2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[StitchMonkey]

I'm pretty sure sectionals is open to the public. GS members have attended in the past and sent their reports. And if I was going to attend any of them, Midwestern seems to be the one to go to.

Thank you for your help... now to convince my better half to go.

On your other point: I'm not sure how much a rivalry has spurred/helped Jason, to be honest. He always to be pretty cerebral in his training/approach from way back in the days of his back-and-forth with Joshua Farris.

Well I'll let Jason's own words speak for this.

No single skater has had a bigger impact on me than you...from the time we were 10, competing as Juveniles at Jr. Nationals to making our first World Team together, you motivated me everyday. We traveled the world together, grew up in this sport together, and year after year fought for the same titles. For the past 11 years, you've inspired me each day to work, train, and fight harder. I'll miss our friendly rivalry and the fire in our eyes when we would go head to head at an event. I'll always cherish the memories of watching the US flag raised over our heads, hands over our hearts, and medals around our necks, as we stood on the podium, National Anthem filling the arena! Just like in your skating, I know whatever lies ahead in your life, you will do it with passion, grace, and your own unique style. If you ever need a friend or someone to talk to, you never have to look too far... Your teammate and friend,
Jason​

I think that is almost the definition of healthy rivalry. There are many different but flattering things he could of said but this is what he said. So yes I think he was cognizant of the rivalry and I think he is has acknowledge that it helped him.

Adam seems very aware of his surroundings. I think he is motivated by many skaters in different ways... Jason is just a special case because they are so similar and different at the same time. And they both have been given (euphemism for human excrement) for winning US nationals "without a quad" so they have some shared history and experiences.

And very true about how you finish. But i do think Jason and Adam are at least slightly above average in knowing when to peak. So I think they will both have good nationals. That being said... i am kinda expecting a wild card winner just because that is how Nationals tends to go.

To be fully honest though... if there was a rule that you could get 3 Olympic spots by skipping the prior worlds... that would be my vote. I hate that this is the reality of the sport, but 3 spots is very much what i want out of worlds. So I want to see the two that are most likely to get it go no matter anything else. So far Adam and Jason have done very well when they are at the same competition. Sometimes weird stuff works - and Adam and Jason seem to work.

 

[ice coverage]

...I was not implying any inappropriate behavior on Rafs part for what it is worth. ...

A couple of others who frequent this thread have been quite judgmental of Raf with respect to Mariah's move.
Because of past GS discussions, "recruit" struck me as a loaded word.
Thx for clarifying that you were not implying anything inappropriate on Raf's part.

I do think that we have seen a healthy and mutually supportive relationship between Mariah and Ashley -- via their interactions/comments at Skate America and via social media.
That said, I feel unsure whether (or how much) rivalry is on either Ashley's or Mariah's mind. (I do not/not/not mean that Mariah is out of Ashley's league. I mean that I don't know what their mindsets are.)

(FWIW, I vaguely recall at least a few images of positive interactions btwn Hannah and Ashley.)

---

... still on the fence... actually can anyone here confirm the commoners like me are allowed to attend? Because that was one hesitation i had.

Ticket prices for sectionals are at the link below.

http://www.midwesternsectionals.com/page/show/2694657-event​

 

[StitchMonkey]

A couple of others who frequent this thread have been quite judgmental of Raf with respect to Mariah's move.
Because of past GS discussions, "recruit" struck me as a loaded word.
Thx for clarifying that you were not implying anything inappropriate on Raf's part.

Not a problem at all... I know how odd things can get. And I NEVER think you post are malicious... you i see as our facts god/goddess... whichever you prefer... or be both for all i care! I love your factual contributions!

I do think that we have seen a healthy and mutually supportive relationship between Mariah and Ashley -- via their interactions/comments at Skate America and via social media.
That said, I feel unsure whether (or how much) rivalry is on either Ashley's or Mariah's mind. (I do not/not/not mean that Mariah is out of Ashley's league. I mean that I don't know what their mindsets are.)

(FWIW, I vaguely recall at least a few images of positive interactions btwn Hannah and Ashley.)

