2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[andromache]

Whom would you choose as a new coach for Max? I too think he needs to switch coaches, but I don't really know who would be the best fit for him. I love Tom but he is not the right coach to take Max to the next level.

Agree that Tom Z just isn't working to move Max's career much. Even if some individual aspects of his skating have improved since he was the US National champion, he hasn't improved (technically or artistically or in terms of consistency) enough to make much forward progress in his results.

I try not to be one of those fans who immediately jumps to "they need to change coaches!" and if Max is happy with Tom, then that's good for him. But it's possible that Max isn't making the most of his talent and that someone like Carroll or BOrser could get more out of him. Or Raf, though I doubt that would happen because Adam.

Raf, for example, has really helped Adam come from a rather stagnant place in his career and Adam is, IMO, making the most of his talent and strengths now. Jason...not sure yet. I would give the benefit of another injury-free season before calling his career stagnant. Max though, may need to find his Raf.

 

[Arriba627]

Agree that Tom Z just isn't working to move Max's career much. Even if some individual aspects of his skating have improved since he was the US National champion, he hasn't improved (technically or artistically or in terms of consistency) enough to make much forward progress in his results.

I try not to be one of those fans who immediately jumps to "they need to change coaches!" and if Max is happy with Tom, then that's good for him. But it's possible that Max isn't making the most of his talent and that someone like Carroll or BOrser could get more out of him. Or Raf, though I doubt that would happen because Adam.

Raf, for example, has really helped Adam come from a rather stagnant place in his career and Adam is, IMO, making the most of his talent and strengths now. Jason...not sure yet. I would give the benefit of another injury-free season before calling his career stagnant. Max though, may need to find his Raf.

Too much coach shopping probably isn't a good thing. And I think Tom is a good motivator and has helped Max improve certain areas of his skating. If I'm not mistaken, he has been with him for 7 or 8 years now, and I think he has probably gotten all he is going to get out of the relationship. Time to move on. It would be nice if it could be someone in CO. so as to not disrupt his studies. I think Max has the drive and the work ethic - he just needs someone different at this point.

 

[Mrs. P]

This is the best sports analogy I have ever seen. It's so good to have another basketball fan here, even if it is professional.

I'm also a huge college basketball fan! Honestly it what kept me going when the NBA was less fun to watch. Actually, college basketball is probably a better example of my analogy.

Nathan is a full-court press team like University of Louisville (or your favorite physical full-court press team goes here) or Michigan State.

Jason is more like the University of Michigan, a team known for its ball handling and finesse. He also has the competitor qualities of a scrappy mid-major team like Wichita State. Actually, the 2013 NCAA Championship game, with, you guess it -- Michigan and Louisville!! -- is one of my favorites because we had two VERY different style teams play strong to the very end. I'm hoping to see something like that at Nationals.

As a lifelong Cleveland resident and Cavs fan, just got to say: LeBron is more like a Yuzuru Hanyu than a Nathan Chen, lbrh. One of, if not the, greatest of all time.

As an Adam Rippon fan, sad to see my bird compared to Kevin Durant, who is now probably the least popular man in basketball.

Cavs fans (and Cleveland sports fans in general): We won the NBA finals, but we still have the biggest underdog chip on our shoulders and are perpetually salty and we just can't help it. Sorry! Lol.

(Mrs. P, have you seen the Hamilton/LeBron parody in which Steph Curry is the equivalent of Aaron Burr? Very amusing and probably something fans of all teams can appreciate.)

Yes, I remember you were a big Cleveland fan and I'm delighted for you -- even if I personally was not delighted with the result.

Yeah, I was REALLY hesitant to make the Nathan/LeBron comparison because truly LeBron has a sphere of influence/legacy in the NBA that Nathan obviously does not have yet in figure skating. But will say that I think as far as -style of play and mindset they are really similar.

I personally have always admired Kevin Durant. I still liked him even when the Sonics went over to Oklahoma City. I think Durant's always been a gifted player who is always a factor but just needed the right place to shine --which we saw in Oklahoma and we are seeing in Oakland. I feel like in that the comparison to Adam is appropriate -- given your earlier post that he needed Raf to bring him out to shine.

I'll be sure to check out the Hamilton parody.

