and that's why she declined. There's probably more to the story/negotiation than we'll ever know, so that's all I'm going to say about this topic.

Again going back on topic: Raf's really quite harsh on Nathan. But I guess he's going to be with in at NHK? I have a feeling this relationship doesn't have a lot to stand on.

That's funny, that was my first thought too when I read that. I think she really thought it would be better for Mariah to concentrate on one style of coaching 100%.

gkelly and andromache, I'm finding your analyses fascinating! Thank you

 

[skylark]

I didn't go back in the thread, so if someone mentioned the dread "recruitment" word here, then it was still mentioned. I was thinking more of another thread where it was discussed.

And I agree it's good to hear Raf's viewpoint, or else I wouldn't read it. And I'm not being snarky when I say he makes me laugh out loud. Sometimes I think he means to, other times not. He keeps me on my toes.

I quoted it in my post #575 on this page. It was included in ice coverage's post #558 on the previous page. Okay, I'm determined to allow Raf the chance to speak for himself. I feel it's only fair, because people have apparently decided what they think he did or didn't do.

 

[ice coverage]

I'm cross-posting, but I feel it's very important to show this here, since some are still assuming, and saying, that Raf "recruited" Mariah. The following is a quote from an interview of Rafael conducted over the week-end at TDF. The bolding is mine.

----------

Interviewer -- Now you also started to push Mariah Bell.

Raf – There’s an interesting situation with her. I still have our texting in my phone – 54 her messages and 4 my. Only when she said that she anyway go to California for competitions and want to meet there, I said – let’s meet. She asked me to help her in tandem with her coach Kori Ade. I said, first tell to your coach, if she agrees, than we’ll start. I’ve already had an experience of working in tandem: I worked with Jeffrey Buttle and his coach, with whom he worked since he was seven. In the end, Battle became the world champion. Mariah went to the coach, and she refused. But Bell said, that she’s leaving anyway. Will you take me? And I was thinking and thinking and finally agreed. But I still keeping the history of texting – it’s calmer for me. So, no one can say that I acted dishonestly. That’s my attitude.

http://fs-gossips.com/rafael-arutyunyan-some-coaches-cling-to-an-athlete-like-to-a-rocket/

--------------

Aaannnd, here's a teaser: The article includes Raf's answer about what happened with Nathan, Marina, etc. Also a fun couple of sentences about Brezina.

I don't know who is "still saying" that Raf did anything, although I do remember a lot of uncalled for, IMO, criticism of posters and certainly misstatements of American law.

Be that as it may, I found the interview highly amusing, for reasons I will state in its own thread and have stated on GS. to my reading of this article, Raf would take credit for the fact that ice freezes. He think highly of himself, I'll give him that. Too funny.

In reply to el henry:

I will raise my hand as someone who was opposed to assuming that comments from one and only one member of GS (who posts infrequently on GS) could and should be accepted as unquestionable truth.
In the ensuing discussion on GS, the word "poaching" came up in connection with what happened with Mariah.

Whereas it is Mariah who is the one who reached out to Raf to ask for his help, according to this interview with Raf.

If you don't believe Raf, that is your choice to make.
(But it is highly amusing :rofl2: to me that you see only the worst in him, no matter what he says. I don't find an excessive amount of ego in this interview. I am on the other end of the spectrum, and tend to see the best in him.)

My own judgment is that I am more inclined to believe Raf than to believe an anonymous poster on GS who never explained (even after being specifically asked) how it was that s/he was privy to what s/he presented as "inside scoop" (my phrase).
After reading this interview, I do not think my previous skepticism regarding the GS member's comments was unwarranted. YMMV.

(Lest anyone wonder: I am not someone who had attempted to state any U.S. law, so I am not responding to that part of your post. Does not apply to me.)

---

ETA, an important note for today's conversation:

In defense of my friend Stitch, yesterday she already had clarified that she did not mean to use "recruit" as a loaded word.​

 

[skylark]

Well, to try to go somewhat on topic---that is interesting to me that Kori refused to co-coach with Raf, if his story holds true, because obviously Jason is spending part of his time with Frank Carroll.

It's totally possible that Kori sensed that Mariah might be better off change coaches totally

Ever since Mariah made the change, I've thought that it might have as much to do with Mariah's first time moving away from her family, establishing her independence somewhat, taking charge of her own life and her skating career. She more or less confirmed or implied that in her TSL interview at SA.

But to get back on topic, Jason's primary location and coaching is still with Kori. I had the same thought you did about Jason training with Frank. And one thing I really admire about Kori is that she's sensitive to every student having different needs.