Ashley has more than once commented on the rivalry between her and Gracie so i do think it is far to say that Ashley is pro healthy rivalry in the greater philosophical sense. And for that matter even Kori has said part of her move to CO was because she wanted Jason to skate on ice with other guys for rivalry purposes... that may not have turned out as intended... but she has acknowledged that being something that can be positive. I don't recall any post of Ashley and Hannah, but I take your word for it.

---

Ticket prices for sectionals are at the link below.

http://www.midwesternsectionals.com/page/show/2694657-event​

yet another reason why we love you!

 

[ice coverage]

... I don't recall any post of Ashley and Hannah, but I take your word for it. ...

Of course, now I can't seem to come up with any one-on-one pics of Ashley and Hannah.
Sorry, maybe my brain was misremembering Adam/Hannah photos :hopelessness: as Ashley/Hannah photos.

Anyway, just for grins, here are a few Team Raf photos that were easy to find:

https://www.instagram.com/p/7dV644Crxf/?taken-by=ashwagner2010 (Sep 2015) Hannah + Ashley + Adam + Raf (I like this photo )
https://twitter.com/Hannah_Miller1/status/622436937463238656 Jul 2015 Hannah + Ashley + Adam + Nathan + Raf + others
https://www.instagram.com/p/8n9xIhgy_m/?taken-by=hannah_mill1 (Oct 2015) Hannah + Adam
https://www.instagram.com/p/BAaQhtHvY7x/?taken-by=adaripp (Jan 2016) Hannah + Adam + Karina/Joe​

---

... I do not/not/not mean that Mariah is out of Ashley's league. ...

And sorry that I got the wording backwards here .
I meant to say, " ... I do not/not/not mean that Ashley is out of Mariah's league. ...."

---

... And I NEVER think you post are malicious...

Thx very much, Stitch. Really appreciate your moral support .

 

[frida80]

Nathan is in Colorado Springs again. He can't be training with Marina or Rafael since they'll both be at the CoC this week. Very confusing.

Edit: Nevermind. I just realized it's sectionals this week and his girlfriend is competing. He gets to visit his friends and his girl while training at the Olympic Training center while his coach(es) are away. He probably needs a break. Good for him.

 

[karne]

No single skater has had a bigger impact on me than you...from the time we were 10, competing as Juveniles at Jr. Nationals to making our first World Team together, you motivated me everyday. We traveled the world together, grew up in this sport together, and year after year fought for the same titles. For the past 11 years, you've inspired me each day to work, train, and fight harder. I'll miss our friendly rivalry and the fire in our eyes when we would go head to head at an event. I'll always cherish the memories of watching the US flag raised over our heads, hands over our hearts, and medals around our necks, as we stood on the podium, National Anthem filling the arena! Just like in your skating, I know whatever lies ahead in your life, you will do it with passion, grace, and your own unique style. If you ever need a friend or someone to talk to, you never have to look too far... Your teammate and friend,
Jason​

.

You HAD to post this again, didn't you? *breaks into dozens of sad pieces* :sad21: :sad21: :sad21:

 

[topaz emerald]

Thank you for your help... now to convince my better half to go.



Well I'll let Jason's own words speak for this.

No single skater has had a bigger impact on me than you...from the time we were 10, competing as Juveniles at Jr. Nationals to making our first World Team together, you motivated me everyday. We traveled the world together, grew up in this sport together, and year after year fought for the same titles. For the past 11 years, you've inspired me each day to work, train, and fight harder. I'll miss our friendly rivalry and the fire in our eyes when we would go head to head at an event. I'll always cherish the memories of watching the US flag raised over our heads, hands over our hearts, and medals around our necks, as we stood on the podium, National Anthem filling the arena! Just like in your skating, I know whatever lies ahead in your life, you will do it with passion, grace, and your own unique style. If you ever need a friend or someone to talk to, you never have to look too far... Your teammate and friend,
Jason​

I think that is almost the definition of healthy rivalry. There are many different but flattering things he could of said but this is what he said. So yes I think he was cognizant of the rivalry and I think he is has acknowledge that it helped him.