Interesting analogy too. However I wouldn't call Brown a Stephen Curry because Curry's insane 3-point ability is like landing 4 quads in a program it's almost automatic... Because it's such technical "superiority" - to me, Hanyu is a Steph Curry because he is unbelievably gifted technically but also exhibits finesse - like Curry who has almost "broken" basketball, his athletic ability has essentially "broken" skating. Jin is like a Klay Thompson with all his quads - like Thompson has excellent long ball ability but often isn't the one to make the plays Curry makes nor always able to hit in the clutch. Chen is indeed a Lebron who attacks guns blazing even if there are errors and aims to overpower his opponents with his athleticism even if it doesn't quite look as pretty. Brown is more like a Tony Parker who has finesse, beautiful execution, and can rack up the 2's but isn't an offensive powerhouse compared to flashier players or ones who can hit the long ball.

I Klay Thompson. He's played at Washington State University (my husband's alma mater) and also I have a very slight six-degrees of separation with him: Turns out he's my former boss' husband's nephew. So that's like what, three degrees?

I think the Jin/Klay comparison is very appropriate.

I do think Curry underdog story has similarities to Jason's under-the-radar career (and perhaps Curry's NCAA elite-eight performance is probably his version of Jason's Riverdance at U.S. Nationals) and I do think that Curry's ability to put his body in position for impossible shots is like Jason's using his flexibility to get the most of his choreography/spins/steps/etc.

All that said, I agree the Steph Curry/Hanyu comparison is also appropriate and probably more so given his current status as a two-time MVP (and like Hanyu, sadly, he wasn't able to show up for the big NBA finals ultimately). I wonder what player could be Fernandez? Tony Parker is a good comparison to Jason. And it's worth noting the Spurs are also former NBA Playoff champs, so perhaps Jason will have his "Spurs" moment in the future.

But my main goal -- imperfect comparisons aside -- is that the NBA is fun because there is a variety of styles/strategy at play....compared to the isolation/power basketball that dominated prior to Curry and the like entering the NBA in the late 2000s.

 

[concorde]

Frankly, whether or not you get warm fuzzies from Jason's skating or I get them from Adam or Nathan is kind of irrelevant because they're all extremely talented competitors worthy of representing the US.

I think you are trying to put words in my mouth. Never did I say or imply that any of the 4 top men are not "extremely talented competitors worthy of representing the US." Each certainly are!

 

[ice coverage]

... Even if some individual aspects of his skating have improved since he was the US National champion, he hasn't improved (technically or artistically or in terms of consistency) enough to make much forward progress in his results....

LOL, I would count winning Skate America as a sign of Max's progress since 2013.
Yes, it was last season, but his GP gold remains the first and only for U.S. men since 2011.
(Not saying that others do not have other unique and significant accomplishments to their names.)

ETA:

... Max at least seems to be on an uphill climb this season though his SP seems to be plaguing him. ...

Came back to add and acknowledge this quote from a different post of yours.
I agree that Max seems to be on an uphill climb, and I thank you for expressing that .
I'm proud of him as he keeps moving himself uphill.​

Super-exciting that Nathan and Adam qualified for the GPF . Also the first U.S. men since 2011. Good luck to them :yay:.
I am impressed also that Nathan is the youngest U.S. man ever to win a GP medal .

I hope that NHK was just a little blip for Jason, and that Max and he each will make a strong run at Nats for the World team slots.

I'm torn about Golden Spin.
I hope Jason is not injured. If he wants(??) to go and if is given a slot, I would understand that ... at the same time that I would feel a pang for Alex Johnson, who has had only one international competition this season.
Good luck to Tim, Vincent, and whoever the third man will be :yay:.

---

ETA:

Happy to see Raf with Nathan at NHK.

But on a shallow note , sad that Nathan's purple velvet pants are no more :sad4: .
​

 

[chuckm]

I don't see a problem if Max Aaron went to Rafael Aratunian. Max and Adam are two completely different types of skaters. Max needs help with spins, transitions and overall presentation skills, while those are areas Adam has in spades. Adam could use some help with quads. I could see them as helping one another rather than as rivals.

 

[skylark]

There's a saying "When Opportunity Knock's, Open the door" That's what Nathan was able to do. ... He also had to skate after the home country favorite and reigning Olympic Champion. The fact that he didn't crumble under the pressure is, IMO, a very big deal. I was expecting to see more praise for Nathan's performance than I'm seeing in the forum and I'm a little sad about it.