 

[Tavi...]

I'm cross-posting, but I feel it's very important to show this here, since some are still assuming, and saying, that Raf "recruited" Mariah. The following is a quote from an interview of Rafael conducted over the week-end at TDF. The bolding is mine.

----------

Interviewer -- Now you also started to push Mariah Bell.

Raf – There’s an interesting situation with her. I still have our texting in my phone – 54 her messages and 4 my. Only when she said that she anyway go to California for competitions and want to meet there, I said – let’s meet. She asked me to help her in tandem with her coach Kori Ade. I said, first tell to your coach, if she agrees, than we’ll start. I’ve already had an experience of working in tandem: I worked with Jeffrey Buttle and his coach, with whom he worked since he was seven. In the end, Battle became the world champion. Mariah went to the coach, and she refused. But Bell said, that she’s leaving anyway. Will you take me? And I was thinking and thinking and finally agreed. But I still keeping the history of texting – it’s calmer for me. So, no one can say that I acted dishonestly. That’s my attitude.

http://fs-gossips.com/rafael-arutyunyan-some-coaches-cling-to-an-athlete-like-to-a-rocket/

--------------

Aaannnd, here's a teaser: The article includes Raf's answer about what happened with Nathan, Marina, etc. Also a fun couple of sentences about Brezina.

Don't you think it's kind of odd that the interviewer says, "Now you also started to push Mariah Bell," and his response is "I still have our texting in my phone - 54 her messages 4 my"? I'm not trying to imply that things didn't happen exactly as he says they did, but the fact that he's saying he's keeping the messages to feel calmer suggests to me that it wasn't only GS posters who questioned how she became his student.

 

[skylark]

I don't find an excessive amount of ego in this interview. I am on the other end of the spectrum, and tend to see the best in him.)

:agree:I feel the same.

In defense of my friend Stitch, yesterday she already had clarified that she did not mean to use "recruit" as a loaded word.​

Thanks for clarifying this.

 

[noskates]

it would seem to me that Frank and Kori have completely different coaching styles. Frank is the senior senator who probably isn't too flexible in his old age and doesn't feel the need to "give" in to someone else. Kori is very close to her skater(s) and almost motherly. I don't think Frank has ever been accused of being "fatherly!" And how do we know that Jason has been working with Carroll? Just because he hangs out with Gracie and has been in California? There are other coaches.

It sounds to me like perhaps Mariah was unhappy and looking for someone else.

 

[skylark]

Don't you think it's kind of odd that the interviewer says, "Now you also started to push Mariah Bell," and his response is "I still have our texting in my phone - 54 her messages 4 my"? I'm not trying to imply that things didn't happen exactly as he says they did, but the fact that he's saying he's keeping the messages to feel calmer suggests to me that it wasn't only GS posters who questioned how she became his student.

Well, it didn't seem odd to me. Just that he now has the opportunity, since an interviewer asked him about Mariah, to say this. And I don't blame him. He said plainly that he doesn't want anyone to think he acted dishonestly.

I think I always assumed that it wouldn't be just GS posters who would wonder what happened, and speculate whether if some sort of professional courtesy standard had been violated. Mariah didn't announce the change, and Kori didn't speak about it either. It was all so abrupt. That makes people wonder.

 

[karne]

And how do we know that Jason has been working with Carroll?

Both Jason and Kori have explicitly stated in interviews that Jason spent some time working with Carroll this summer.

 

[Mrs. P]

it would seem to me that Frank and Kori have completely different coaching styles. Frank is the senior senator who probably isn't too flexible in his old age and doesn't feel the need to "give" in to someone else. Kori is very close to her skater(s) and almost motherly. I don't think Frank has ever been accused of being "fatherly!" And how do we know that Jason has been working with Carroll? Just because he hangs out with Gracie and has been in California? There are other coaches.

It sounds to me like perhaps Mariah was unhappy and looking for someone else.

Jason and Kori have talked in interviews about Jason working with Frank, so that's on the record.

By the way, just because someone is "motherly" doesn't mean they're completely softies either. I have a feeling she's pretty firm too. And I think the motherly thing really only applies to Jason (and Jordan Moeller) anyway because of their particular student/coaching relationship.

Anyway, Raf's take on Nathan is actually more interesting to me rather than Mariah's, TBH. Raf's words seem to affirm the fact that Nathan's stubbornness regarding his jump arsenal is something he's not crazy about.