Adam seems very aware of his surroundings. I think he is motivated by many skaters in different ways... Jason is just a special case because they are so similar and different at the same time. And they both have been given (euphemism for human excrement) for winning US nationals "without a quad" so they have some shared history and experiences.

And very true about how you finish. But i do think Jason and Adam are at least slightly above average in knowing when to peak. So I think they will both have good nationals. That being said... i am kinda expecting a wild card winner just because that is how Nationals tends to go.

To be fully honest though... if there was a rule that you could get 3 Olympic spots by skipping the prior worlds... that would be my vote. I hate that this is the reality of the sport, but 3 spots is very much what i want out of worlds. So I want to see the two that are most likely to get it go no matter anything else. So far Adam and Jason have done very well when they are at the same competition. Sometimes weird stuff works - and Adam and Jason seem to work.

After seeing Adam and Jason perform their programs this year, my pick would be these two for the Olympic team as well. I can't decide who should get the third spot.

 

[sc8]

Yes, and it will break my heart when the USFS' agenda inevitably happens, and his eyes are sad again even as he sends his friends off with a hug. But there must be a limit on spots at Worlds, and it must be a sensible one, or the big countries will overrun it. Personally, I think every country should be allowed three, and if you can fill them, great, if you can't, oh well. No more earning and losing spots on entirely stupid rules.

Think about how ridiculous this is: the US men in Boston, one, two and three, all put out absolutely spectacular free skates. Spectacular in anyone's book. They were clean, they were perfect, they were wonderful, and at least one of them was underscored. They all finished in the top ten - but they lost a spot.

The Japanese men, meanwhile, slopped and stumbled and spluttered their way to an overscored pair of results that added up to less than thirteen - so they get three spots back. Two sloppy free skates are somehow better, in the ISU's book, than three almost perfect ones. Total nonsense.

So, how do they rectify the scoring?? Do you think falls should be more costly? Perhaps minus 3 points instead of minus 1, plus the GOE downgrades? I personally can't understand how a program with falls doesn't get dinged more in the program execution component scores. Some of the men who fell still got execution scores higher than our clean skaters' LPs. I believe our men deserved higher components on execution because they executed their programs nearly flawlessly.

 

[gkelly]

still on the fence... actually can anyone here confirm the commoners like me are allowed to attend? Because that was one hesitation i had.

Ticket prices for sectionals are at the link below.

http://www.midwesternsectionals.com/page/show/2694657-event
​

This is an actual arena, right? So there should be plenty of seats and it probably won't be too cold.

Often sectionals (and regionals) are held at local rinks with limited bleacher space all near the ice and a low ambient temperature, so that's something to keep in mind for other trips to these events.

So, how do they rectify the scoring?? Do you think falls should be more costly? Perhaps minus 3 points instead of minus 1, plus the GOE downgrades?

Well, there are now steeper penalties for third and subsequent falls, although for elite men with multiple quads the penalties are still negligible compared with the base values.

I personally can't understand how a program with falls doesn't get dinged more in the program execution component scores. Some of the men who fell still got execution scores higher than our clean skaters' LPs. I believe our men deserved higher components on execution because they executed their programs nearly flawlessly.

There is no such thing as a "program execution component score."

The execution of the elements is covered in the GOEs (and fall deductions where applicable).

The program components are now called Skating Skills, Transitions, Performance, Composition, and Interpretation. None of the guidelines for any of these components has ever mentioned anything about falls or errors or execution of the elements. It's possible that errors (both those that do and those that do not merit fall deductions) will have a negative effect on the actual official criteria for each of these five components and could be penalized appropriately in any or all components where applicable. But not all errors, not even all falls, are equal, so it's up to each judge to decide how much of a negative effect, if any, each error contributes to the overall impression of the whole program in each of these five areas.

The component guidelines were very explicitly designed not to include required penalties for technical errors.