:agree:

I'm also disappointed to see so much negative "appreciation" for Nathan. But I know many people are more interested in analyzing. However...

We should be celebrating! So, let's us celebrate Nathan's extraordinary progress through 3 events this season! :hap93:

Jason is one of my favorites in the men's field, period. He's one of the skaters who got me back into following FS more closely, in 2013 at SA. His charisma, devotion to quality and improvement, and absolute insistence on portraying the piece of music he's skating to are some of the best reasons to watch the sport, IMO. He shares all these traits with Ashley, whom I also saw in person at SA 2013, and I was absolutely stunned and thrilled by both these skaters and their awesome presence on the ice.

y'all

 

[Tavi...]

I think you are trying to put words in my mouth. Never did I say or imply that any of the 4 top men are not "extremely talented competitors worthy of representing the US." Each certainly are!

Sorry, no intent to put words in your mouth - clearly I misunderstood.

 

[mrrice]

:agree:

I'm also disappointed to see so much negative "appreciation" for Nathan. But I know many people are more interested in analyzing. However...

We should be celebrating! So, let's us celebrate Nathan's extraordinary progress through 3 events this season! :hap93:

Jason is one of my favorites in the men's field, period. He's one of the skaters who got me back into following FS more closely, in 2013 at SA. His charisma, devotion to quality and improvement, and absolute insistence on portraying the piece of music he's skating to are some of the best reasons to watch the sport, IMO. He shares all these traits with Ashley, whom I also saw in person at SA 2013, and I was absolutely stunned and thrilled by both these skaters and their awesome presence on the ice.

y'all

Holy Cow, Thank You So Much...............................................................

 

[Tavi...]

:agree:

I'm also disappointed to see so much negative "appreciation" for Nathan. But I know many people are more interested in analyzing. However...

We should be celebrating! So, let's us celebrate Nathan's extraordinary progress through 3 events this season! :hap93:

Jason is one of my favorites in the men's field, period. He's one of the skaters who got me back into following FS more closely, in 2013 at SA. His charisma, devotion to quality and improvement, and absolute insistence on portraying the piece of music he's skating to are some of the best reasons to watch the sport, IMO. He shares all these traits with Ashley, whom I also saw in person at SA 2013, and I was absolutely stunned and thrilled by both these skaters and their awesome presence on the ice.

y'all

I think it cuts both ways.

If you read through the posts here since yesterday, you'll find statements such as (paraphrased), I'm so happy there's finally a US man worth rooting for again, Nathan is the only US skater who can possibly contend for a medal at Worlds, Nathan is the future of US skating, Nathan is the only true competitor, Nathan "beat the crap" out of Jason and you're stupid if you don't see that, we should be celebrating the fact that Nathan beat Jason, people are jealous of Nathan because he's an upstart and he has everything, etc.

Sorry, but that kind of talk from his fans and supporters doesn't makes me want to celebrate Nathan's successes, especially as not one of the people whose statements I paraphrased expressed any concern for Jason's uncharacteristicly poor performance.

 

[andromache]

LOL, I would count winning Skate America as a sign of Max's progress since 2013.
Yes, it was last season, but his GP gold remains the first and only for U.S. men since 2011.
(Not saying that others do not have other unique and significant accomplishments to their names.)

LOL, unfortunately Max has won zero GP medals since then. He beat Shoma Uno for that gold and hasn't come close to beating him since then. I don't want to take away his accomplishment, but looking at his "body of work," the SkAm win does not seem to be indicative of a general upward trajectory in his career. Max isn't skating to his full potential, IMO, and it's going to take one of three things to see an improvement in his competitive results: higher BV (i.e., more quads than the salchow), better performances in terms of choreography/interpretation (while he has improved in this area, judges seem to respond better to the performance quality of Jason and Adam and YMMV, not trying to argue with anyone, OR skating with more consistency. He has been skating relatively similar content for awhile, and keeping that in mind, it's unfortunate that he hasn't mastered competing what he trains. The mistakes he makes in competition tend to erode much of the BV advantage he has over guys like Adam and Jason, and his BV isn't high enough to do what Nathan does (which is rotate-fall) his way to high PCS.

A change could be what he needs. But if Max is happy with the trajectory of his career and with Tom, what he thinks matters most.

