Slow Motion Jump Editing (AKA: Sam's Jump-a-ma-tron)

[ioanna]

Yuna did one at Junior Worlds in 2005, but the quality of the video is bad. She has a different entry than the other ladies here though, from an inside three turn, whereas the ladies above do outside three turn and step. The second jump at least seems to have the same technique as later in her career: https://youtu.be/v4DVPCbs8LE?t=4m12s

It's like she barely touches the ice with her toepick when she goes into the second 3T. Amazing. By comparison, the other ladies look ok on the take-off of their first jumps but they're visibly turning on their toepick for the second jumps.

 

[sunnystars]

Yuna did one at Junior Worlds in 2005, but the quality of the video is bad. She has a different entry than the other ladies here though, from an inside three turn, whereas the ladies above do outside three turn and step. The second jump at least seems to have the same technique as later in her career: https://youtu.be/v4DVPCbs8LE?t=4m12s

a better example would be from her EX version of Homage to Korea:
https://youtu.be/mdKrIdh9SKM?t=40s

but anyway, this is quite an interesting observation! thank you for your insight

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I'll be doing some editing tomorrow and sunday for work. Maybe you guys can drop some suggestions here of some good jump techniques and I'll compile a video of that too......off the clock of course

I only can use HD videos of 720pHD or greater.

 

[largeman]

Not sure if anyone's interested/this is relevant, but I'll post anyway:

The "big jumpers" like Carolina, Liza and Yuna have next to no prerotation on flip/Lutz jumps, but most of them do take off forwards on the toe loop after pivoting >90 degrees on the toe pick, so this amount of PR is probably inevitable/totally normal. I was bored the other night and 0.25x-ed videos for like four hours, and I did some investigating on their 3T (including Adelina since she also has a huge, high-quality 3T) and they generally take off forwards. Look at Carolina (from this video), Liza example one and two (from the slow-mo replays here) and Adelina example one and two (aaaand I just realised this was a 2T, but the mechanism is similar) (sources here and here). Yuna is the anomaly who leaves the ice sideways relative to her trajectory (freeze frame from this video).

Such a wonderful collection, thank you.

I agree with your observations. Generally the loop and the salchow (and the toe loop, in the majority of cases like you pointed out) take off forwards. That is, the takeoff motion starts in the backward position but by the time the toe pick leaves the ice, the foot is facing in the ~180 degree direction (i.e. forward). This is the mechanics of the jump. A triple loop just cannot have "three full revolutions in the air."

The lutz and the flip are where you see the biggest variance from skater to skater in terms of "how many revolutions are completed in the air," while all considered acceptable and granted full BV. You have Carolina - leave the ice backwards, land backwards (~3 revolutions), and you have Gracie, Elena, etc. - leave the ice pretty much forwards, land backwards (>2 1/2 revolutions). Then there are skaters leave the ice forwards and land just within 90 degrees short (~2 1/4 revolutions)- still okay, deserve full BV. Obviously the jump quality and technical difficulty is vastly different across these cases, and the GOE really should reflect that, in a perfect world. I will say, I love Mao more than all other skaters combined, but I can understand if her triple flip, gorgeous as it is, often doesn't get a big positive GOE because the landing is just not quite backwards.

 

[Ultra]

The lutz and the flip are where you see the biggest variance from skater to skater in terms of "how many revolutions are completed in the air," while all considered acceptable and granted full BV. You have Carolina - leave the ice backwards, land backwards (~3 revolutions), and you have Gracie, Elena, etc. - leave the ice pretty much forwards, land backwards (>2 1/2 revolutions). Then there are skaters leave the ice forwards and land just within 90 degrees short (~2 1/4 revolutions)- still okay, deserve full BV. Obviously the jump quality and technical difficulty is vastly different across these cases, and the GOE really should reflect that, in a perfect world. I will say, I love Mao more than all other skaters combined, but I can understand if her triple flip, gorgeous as it is, often doesn't get a big positive GOE because the landing is just not quite backwards.

This is merely rationalization of a biased system. There is no reason why Mao should have less GOE than the other skaters, in fact, according to the rules she should have more.