The third component used to be called "Performance and Execution" through last year. But even then, none of the criteria for this component said anything at all about falls or errors.

The name of this component was changed this year to just plain "Performance" and the current criteria are:
*Physical, emotional, intellectual involvement and projection
*Carriage & Clarity of movement
*Variety and contrast of movement and energy
*Individuality / personality
*Unison and "oneness" (pairs, ice dance)
*Spatial awareness between partners (pairs, ice dance)

 

[andromache]

The execution of the elements is covered in the GOEs (and fall deductions where applicable).

The program components are now called Skating Skills, Transitions, Performance, Composition, and Interpretation. None of the guidelines for any of these components has ever mentioned anything about falls or errors or execution of the elements. It's possible that errors (both those that do and those that do not merit fall deductions) will have a negative effect on the actual official criteria for each of these five components and could be penalized appropriately in any or all components where applicable. But not all errors, not even all falls, are equal, so it's up to each judge to decide how much of a negative effect, if any, each error contributes to the overall impression of the whole program in each of these five areas.

The component guidelines were very explicitly designed not to include required penalties for technical errors.

The third component used to be called "Performance and Execution" through last year. But even then, none of the criteria for this component said anything at all about falls or errors.

The name of this component was changed this year to just plain "Performance" and the current criteria are:
*Physical, emotional, intellectual involvement and projection
*Carriage & Clarity of movement
*Variety and contrast of movement and energy
*Individuality / personality
*Unison and "oneness" (pairs, ice dance)
*Spatial awareness between partners (pairs, ice dance)

In your opinion (and the opinion of everyone else here) would it be more correct and fair for I as an imaginary judge to dock points from the Performance category due to a fall because the fall caused a major break in the "intellectual involvement and projection" and the fall also caused a lack of "carriage & and clarity of movement"?

Or, should the program be assessed as if the elements have been edited out of the program, instead allowing GOE bullets to award/punish elements for being timed with the music well or not, or otherwise how well the element is integrated into the program as a whole?

In skating discussions in general, it appears that most fans seem to want it both ways, and while I understand that impulse, the judges SHOULD have to decide one way or another. But they don't. At this point in IJS, the way judges reward PCS outside of the elements may seem to over-reward skaters with high BV and great skating skills and a ton of mistakes (Yuzu, Shoma) over skaters with average BV and average skating skills who skate clean (Max [though his BV is probably above average], Adam, Jason). In that sense it SEEMS as if PCS are completely separate from TES - however, contrast that with the trend of rewarding skaters with high PCS for doing quads or otherwise having a high BV, even if their skating skills and performance quality are generally thought to be weak (Kovtun, Boyang, Nathan). So, PCS IS tied to TES, but in a way that further hurts the chances of the "average BV and average skating skills" group of skaters who are skating clean.

So the typical PCS ranking ends up like:

Best PCS - High BV and great skating/performance - even with a ton of mistakes
Second-best PCS - High BV and average/below-average skating/performance - with or without mistakes
Third-best PCS - Average BV and average/above-average skating/performance - skating clean

Note that when the second group totally implodes, the third group is only then capable of beating them. The first group can almost never be beat.

Considering mistakes as interruptions/aberrations in the performance/interpretation/choreography, however, can even the playing field a bit for the third group of guys, which will in turn motivate the first two groups to skate clean and tone down their difficulty to something manageable where they won't be winning with tons of falls.

 

[gkelly]

In your opinion (and the opinion of everyone else here) would it be more correct and fair for I as an imaginary judge to dock points from the Performance category due to a fall because the fall caused a major break in the "intellectual involvement and projection" and the fall also caused a lack of "carriage & and clarity of movement"?

Or, should the program be assessed as if the elements have been edited out of the program, instead allowing GOE bullets to award/punish elements for being timed with the music well or not, or otherwise how well the element is integrated into the program as a whole?

We've had this discussion before, and maybe a 2016-17 US men's thread isn't the place to have it in detail (I apologize for veering off on this tangent here).