 

[andromache]

I think it cuts both ways.

If you read through the posts here since yesterday, you'll find statements such as (paraphrased), I'm so happy there's finally a US man worth rooting for again, Nathan is the only US skater who can possibly contend for a medal at Worlds, Nathan is the future of US skating, Nathan is the only true competitor, Nathan "beat the crap" out of Jason and you're stupid if you don't see that, we should be celebrating the fact that Nathan beat Jason, people are jealous of Nathan because he's an upstart and he has everything, etc.

Sorry, but that kind of talk from his fans and supporters doesn't makes me want to celebrate Nathan's successes, especially as not one of the people whose statements I paraphrased expressed any concern for Jason's uncharacteristicly poor performance.

If I didn't want to celebrate the successes of a skater because their fans annoyed me, I would celebrate the successes of zero skaters.

 

[skylark]

Holy Cow, Thank You So Much...............................................................

You're welcome. And ..... we should maybe have a Holy Cow icon in our bank. :eeking: <<< closest I could find.

 

[skylark]

I think it cuts both ways.

If you read through the posts here since yesterday, you'll find statements such as (paraphrased), I'm so happy there's finally a US man worth rooting for again, Nathan is the only US skater who can possibly contend for a medal at Worlds, Nathan is the future of US skating, Nathan is the only true competitor, Nathan "beat the crap" out of Jason and you're stupid if you don't see that, we should be celebrating the fact that Nathan beat Jason, people are jealous of Nathan because he's an upstart and he has everything, etc.

Sorry, but that kind of talk from his fans and supporters doesn't makes me want to celebrate Nathan's successes, especially as not one of the people whose statements I paraphrased expressed any concern for Jason's uncharacteristicly poor performance.

Oh, absolutely. You and I are in agreement. It's the flip side of the coin. Part of it's about fear that someone will surpass their favorite, and part of it seems, IMO, to be about the idea that winning now is the only thing. Also, this forum seems to have a lot of posters who like to express their opinions in opposition to others, so it makes many posts about either/or, or other extremes. But I don't see it that way; I think conversations can go lots of different ways and I enjoy those that do.

Unfortunately, I too have had the experience you spoke of, where someone's unkind remarks about a skater I like almost made me want to root against another that I'm actually also a big fan of. I have to struggle against that, but you're right, sometimes the tone of posts, and the lack of compassion towards some, makes it very difficult, especially if it's a skater you're just neutral toward. I probably struggle more with this than I should, because I'm a relatively recent regular here, but I'm workin' on it.

 

[Tavi...]

Oh, absolutely. You and I are in agreement. It's the flip side of the coin. Part of it's about fear that someone will surpass their favorite, and part of it seems, IMO, to be about the idea that winning now is the only thing. Also, this forum seems to have a lot of posters who like to express their opinions in opposition to others, so it makes many posts about either/or, or other extremes. But I don't see it that way; I think conversations can go lots of different ways and I enjoy those that do.

Unfortunately, I too have had the experience you spoke of, where someone's unkind remarks about a skater I like almost made me want to root against another that I'm actually also a big fan of. I have to struggle against that, but you're right, sometimes the tone of posts, and the lack of compassion towards some, makes it very difficult, especially if it's a skater you're just neutral toward. I probably struggle more with this than I should, because I'm a relatively recent regular here, but I'm workin' on it.

Thanks for your kind and thoughtful post it is much appreciated.

 

[skylark]

 

[Mrs. P]

The U.S. men haven't medaled at Worlds since 2009 and haven't had anyone in the GPF since the 2010-2011 season (and haven't medaled there since 2009) Basically, the general trend to success has been to get multiple quads in a program consistently and the U.S. men, for all their beautiful skates hasn't gotten there.

Yes, while Jason finished 4th at Worlds and help (with Adam) help maintain three spots -- he was a very distant 4th.

And Nathan is keeping par-to-par on the quad thing. You can nit pick about the GOE and about the other stuff, but what matters is he's landing them and getting some huge scores in his first year that no other U.S. man has received in a debut year (even when you account for the general scoring inflation). He's made the GPF in his first year at the age of 17.

So yeah, I get why there is such visceral reaction to Nathan. I don't agree with that he's the be-all, end-all of U.S. men's skating, but obviously it's human nature to believe he is at the moment.

