2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[sabinfire]

That's nice to say, Mrs P, but he can't do that. He has to worry about it. The USFS showed that all it takes is for him to double one Salchow and blam, they'll smack him in the kneecaps and shove someone else above him. He doesn't get the free passes Nathan and Adam get. Adam can stand around posing and waggling his fingers - but that's great artistry! If Max has a pause, meanwhile - "EEEEEEEEEEW HE'S SO TERRIBLE WHO CARES IF HE'S LANDING QUADS". Nathan can do little more than stroke from jump to jump for four and a half minutes and "wow! isn't he great! NEW KING NEW KING NEW KING". If Max takes out even so much as one turn of choreography "UGGGGGGGGGH HIS PROGRAMS ARE SO EMPTY AND HORRIBLE".

He has to worry about it because he is the one that actually gets punished for "not being artistic". Even when he hits all the jumps it's not good enough for people.

Choreography is so subjective and difficult to quantify. Two different skaters could do exactly the same thing but be received differently to the audience & judges.

I'm not a fan of Rippon's style of 'artistry', however I can still acknowledge that what he does is genuine and true to who he is as a performer. I can see why some fans can connect with that so well.

Max Aaron is definitely an athletic skater (which I generally prefer TBH), though I still often sense a feeling of 'disconnect' between Max's choreography and his individuality as a skater/performer. He's had programs in the past that I felt were closer to feeling authentic to me (Gladiator being a recent one), but this season they have felt ill-suited to him. YMMV, of course.

I do feel he's been "held back" a little by USFS over the years, and I have a feeling if he were say a European skater, he would probably be scored better than he is as an American. Hard to say, though.

 

[Mrs. P]

Choreography is so subjective and difficult to quantify. Two different skaters could do exactly the same thing but be received differently to the audience & judges.

That's true. Watching Nathan's GPF program-- those quads make the program. Bam, bam bam bam! The impact is felt because he landed every one of them and to the music. Polynesian Dances is a powerful piece of music and when you're hitting quads, one after another, it leaves an impression.

I think that was Ryan Bradley's point in his tweet yesterday -- That you can be in awe of all the quads yet appreciate the challenge of performing a program that has great choreographic impact. Adam's bird program, hits the right buttons -- It has the feel of The Shibs' "Fix You" FD last season. It feels slightly autobiographical and I think the audience connects to that. That's the authenticity I think sabinfire is referring to.

 

[labgoat]

Dick Button once remarked, referring to the unexpected rise of a promising skater or pair in the 1980s, that you only have to wait your turn when you are equal with the others. When you are better than the rest at something, you will rise. Nathan is an extraordinary jumper.

I think Mr. Button was referring to the Carruthers, but am not certain. Anyone remember?

 

[Mrs. P]

After the Grand Prix final, I am now more excited than ever 4CC. Eight of ten of the top scoring men can compete there; Yuzuru, Patrick, Shoma, Nathan, Patrick, Boyang, Adam and Jason! It's like a pre-world's face off. Now the question is, other than everyone qualifying for 4CC, is Yuzuru going? He hasn't gone for four years. On the other hand his 4Lo is unpredictable and he falls on his 2nd 4S. I suppose will know after Japanese nationals. :think:

As for Europeans. I guess I'll look forward to seeing Javi win again. Maybe he'll get his short clean finally.

Excuse me? The 4CC team hasn't been picked yet and there is one you are only too happy to throw on the garbage heap who will undoubtedly want to have his say.

Huh?

I think frida80 was referring to the fact that potentially eight of the top 10 men on the season's best list will be at 4CC. She also pointed out that it was still a question on how many of those folks would be there. Max isn't on the top 10 list, I don't think frida80 was trying to insult Max at all.

Certainly it's possible that lots of men from the countries these top 10 men represent would end up at 4CC instead, including Max.

 

[labgoat]

That's true. Watching Nathan's GPF program-- those quads make the program. Bam, bam bam bam! The impact is felt because he landed every one of them and to the music. Polynesian Dances is a powerful piece of music and when you're hitting quads, one after another, it leaves an impression.

I think that was Ryan Bradley's point in his tweet yesterday -- That you can be in awe of all the quads yet appreciate the challenge of performing a program that has great choreographic impact. Adam's bird program, hits the right buttons -- It has the feel of The Shibs' "Fix You" FD last season. It feels slightly autobiographical and I think the audience connects to that. That's the authenticity I think sabinfire is referring to.

I agree with you both and thank both of your work with this site and Sabinfire for her videos as my work only lets me watch skating on delay.

 

[frida80]

I think frida80 was referring to the fact that potentially eight of the top 10 men on the season's best list will be at 4CC. She also pointed out that it was still a question on how many of those folks would be there. Max isn't on the top 10 list, I don't think frida80 was trying to insult Max at all.