In my opinion, if you as an imaginary judge found a fall by Skater X to cause a major break in the "intellectual involvement and projection" and a lack of "carriage & and clarity of movement," I would expect you to dock the skater in Performance.

But how much, and from what baseline? How major is major, and what kind of Performance score are you starting from?

Let's say Skater X is really strong at connecting physically, emotionally, and intellectually to the performance, projects strongly to the audience, has beautiful carriage and clarity of movement with varied use of movement quality and energy throughout, and shows a lot of individual personality. So before the fall you were thinking you might go into the 9s (outstanding) for this skater on this component, and after he eventually recovered from the fall he got into the performance just as strongly as before, so a spectator who walked out of the room/closed their eyes/averted their gaze during the fall, or watched a video that had edited out the fall and recovery, would have seen a very strong program throughout.

But it was a bad fall, ugly on the way down, the skater stayed on the ice for several seconds and got up awkwardly, and after he did get up he stood still or did some simple stroking and gliding for several more seconds, looking like he was assessing whether he was injured or was able to continue. Let's say altogether that there were as many as 15 seconds out of a 270-second freeskate during which the skater was not performing at all -- 255 seconds were some of the best you'd ever seen, and 15 seconds were some of the worst.

So if you were starting at 9.0 for performance, how much would you penalize that one really bad disruption? Maybe 1.0 to end up at 8.0? You tell me if you're the judge. (And remember with the factoring in a senior men's freeskate the component scores are doubled.)

Meanwhile, skater Y has poor posture, weak positions, spends much of the program looking down at the ice, doesn't seem to care about the music or choreography or spectators but only on getting the elements done, and maintains the same a medium-low energy level throughout. So you would probably be starting from a component score much lower than 8 (very good) to begin with -- Y just isn't showing the same level of performance skills that X did. But he skates a clean program with no mistakes, so once you've established your score in your mind, there's no reason for you to reduce it. If he smiles (emotional involvement) at the spectators (projection) and maybe pumps his fist (emotional and physical involvement in the performance, not choreography though) after landing the last jump and/or hitting the ending pose, would you maybe go up a little from whatever you had been thinking during the performance. If you were mentally debating between two adjacent scores, would the fact of a clean program inspire you to round up?

What about skater Z, who sells a playful program to the audience with good (and varied) energy and shows lots of personality and involvement. But his posture and positions are just as weak as Y's. Where would you start for that performance? What if Z falls, rolls over and right back onto his feet a second and a half later, grins at the audience with a humorous gesture to acknowledge the mistake, and is right back into the choreography within 3 seconds. How much, if anything, would you reduce the component score for that?

Best PCS - High BV and great skating/performance - even with a ton of mistakes
Second-best PCS - High BV and average/below-average skating/performance - with or without mistakes
Third-best PCS - Average BV and average/above-average skating/performance - skating clean

Note that when the second group totally implodes, the third group is only then capable of beating them. The first group can almost never be beat.

The type of mistakes makes a difference. If they affect the base value (e.g., popping or downgrading a jump, losing several levels on a non-jump element, losing a whole element) along with negative GOE and/or fall deductions, then higher PCS might not be able to make up for the loss of points. Rotated quads with falls still can earn more points than triples, so guys who can rotate multiple falls will still be in the mix on base value.

Required penalties that are large enough to make a difference to the multi-quad guys will have a disproportionately large effect on skaters without quads. So to me, it makes more sense to make the loss of points with negative GOEs on failed quads larger than the loss of points for mistakes on lower value elements.

 

[andromache]

We've had this discussion before, and maybe a 2016-17 US men's thread isn't the place to have it in detail (I apologize for veering off on this tangent here).

In my opinion, if you as an imaginary judge found a fall by Skater X to cause a major break in the "intellectual involvement and projection" and a lack of "carriage & and clarity of movement," I would expect you to dock the skater in Performance.

But how much, and from what baseline? How major is major, and what kind of Performance score are you starting from?