I think if Nathan can push the other U.S. guys to be more competitive, I don't think that's a bad thing.

They're showing Jason's skate right now on NBC and Tara and Johnny are actually being quite kind -- they are saying he needs the quad and said his skate are disappointed. Tara said a ton of nice things. "I get lost in his skating" "When skaters make one or two mistakes, they usually let the program go....but Jason doesn't. I'm still invested in this piece." Johnny is more critical, but that's nothing new, lol.

 

[Tavi...]

The U.S. men haven't medaled at Worlds since 2009 and haven't had anyone in the GPF since the 2010-2011 season (and haven't medaled there since 2009) Basically, the general trend to success has been to get multiple quads in a program consistently and the U.S. men, for all their beautiful skates hasn't gotten there.

Yes, while Jason finished 4th at Worlds and help (with Adam) help maintain three spots -- he was a very distant 4th.

And Nathan's doing just that. You can nit pick about the GOE and about the other stuff, but what matters is he's landing them and getting some huge scores in his first year that no other U.S. man has received in a debut year (even when you account for the general scoring inflation). He's made the GPF in his first year at the age of 17.

So yeah, I get why there is such visceral reaction to Nathan. I don't agree with it, but obviously it's human nature.

I think if Nathan can push the other U.S. guys to be more competitive, I don't think that's a bad thing.

They're showing Jason's skate right now on NBC and Tara and Johnny are actually being quite kind -- they are saying he needs the quad and said his skate are disappointed. Tara said a ton of nice things. "I get lost in his skating" "When skaters make one or two mistakes, they usually let the program go....but Jason doesn't. I'm still invested in this piece." Johnny is more critical, but that's nothing new, lol.

I agree with what you say about Nathan and am happy to know NBC not tearing Jason to shreds.

My point in mentioning Worlds was only that he has demonstrated ability to deliver under pressure.

For me celebrating something implies not only that you're happy for someone's achievements, good fortune, etc., but you want to share the joy with others. And that was why I mentioned the tone of some comments here

 

[frida80]

The U.S. men haven't medaled at Worlds since 2009 and haven't had anyone in the GPF since the 2010-2011 season (and haven't medaled there since 2009) Basically, the general trend to success has been to get multiple quads in a program consistently and the U.S. men, for all their beautiful skates hasn't gotten there.

Yes, while Jason finished 4th at Worlds and help (with Adam) help maintain three spots -- he was a very distant 4th.

And Nathan is keeping par-to-par on the quad thing. You can nit pick about the GOE and about the other stuff, but what matters is he's landing them and getting some huge scores in his first year that no other U.S. man has received in a debut year (even when you account for the general scoring inflation). He's made the GPF in his first year at the age of 17.

So yeah, I get why there is such visceral reaction to Nathan. I don't agree with that he's the be-all, end-all of U.S. men's skating, but obviously it's human nature to believe he is at the moment.

I think if Nathan can push the other U.S. guys to be more competitive, I don't think that's a bad thing.

They're showing Jason's skate right now on NBC and Tara and Johnny are actually being quite kind -- they are saying he needs the quad and said his skate are disappointed. Tara said a ton of nice things. "I get lost in his skating" "When skaters make one or two mistakes, they usually let the program go....but Jason doesn't. I'm still invested in this piece." Johnny is more critical, but that's nothing new, lol.

I'm watching right now. I wish Tara and Johnny could comment less during the programs.

 

[Mrs. P]

I agree with what you say about Nathan and am happy to know NBC not tearing Jason to shreds.

My point in mentioning Worlds was only that he has demonstrated ability to deliver under pressure.

For me celebrating something implies not only that you're happy for someone's achievements, good fortune, etc., but you want to share the joy with others. And that was why I mentioned the tone of some comments here

Yeah, I don't disagree with you regarding Jason and Worlds -- and how well he handled the pressure -- but people have short memories and some people just care whether they're on the podium or not.

But let's face it, figure skating is an individual sport and there's going to be a bit of trash talking-- no different than what you see in other sports. Trust me...LeBron James fans throw some pretty hurling insults at Steph Curry and vice versa. It makes the stuff said here seem way mild in comparison. People just like to talk that way.

I'm watching right now. I wish Tara and Johnny could comment less during the programs.

Yeah, I agree. They are talking SO MUCH during Yuzu's skate.