Certainly it's possible that lots of men from the countries these top 10 men represent would end up at 4CC instead, including Max.

That's exactly what I was saying. Thanks for clarifying I wasn't sure how to respond.

 

[mrrice]

Karne, Max won 2013 Nationals, remember? Forget the shocked reactions or whatever (which I know you'll bring up), but he won it fair and square.

He had no political capital leading up to that event. He did not have a GP event. He finished 8th the previous year. Nobody really expected him to win, especially since he was 4th coming into the free skate.

Why did he win? Because he HIT EVERY ONE OF THOSE JUMPS convincingly in an incredibly backloaded program. Two quads. Six jumps after the half-way mark, including both his 3As, and a 3T-1L-3S. His PCS was 3rd.

He did that at 2016 Nationals as well and honestly, perhaps you are right that perhaps he should have won over Adam, who one could argued benefited from a beneficial 4Z call in the FS (4Z<< not 4Z<) and a high score despite a botched 3Z-3T combo.

On the other hand, the 2016 FS from Max had a few less points than his 2013 program because 1.) He popped his 3S into a 2S. 2.) He didn't have a 3F. Yes I know he gets edge calls on it and it's a great penalt. and 3.) One less triple in the half-way point. His BV in 2013: 85.05 His BV in 2016: 81.74. His TES was about four points less. Just by points alone the 2013 FS (or even if he simply did the 3S in this 2016 FS) would have been enough to beat Adam even with the 4Z< call. The difference was only a little over a point.

My opinion is that had he done what he done at 2013 nationals (and 2013 4CC to an extent) every time from then on out, perhaps he would have gotten the PCS benefit that a lot of quad skaters tend to get and perhaps he would be in a different scenario now. We saw shades of that last season--especially at Worlds -- but that momentum really hasn't carried through to this season.

And I'm not saying that I don't think he wants to improve his artistry-- as I said, I admire him for it--but sometimes when you're playing the competitive game, you have to figure out what will get you there. You might not like Nathans quad-filled, choreo light FS, but for now it seems to be getting him attention from the judges. Max can totally do the same thing -- he just needs to figure out, again, what is the one thing that will make judges (and USFS) take notice. Maybe this bullfighter SP is the ticket -- we shall see at Nationals.

Honestly, I hope that Max does not obsess about "free passes" other skaters get (and I truly don't think he does). He has no control of that, real or perceived, and it takes away valuable energy from doing the things he can control. Max is clearly well-trained and a very determined competitor and again, his scores have been increasing incrementally, so perhaps again, he'll surprise us in a few weeks.

This is one of the best comments I've seen in a very long time. It really does remind me of my very first competitive experiences as a young dancer. My very first dance teacher was the Russian Wife of one of my Fathers co-workers. My Father worked for a defense company called Raytheon. He was a contracts lawyer for the company and was The first African American Lawyer the company ever had. You'd be surprised at how many US Men had Russian Wives. Maybe that's why I had an obsession with all things Russian from a very young age. I could say Spasibo (Thank You) and Privet (Hello) along with Hallo (in German) before my Family ever moved to the US. I'll be honest in saying that my Canadian obsession began when I was much older. I spent a VERY long time in Canada when I was touring and I really loved Banff. The first phrase I remember is "That's good coffee, Eh" from a very handsome man from Saskatewan way back in 1985. I was hooked and remain hooked with all things Canadian ever since.

If there's one thing I'd hope for everyone in the World. It would be to travel and not get so comfortable in your life that you stop looking for adventure and new experiences.

 

[karne]

On the other hand, the 2016 FS from Max had a few less points than his 2013 program because 1.) He popped his 3S into a 2S. 2.) He didn't have a 3F. Yes I know he gets edge calls on it and it's a great penalt. and 3.) One less triple in the half-way point. His BV in 2013: 85.05 His BV in 2016: 81.74. His TES was about four points less. Just by points alone the 2013 FS (or even if he simply did the 3S in this 2016 FS) would have been enough to beat Adam even with the 4Z< call. The difference was only a little over a point.

But Max is also a significantly better skater now than he was in 2013, with better spins and better edgework. Per your analyses of past Nationals, he also does not receive the same level of PCS boost that everyone else does at Nationals (I am thinking particularly of 2015, where everyone was stupidly wuzrobbing Adam when Adam got a 17 point PCS boost - most of anyone! - and Max got a grand total of 2 points boost).

My opinion is that had he done what he done at 2013 nationals (and 2013 4CC to an extent) every time from then on out, perhaps he would have gotten the PCS benefit that a lot of quad skaters tend to get and perhaps he would be in a different scenario now.

The ink was not even dry on his National title before the USFS started making public the "Max needs to work on his artistry" line. If he had repeated programs like WSS every year, he would have been roasted alive.