Let's say Skater X is really strong at connecting physically, emotionally, and intellectually to the performance, projects strongly to the audience, has beautiful carriage and clarity of movement with varied use of movement quality and energy throughout, and shows a lot of individual personality. So before the fall you were thinking you might go into the 9s (outstanding) for this skater on this component, and after he eventually recovered from the fall he got into the performance just as strongly as before, so a spectator who walked out of the room/closed their eyes/averted their gaze during the fall, or watched a video that had edited out the fall and recovery, would have seen a very strong program throughout.

But it was a bad fall, ugly on the way down, the skater stayed on the ice for several seconds and got up awkwardly, and after he did get up he stood still or did some simple stroking and gliding for several more seconds, looking like he was assessing whether he was injured or was able to continue. Let's say altogether that there were as many as 15 seconds out of a 270-second freeskate during which the skater was not performing at all -- 255 seconds were some of the best you'd ever seen, and 15 seconds were some of the worst.

So if you were starting at 9.0 for performance, how much would you penalize that one really bad disruption? Maybe 1.0 to end up at 8.0? You tell me if you're the judge. (And remember with the factoring in a senior men's freeskate the component scores are doubled.)

Meanwhile, skater Y has poor posture, weak positions, spends much of the program looking down at the ice, doesn't seem to care about the music or choreography or spectators but only on getting the elements done, and maintains the same a medium-low energy level throughout. So you would probably be starting from a component score much lower than 8 (very good) to begin with -- Y just isn't showing the same level of performance skills that X did. But he skates a clean program with no mistakes, so once you've established your score in your mind, there's no reason for you to reduce it. If he smiles (emotional involvement) at the spectators (projection) and maybe pumps his fist (emotional and physical involvement in the performance, not choreography though) after landing the last jump and/or hitting the ending pose, would you maybe go up a little from whatever you had been thinking during the performance. If you were mentally debating between two adjacent scores, would the fact of a clean program inspire you to round up?

What about skater Z, who sells a playful program to the audience with good (and varied) energy and shows lots of personality and involvement. But his posture and positions are just as weak as Y's. Where would you start for that performance? What if Z falls, rolls over and right back onto his feet a second and a half later, grins at the audience with a humorous gesture to acknowledge the mistake, and is right back into the choreography within 3 seconds. How much, if anything, would you reduce the component score for that?



The type of mistakes makes a difference. If they affect the base value (e.g., popping or downgrading a jump, losing several levels on a non-jump element, losing a whole element) along with negative GOE and/or fall deductions, then higher PCS might not be able to make up for the loss of points. Rotated quads with falls still can earn more points than triples, so guys who can rotate multiple falls will still be in the mix on base value.

Required penalties that are large enough to make a difference to the multi-quad guys will have a disproportionately large effect on skaters without quads. So to me, it makes more sense to make the loss of points with negative GOEs on failed quads larger than the loss of points for mistakes on lower value elements.

I'll keep it short since you're right about this being a tangent, as well as a discussion that crops up time and time again. Sorry for the detour!

Skater X - 7.25-7.5 in Performance (and probably a similar score in Interpretation). It's a very severe disruption from the performance.

Full disclosure - When considering your words of "255 seconds were some of the best you'd ever seen, and 15 seconds were some of the worst," I also feel compelled to think about *GASP* comparing skaters. Which I know IJS discourages, but it's impossible not to do. Those 255 seconds being some of the best I've ever seen probably aren't SIGNIFICANTLY better than the second-best 255 seconds I'm seeing from another skater that day (or would anticipate seeing, if Skater X skates early). But those 15 seconds are probably going to be among the worst I see in the competition. That's why I'm taking off more than 1.0 (as you suggested doing).

Skater Y - Somewhere in the 5-6 range. The clean program would push me to the 6-6.25, especially if the mere excitement of seeing someone skate clean got me and/or the audience excited.

Skater Z - 7.75-8.5. I'm inclined to reward him for being so darn charismatic about his fall and making it work with the rest of his performance, though he'd probably be closer to 6-7 if he wasn't so much fun to watch.