 

[skylark]

Raf's words seem to affirm the fact that Nathan's stubbornness regarding his jump arsenal is something he's not crazy about.

I completely agree with this. (And whew, I'm so glad to get back on topic since I got us off!:roll5

I particularly noticed the word "stubborn," since I invoked it earlier. Nathan seems the opposite, but in my experience that's not even unusual. And I still remember some skater (Timothy Goebel, maybe?) saying that Frank Carroll would tell Evan Lysacek "no more practice today" and Evan would just go to another rink and do some more. It's tempting to say that Raf should be able to control his skater, but even Tara L. at 14 also over-practiced 3Lo-3Lo in defiance of her coach.

I just have had a feeling for awhile that it's Nathan, not his coaches, old or new, or his parents, deciding to do all those quads, sometimes on the fly, as was noted last week-end. He is just a driven kid. Also, I re-read his Wiki page today. He's set so many new records over the years that I wonder if he doesn't just hold that as his highest goal, at least for now.

 

[Tavi...]

Well, it didn't seem odd to me. Just that he now has the opportunity, since an interviewer asked him about Mariah, to say this. And I don't blame him. He said plainly that he doesn't want anyone to think he acted dishonestly.

I think I always assumed that it wouldn't be just GS posters who would wonder what happened, and speculate whether if some sort of professional courtesy standard had been violated. Mariah didn't announce the change, and Kori didn't speak about it either. It was all so abrupt. That makes people wonder.

Yes. In any case, it sounds like Mariah feels like it was the right move for her, and she certainly looked great at SA.

About Raf: until fairly recently, there was an ethics rule in place that prohibited coaches from soliciting pupils of another coach. The PSA voluntarily agreed to eliminate it in March 2015 in settlement of a complaint brought by the FTC (which alleged it was an unlawful restraint on competition).

As a result, even if Raf had approached Mariah, he wouldn't have violated any professional rules. But I expect some people who've been in the profession a long time might still disapprove of anything that seems like "poaching," so his desire to explain himself and save the "proof" is understandable.

To bring it back to the men: the situation with Nathan now seems far less settled than it did a week ago. It will definitely be interesting to see who turns up with him at NHK!

 

[karne]

To bring it back to the men: the situation with Nathan now seems far less settled than it did a week ago. It will definitely be interesting to see who turns up with him at NHK!

...and even more interesting to see who turns up with him at US Nationals.

 

[katmari]

it would seem to me that Frank and Kori have completely different coaching styles. Frank is the senior senator who probably isn't too flexible in his old age and doesn't feel the need to "give" in to someone else. Kori is very close to her skater(s) and almost motherly. I don't think Frank has ever been accused of being "fatherly!" And how do we know that Jason has been working with Carroll? Just because he hangs out with Gracie and has been in California? There are other coaches.

Here's an icenetwork article with more information about Jason working with Frank over the summer (The Jason section is after the Adam section):

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2016...n-debuts-new-free----with-arutunians-blessing

Carroll spent the bulk of his time with Brown working on his jumps.

"I did work on the finish of the jumps, and trying to get him out of things quicker and on axis. We worked on specific technical things, mostly on quickness, and specific things the body has to do on the jumps."

 

[noskates]

Thanks for the info on Jason. And I really didn't mean "motherly" to be passive or weak. I think Kori is probably a stern taskmaster but she's been with Jason for so long that she's practically raised him.

 

[sc8]

This is an actual arena, right? So there should be plenty of seats and it probably won't be too cold.

Often sectionals (and regionals) are held at local rinks with limited bleacher space all near the ice and a low ambient temperature, so that's something to keep in mind for other trips to these events.



Well, there are now steeper penalties for third and subsequent falls, although for elite men with multiple quads the penalties are still negligible compared with the base values.



There is no such thing as a "program execution component score."

The execution of the elements is covered in the GOEs (and fall deductions where applicable).

The program components are now called Skating Skills, Transitions, Performance, Composition, and Interpretation. None of the guidelines for any of these components has ever mentioned anything about falls or errors or execution of the elements. It's possible that errors (both those that do and those that do not merit fall deductions) will have a negative effect on the actual official criteria for each of these five components and could be penalized appropriately in any or all components where applicable. But not all errors, not even all falls, are equal, so it's up to each judge to decide how much of a negative effect, if any, each error contributes to the overall impression of the whole program in each of these five areas.

The component guidelines were very explicitly designed not to include required penalties for technical errors.

The third component used to be called "Performance and Execution" through last year. But even then, none of the criteria for this component said anything at all about falls or errors.