You might not like Nathans quad-filled, choreo light FS, but for now it seems to be getting him attention from the judges. Max can totally do the same thing -- he just needs to figure out, again, what is the one thing that will make judges (and USFS) take notice.

No, he can't do the same thing! That's what I've been trying to get through to people. He can't get away with a stroke-stroke-jump FS because he's not some adorable kid that everyone's been falling over themselves to crown for years. Look at the massive differences between the reception of Nathan's FS and Max's FS over the last couple of years. The complete deficiency of choreography in Nathan's FS is almost entirely overlooked, or handwaved if it is acknowledged. Max's FS last year and this year were eviscerated without anyone even giving this year's half a chance. The double standard is alive and well. Max cannot get away with what Nathan does.

Honestly, I hope that Max does not obsess about "free passes" other skaters get (and I truly don't think he does).

We are talking about the same guy who was robbed so hard at US Nats this year that his grandkids will be paying for it, but who sat in the press conference and claimed his own mistake. It's not like he's someone who'd roll his eyes at a camera, or retweet catty comments about his competitors.

Max Aaron is definitely an athletic skater (which I generally prefer TBH), though I still often sense a feeling of 'disconnect' between Max's choreography and his individuality as a skater/performer. He's had programs in the past that I felt were closer to feeling authentic to me (Gladiator being a recent one), but this season they have felt ill-suited to him. YMMV, of course.

But if HE did not feel that the Gladiator was authentic to him, why should he have to keep doing programs like it, just to keep people like you happy? And how much more authentic can you get than a program concept that has been lovingly developed by the skater himself?

I do feel he's been "held back" a little by USFS over the years, and I have a feeling if he were say a European skater, he would probably be scored better than he is as an American. Hard to say, though.

You only have to look at the disgusting joke that is his PCS relative to Kovtun's. Max trashes Kovtun as a skater, he is superior in every way, but Kovtun is constantly close to him in PCS.

 

[andromache]

IMO, Nathan can get away with a lack of choreography because he has better skating skills and because he's doing an incredible amount of different kinds of quads. Maybe when Max starts landing four quads in an LP he will be able to get away with a lack of choreography too?

I like Max and I respect his improvement as a skater, and I think his skating and accomplishments can be discussed without trashing and/or questioning the legitimacy of his teammates' victories. And no one is perfect, so we should also be able to acknowledge his shortcomings without being attacked.

Anyway, when discussing Nathan's shortcomings as a skater, let's remember that he's only 17. He has so much time to grow, and the ability is there. If he stays healthy and continues competing, I can imagine him being able to incorporate the difficult choreo/transitions of Hanyu! Boyang versus Nathan versus Shoma in 2022 please!

 

[Tavi...]

But Max is also a significantly better skater now than he was in 2013, with better spins and better edgework. Per your analyses of past Nationals, he also does not receive the same level of PCS boost that everyone else does at Nationals (I am thinking particularly of 2015, where everyone was stupidly wuzrobbing Adam when Adam got a 17 point PCS boost - most of anyone! - and Max got a grand total of 2 points boost).



The ink was not even dry on his National title before the USFS started making public the "Max needs to work on his artistry" line. If he had repeated programs like WSS every year, he would have been roasted alive.



No, he can't do the same thing! That's what I've been trying to get through to people. He can't get away with a stroke-stroke-jump FS because he's not some adorable kid that everyone's been falling over themselves to crown for years. Look at the massive differences between the reception of Nathan's FS and Max's FS over the last couple of years. The complete deficiency of choreography in Nathan's FS is almost entirely overlooked, or handwaved if it is acknowledged. Max's FS last year and this year were eviscerated without anyone even giving this year's half a chance. The double standard is alive and well. Max cannot get away with what Nathan does.



We are talking about the same guy who was robbed so hard at US Nats this year that his grandkids will be paying for it, but who sat in the press conference and claimed his own mistake. It's not like he's someone who'd roll his eyes at a camera, or retweet catty comments about his competitors.



But if HE did not feel that the Gladiator was authentic to him, why should he have to keep doing programs like it, just to keep people like you happy? And how much more authentic can you get than a program concept that has been lovingly developed by the skater himself?




You only have to look at the disgusting joke that is his PCS relative to Kovtun's. Max trashes Kovtun as a skater, he is superior in every way, but Kovtun is constantly close to him in PCS.