You're right about the types of mistakes making a difference - in my post, I was thinking primarily of falls, step-outs, etc., which are generally more disruptive than pops/URs/downgrades and more likely to result in lower PCS. IMO, I'd like to see larger negative GOEs on the more difficult elements. The clean skaters without quads and great performances (who do not receive the highest threshold of PCS because of their TES limitations) deserve a shot to win when the top guys rotate but fall. Or let's reward PCS more fairly to the guys with lower BV. IMO, Jason Brown should be receiving equal PCS to Patrick and Hanyu when Jason skates clean and Patrick/Hanyu have two or more falls.

 

[gkelly]

Skater Z - 7.75-8.5. I'm inclined to reward him for being so darn charismatic about his fall and making it work with the rest of his performance, though he'd probably be closer to 6-7 if he wasn't so much fun to watch.

So would you actually give him a higher score for the way he handled the fall than if he had stayed on his feet as planned?

 

[andromache]

So would you actually give him a higher score for the way he handled the fall than if he had stayed on his feet as planned?

I actually might . It's not the fall/the way he handled the fall ALONE bringing me up from a 6-7 to a 7.75-8.5 (overall energy, personality, etc., all of which Skater Y lacks), but it would definitely impress me. And I tried to honestly imagine myself as a judge making quick, gut judgments about something as instinctive and feeling-driven as "performance."

(I'd also be the kind of judge to only give -2 instead of -3 GOE when pairs fall on their SBS jumps in sync with one another ).

 

[skylark]

Quote Originally Posted by StitchMonkey View Post
... Raf basically recruited Mariah Bell ..

I am unaware of any reliable evidence that Raf recruited Mariah.
AFAIK, Mariah has not said so, Raf has not said so, and USFS has not said so.

I'm cross-posting, but I feel it's very important to show this here, since some are still assuming, and saying, that Raf "recruited" Mariah. The following is a quote from an interview of Rafael conducted over the week-end at TDF. The bolding is mine.

----------

Interviewer -- Now you also started to push Mariah Bell.

Raf – There’s an interesting situation with her. I still have our texting in my phone – 54 her messages and 4 my. Only when she said that she anyway go to California for competitions and want to meet there, I said – let’s meet. She asked me to help her in tandem with her coach Kori Ade. I said, first tell to your coach, if she agrees, than we’ll start. I’ve already had an experience of working in tandem: I worked with Jeffrey Buttle and his coach, with whom he worked since he was seven. In the end, Battle became the world champion. Mariah went to the coach, and she refused. But Bell said, that she’s leaving anyway. Will you take me? And I was thinking and thinking and finally agreed. But I still keeping the history of texting – it’s calmer for me. So, no one can say that I acted dishonestly. That’s my attitude.

http://fs-gossips.com/rafael-arutyunyan-some-coaches-cling-to-an-athlete-like-to-a-rocket/

--------------

Aaannnd, here's a teaser: The article includes Raf's answer about what happened with Nathan, Marina, etc. Also a fun couple of sentences about Brezina.

 

[el henry]

I don't know who is "still saying" that Raf did anything, although I do remember a lot of uncalled for, IMO, criticism of posters and certainly misstatements of American law.

Be that as it may, I found the interview highly amusing, for reasons I will state in its own thread and have stated on GS. to my reading of this article, Raf would take credit for the fact that ice freezes. He think highly of himself, I'll give him that. Too funny.

 

[skylark]

I don't know who is "still saying" that Raf did anything, although I do remember a lot of uncalled for, IMO, criticism of posters and certainly misstatements of American law.

Be that as it may, I found the interview highly amusing, for reasons I will state in its own thread and have stated on GS. to my reading of this article, Raf would take credit for the fact that ice freezes. He think highly of himself, I'll give him that. Too funny.

As I quoted, it was stated on this thread just a page or two ago that Raf "recruited" Mariah. But even if that hadn't been the case, it's good to at least hear Raf's viewpoint.

 

[gkelly]

I actually might . It's not the fall/the way he handled the fall ALONE bringing me up from a 6-7 to a 7.75-8.5 (overall energy, personality, etc., all of which Skater Y lacks), but it would definitely impress me.