The name of this component was changed this year to just plain "Performance" and the current criteria are:
*Physical, emotional, intellectual involvement and projection
*Carriage & Clarity of movement
*Variety and contrast of movement and energy
*Individuality / personality
*Unison and "oneness" (pairs, ice dance)
*Spatial awareness between partners (pairs, ice dance)

I'm sorry, I was refereing to the "performance" component, which I think originally was performance and execution. But, that's the category where Adam is particularly strong, as is Ashley among women. While I also think his interpretation scores were not fully credited either, compared to others, I think Adam deserved scores that at least placed the in the same league (in my opinion, better) than say, Shoma.. Adam, in particular, has brilliant carriage and exceptional personality, clarity (and sureness of movement), and contrasts of movement and energy. The judges rarely make significant distinctions (usually within a 1.0 range across components for skaters). There should be clearer distinctions across categories. Not intending to single out a skater, but it helps express my point. I remember in Boston scoring the event live and Boyang's range for me was 6.50 for Interpretation and an 8.25 (so a 1.75 range) for Skills, but the judges gave him 7.65 and 7.8 (or really close to these) averages respectively. While Interpretation isn't Max's strongest component, I had him at 8 (close to the judges 7.8 average), but that he was only .15 ahead of Boyang's 7.65 was not fair. His interpretation was at least 1.0 better than Boyang's. Additionally, I really liked Shona Uno live, he has great skating skills, but his choreography and interpretation were not the same as Adam's, yet the scored nearly identically in those components. While I think it was fair to give Shoma a slight edge over Adam on SS (judges gave him .4 higher, 8.8 to 8.4), Adam should have had a similar advantage over Shoma on Performance/Execution and Choreography based on what I saw at Worlds. I think Shoma was "held up" (borrowing a phrase Dick Button used to use when describing artistic impression under the 6.0 system because he didn't have the strongest free program technically.

 

[Tavi...]

You guys, could you possibly start a new thread to discuss PCS inequities? Pretty please?

It would be really nice if this one was for actual news, such as how Max did today and how the guys doing SP sectionals do tonight.

 

[karne]

Max kicked backside last night. When he landed so far forward on the 4S I was expecting him to leave it alone and do the combo on the 3Lz. Nope! Brilliant 3T. He fought his backside off for that program. And that's why you can never count him out, because he will fight, always fight. The 3A was absolute beauty as always and the 3Lz...well...eight of the ten men had errors on their Lutz-type jump, so I'm just going to assume Max's 3Lz was also in the thief's bag.

Importantly, he came off the ice smiling and laughing, and that bodes very well for tonight.

Ross seemed tight, not quite as casual as I'd like for that program, but it's still a great program on him.

 

[sc8]

You guys, could you possibly start a new thread to discuss PCS inequities? Pretty please?

It would be really nice if this one was for actual news, such as how Max did today and how the guys doing SP sectionals do tonight.

Well, to satisfy you, I just got done watching the CoC SPs. I think Max was good to hang onto his quad despite his forward lean! I don't know what happened to the Lutz. I'm confident he'll get that back at nationals. In order to get to Worlds, I think he'll need to maximize his spins and steps. The Eurosport's guys said he didn't have much arm movement in his steps, so I hope he can buff up the spins and steps more. Nasum Dorma (sorry if I butchered the spelling) cries for a big spread eagle, so I would be personally in love with the program if he could work one in as a transition to a spin or as part of the end of his steps. I would love that, but there are some other real nice touches. I think he looks really handsome and I like the very stylish and understated outfit. I hope he can pull up, even medal.

 

[karne]

Well, to satisfy you, I just got done watching the CoC SPs. I think Max was good to hang onto his quad despite his forward lean! I don't know what happened to the Lutz.

It got stolen by the Lutz Thief who was going around stealing all the men's Lutzes. Well, except SpiderBoyang's.

Nasum Dorma (sorry if I butchered the spelling) cries for a big spread eagle, so I would be personally in love with the program if he could work one in as a transition to a spin or as part of the end of his steps.

I think a big spreadeagle - into the 3A - would work, but I actually don't think Max is physically capable of doing one. I remember when he spoke with TSL after practice at SkAm last season and they quizzed him about taking ballet classes and Max talked about how it hurt him to turn out that far. He may not have the hip structure for it.

I think he looks really handsome and I like the very stylish and understated outfit. I hope he can pull up, even medal.

There are only two points covering 2nd to 5th, so he could even climb as high as silver tonight!