These are the criteria for GOE, nothing else:

1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

The takeoff rotation is not watched in slow-motion by the judging system, only the landing.
The skater is allowed up to 180 degrees of rotation for takeoff - but any remaining amount does not carry-over or "add" to the landing.
If skater X rotates 90 degrees on takeoff, and skater Y rotates 120 degrees, their jumps are considered equal by the system all else being equal.
If skater X lands at the quarter-turn, and skater Y lands 45 degrees short of the quarter-turn, skater Y underrotated regardless of whether their takeoff used less rotation.
Landing is in no way measured relative to takeoff rotation, only Line-Of-Flight.

Mao's wrongfully downgraded Flip at this year's GPF:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-yEm23Rjyd5Y/VtFN130iFeI/AAAAAAAAAag/cE6bcNpKhdg/s2000/_.png

Yuna's so-called "textbook" Flip, which is clearly less rotated on the landing (her body is facing forward):
http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-v61bsc4ek6Y/VG_S0XZDnjI/AAAAAAAAACQ/vK15isxzDgo/s2000/_.png

Yuna's so-called "textbook" Solo Lutz in Sochi
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-iOEJCdFNOtg/VLC375KgnTI/AAAAAAAAAEg/anErNWfGkmw/s10000/_.png

 

[solani]

This is merely rationalization of a biased system. There is no reason why Mao should have less GOE than the other skaters, in fact, according to the rules she should have more.

These are the criteria for GOE, nothing else:

1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

The takeoff rotation is not watched in slow-motion by the judging system, only the landing.
The skater is allowed up to 180 degrees of rotation for takeoff - but any remaining amount does not carry-over or "add" to the landing.
If skater X rotates 90 degrees on takeoff, and skater Y rotates 120 degrees, their jumps are considered equal by the system all else being equal.
If skater X lands at the quarter-turn, and skater Y lands 45 degrees short of the quarter-turn, skater Y underrotated regardless of whether their takeoff used less rotation.
Landing is in no way measured relative to takeoff rotation, only Line-Of-Flight.

Mao's wrongfully downgraded Flip at this year's GPF:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-yEm23Rjyd5Y/VtFN130iFeI/AAAAAAAAAag/cE6bcNpKhdg/s2000/_.png

Yuna's so-called "textbook" Flip, which is clearly less rotated on the landing (her body is facing forward):
http://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-v61bsc4ek6Y/VG_S0XZDnjI/AAAAAAAAACQ/vK15isxzDgo/s2000/_.png

Yuna's so-called "textbook" Solo Lutz in Sochi
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-iOEJCdFNOtg/VLC375KgnTI/AAAAAAAAAEg/anErNWfGkmw/s10000/_.png

I also think that Mao was judged harshly at GPF compared to some of the other skaters there. The call on the triple flip was harsh but very probably correct. But this has nothing to do with two of Yuna's jumps at a different competiton, with a different tech panel, that probably had a tight landing. Saying that Yuna's jumps are textbook doesn't mean that all of the jumps she ever did were textbook. But it kind of shows the high expectations that everyone has of Yuna.

 

[largeman]

This is merely rationalization of a biased system. There is no reason why Mao should have less GOE than the other skaters, in fact, according to the rules she should have more.

Well, I guess you're right. I mean, this triple flip I think ticks at least five of those boxes, and? It got mostly +1s and some 0s. It's like, what more do you want from this girl? :confused2:

I also think that Mao was judged harshly at GPF compared to some of the other skaters there. The call on the triple flip was harsh but very probably correct. But this has nothing to do with two of Yuna's jumps at a different competiton, with a different tech panel, that probably had a tight landing. Saying that Yuna's jumps are textbook doesn't mean that all of the jumps she ever did were textbook. But it kind of shows the high expectations that everyone has of Yuna.

Agree. Yuna's sochi jump landings were not her best jump landings and it's pointless to dredge up the bonkers Sochi tech panel situation. Instead, look at how she landed jumps at Vancouver (a few posts above) and all those other times she competed!

 

[petitebrie]

a better example would be from her EX version of Homage to Korea:
https://youtu.be/mdKrIdh9SKM?t=40s

Great suggestion, thanks! I made a collage here, you can see she leaves the ground between frame three and four and already has a lot of elevation by frame four, no apparent prerotation. (I don't have any photo editing software at the moment, so it's not the best quality.)