And in between skater X, whose fall was very disruptive, and skater Z, whose fall did not detract from and perhaps slightly enhanced the experience of the performance, we have the vast majority of skating falls, in which the skater goes down, gets into an awkward position to get up, and then is back into the program within 2-3 seconds.

So if you take off 1.5-2.0 for X's big disruption and nothing for Z's nondisruptive fall, how much do you take for typical minimally disruptive fall?

I might take off 0.25 or less per quick down-and-up fall. "Less" meaning that if I were debating between two scores I would round down, but if I thought "That performance is exactly what I think of as 7.5 (for example) -- it's better than 7.25 even with the fall and wouldn't have been up to my 7.75 standard even without it" then I'd just go ahead and give the 7.5.

But if there were a second similar mistake I'd go to 7.25.

And I tried to honestly imagine myself as a judge making quick, gut judgments about something as instinctive and feeling-driven as "performance."

(I'd also be the kind of judge to only give -2 instead of -3 GOE when pairs fall on their SBS jumps in sync with one another ).

Makes sense to me.

 

[el henry]

As I quoted, it was stated on this thread just a page or two ago that Raf "recruited" Mariah. But even if that hadn't been the case, it's good to at least hear Raf's viewpoint.

I didn't go back in the thread, so if someone mentioned the dread "recruitment" word here, then it was still mentioned. I was thinking more of another thread where it was discussed.

And I agree it's good to hear Raf's viewpoint, or else I wouldn't read it. And I'm not being snarky when I say he makes me laugh out loud. Sometimes I think he means to, other times not. He keeps me on my toes.

 

[Mrs. P]

I'm cross-posting, but I feel it's very important to show this here, since some are still assuming, and saying, that Raf "recruited" Mariah. The following is a quote from an interview of Rafael conducted over the week-end at TDF. The bolding is mine.

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Interviewer -- Now you also started to push Mariah Bell.

Raf – There’s an interesting situation with her. I still have our texting in my phone – 54 her messages and 4 my. Only when she said that she anyway go to California for competitions and want to meet there, I said – let’s meet. She asked me to help her in tandem with her coach Kori Ade. I said, first tell to your coach, if she agrees, than we’ll start. I’ve already had an experience of working in tandem: I worked with Jeffrey Buttle and his coach, with whom he worked since he was seven. In the end, Battle became the world champion. Mariah went to the coach, and she refused. But Bell said, that she’s leaving anyway. Will you take me? And I was thinking and thinking and finally agreed. But I still keeping the history of texting – it’s calmer for me. So, no one can say that I acted dishonestly. That’s my attitude.

http://fs-gossips.com/rafael-arutyunyan-some-coaches-cling-to-an-athlete-like-to-a-rocket/

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Aaannnd, here's a teaser: The article includes Raf's answer about what happened with Nathan, Marina, etc. Also a fun couple of sentences about Brezina.

Well, to try to go somewhat on topic---that is interesting to me that Kori refused to co-coach with Raf, if his story holds true, because obviously Jason is spending part of his time with Frank Carroll.

It's totally possible that Kori sensed that Mariah might be better off change coaches totally then try to straddle between two different coaches and that's why she declined. There's probably more to the story/negotiation than we'll ever know, so that's all I'm going to say about this topic.

Again going back to the thread topic: Raf's really quite harsh on Nathan and it sounds like they haven't mesh well in the past few months. But I guess he's going to be with in at NHK? I have a feeling this relationship doesn't have a lot to stand on.

The part about the lack of opportunity to improve the 3A is interesting...that might prove costly for Nathan.

– If he will jump and nothing happen…..But while he’s a dropout. I did not have enough time to teach him axel and salchow. It remained to stabilise this two jump and then grow up in terms of intelligence. After all. program components are not actually an intelligence. He’s not a bad guy, a little stubborn, and he’s clever, but for it was always difficult with him. My team and I found a common language with Adam and Ashley. They’re training, improving and do not go down like the majority of skaters of their age.