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

@Sam-Skwantch
Could you make a jumpamatron of Kolyada's LP at Europeans? There's one 3Lz in it (the one in the slow-mo part before the scores come up) which looked crazy good, no pre-rotation at all.
EDIT: the 3Lz-3T combo in the short

I know I am late delivering this and I've only just started this project tonight. His jumps are pretty nice but I can't really work in any of the Choreo into a remix. This is going to have to be a straight up jumpamatron because his presentation goes right over my head. I'm surprised because I've had a few people tell me that Adian wasn't all that compared to Kolyada. Umm...Adian is a way more enjoyable skater to watch IMO and his presentation is much more natural and has a very nice flow to it. What's wrong with me?

 

[solani]

What's wrong with me?

Nothing, really. But I like Kolyada's rather confident, stilted style. And I agree, Pitkeev is much more pleasing to watch. I think that the type of program's they'll do will always be very different.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I've redone my video on Mao Asada's Tech Panel calls at the WC since there was debate last time. Any thoughts?

Mao Asada Tech Panel Calls Pt 2
https://youtu.be/SaPw62cURKQ
Available in up to 1080p HD

 

[solani]

My thoughts: Mao wasn't at her best at Worlds, the tech panel wasn't severe with her. I hope she'll persevere.

 

[hurrah]

My thoughts: Mao's triple axel was more rotated than Ashley Wagner's triple toe loop. Ashley got full credit for her jump, and Mao's was downgraded. Therefore, the tech panel was severe with her only.

 

[ioanna]

I've redone my video on Mao Asada's Tech Panel calls at the WC since there was debate last time. Any thoughts?

Mao Asada Tech Panel Calls Pt 2
https://youtu.be/SaPw62cURKQ
Available in up to 1080p HD

Hey Sam. I was wondering if you could do a Marin Honda jumpamatron, specifically for her JGP Zagreb FS. I'm particularly interested in her 3F-2T-2Lo combo. Thanks in advance!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ENp3Sx0ICw

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Judge Wapamatron made a little slow motion video of Zhenia's 3f-3t that sparked some controversy in other threads. Feel free to check it out for yourself if you like.

https://youtu.be/d7trtu3Kj6g

Trigger Warning : Humor

 

[WeakAnkles]

Judge Wapamatron made a little slow motion video of Zhenia's 3f-3t that sparked some controversy in other threads. Feel free to check it out for yourself if you like.

https://youtu.be/d7trtu3Kj6g

Trigger Warning : Humor

Everyone needs a Judge Wapamatron in their lives to keep them honest!

 

[Marius]

Hi Sam! Can you please do a Jumpamatron of Elena Radionova's jumps in CoR? Particularly her 3Lo in the SP and the 3Lz-1Lo-3S in the LP. Judges considered those jumps fully rotated, but I would like to know if those calls were right or not. Thanks in advance

 

[Crossover]

Hi Sam, if you don't mind, could you expand your expertise to "step sequences" as well, especially on GPF's ladies event this season? If there is an edited video only showing the skaters' feet (frames showing only from their knees or halfway thighs to feet), it will more evidently show who used their blades effectively and skillfully.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Not a bad idea. If there are any particular StSeq's you'd like to see post a link here but try to find the 1080HD with 60 FPS. It really increases the quality of slow motion to have a lot of frames per second and makes zooming less choppy looking.

The problem for me is....I'm making and editing videos everyday almost now in the real world. It's hard to find much time to do "fun" editing because it can become very time consuming. I'm game though if the stars align and I find time. :yes:

 

[Mrs. P]

Not a bad idea. If there are any particular StSeq's you'd like to see post a link here but try to find the 1080HD with 60 FPS. It really increases the quality of slow motion to have a lot of frames per second and makes zooming less choppy looking.

The problem for me is....I'm making and editing videos everyday almost now in the real world. It's hard to find much time to do "fun" editing because it can become very time consuming. I'm game though if the stars align and I find time. :yes:

What Sam? YOu have to edit videos to pay the bills? God forbid!

Thanks Sam for all your work.