Karne. Max is not a victim. He's someone who hasn't figured out what's standing in his way and fixed it. Look at his protocols going back to 2013 and a few patterns become clear. He doesn't consistently hit level 4 or even level 3 in spins and footwork. He often subs a 4S-2T for a 4S-3T. He's capable of great jumps when he's on - and when he does, his GOE is high - but far too frequently GOE is negative because he has a wonky landing or even a fall. Same with non jump elements. Even when his GOE is positive, it's often low. That tells me not that the judges think he's inartistic but that he's simply not executing well. For a technical skater like Max, that just doesn't cut it. If he cleaned up his technical issues, I'm pretty sure his PCS would rise along with his GOE. That doesn't mean he has to abandon working on components or choose music or programs he dislikes or finds boring. But as to his music / program choices, you have to remember that performing isn't all about you the performer; it's what you communicate to the audience. If it's not working, he has to either find a way to make it work or find another piece / program he likes that works more successfully. That's his job and his choreographer's job, not the job of judges or the audience. It's not just Max who has to deal with this, it's every performer. Think about how many people couldn't stand Juke versus how many love the Piano. Jason may have loved Juke - and I'm quite sure Rohene did - but most people didn't love him in it, and I think his PCS was held back because of it.

 

[skylark]

Nathan is the first US man to medal in the GPF since 2009 (Jeremy did not medal in 2011). I, too, hope Nathan will stay healthy and we'll see him medal many, many times in years to come! Congrats, Nathan!

You're right. I didn't think Jeremy medalled in 2011 either, so I had checked three places over the previous few days. The last place said he was 3rd; and I can't find that source now! Or, I was hallucinating.

I'm glad you pointed this out for me. And it makes Nathan even more impressive, breaking the seven-year drought in US men's skating.

 

[Sydney Rose]

Karne. Max is not a victim. He's someone who hasn't figured out what's standing in his way and fixed it. Look at his protocols going back to 2013 and a few patterns become clear. He doesn't consistently hit level 4 or even level 3 in spins and footwork. He often subs a 4S-2T for a 4S-3T. He's capable of great jumps when he's on - and when he does, his GOE is high - but far too frequently GOE is negative because he has a wonky landing or even a fall. Same with non jump elements. Even when his GOE is positive, it's often low. That tells me not that the judges think he's inartistic but that he's simply not executing well. For a technical skater like Max, that just doesn't cut it. If he cleaned up his technical issues, I'm pretty sure his PCS would rise along with his GOE. That doesn't mean he has to abandon working on components or choose music or programs he dislikes or finds boring. But as to his music / program choices, you have to remember that performing isn't all about you the performer; it's what you communicate to the audience. If it's not working, he has to either find a way to make it work or find another piece / program he likes that works more successfully. That's his job and his choreographer's job, not the job of judges or the audience. It's not just Max who has to deal with this, it's every performer. Think about how many people couldn't stand Juke versus how many love the Piano. Jason may have loved Juke - and I'm quite sure Rohene did - but most people didn't love him in it, and I think his PCS was held back because of it.

Great post, Tavi.

I would just add that I think Max's "team"--whoever that consists of--has likely failed him in figuring out what's kept him back and then helping him overcome those issues.

 

[chuckm]

Here are the GPF stats:

2007: 3-Lysacek, 4-Weir
2008: 1-Abbott, 3-Weir
2009: 1-Lysacek, 3-Weir, 4-Abbott
2011: 5-Abbott
2016: 2-Chen

 

[skylark]

I'm working on the post-GP Men report, including some key stats for the top 4, namely quad and 3A attempts. Nathan's quad stats made me think about the book I'm reading: "The ONE Thing: The Surprisingly Simple Truth Behind Extraordinary Results."

To totally keep the author from getting another sale, I'll tell you what this truth is "What's the ONE Thing you can do such that by doing it everything else will be easier or unnecessary?"

You didn't prevent a sale, but you may have saved me checking it out of the library. thanks.

I don't have all the stats on hand, but here's an interesting stat: Out of Nathan Chen's 26 quad attempts, he has rotated 25 of them. Yes, he could do better on the +GOE (that figure is much smaller, but I can't remember at the moment) and yes there is much desired in choreography, but Nathan's applying the principle I just stated above -- by at least rotating his quads, at minimum, he is at least racking up enough points to score big and when he hits them, like GPF, other stuff -- like PCS and spin/steps can quickly be forgiven.

If he just simply does the quads like he does GPF, he wins U.S. Nationals. No question. It's pure math.

None of the other U.S. men has this.

This goes exactly along with Nathan's most obvious quality: he's determined to pursue his #1 goal right now, even while he's very respectful and obliging with coaches, as Marina said earlier. I think he instinctively knows that it's the best way for him.

However, the The ONE Thing principle also applies to the other U.S. Men, if they choose to apply it.

Jason cannot rotate 26 quads. That's out of his control and no amount of consternation about the matter can change that. However, Jason continues to claw his way into the conversation because of his ONE thing -- which is to generally be a good competitor (NHK Trophy aside -- it was really the worse competition of his entire senior career. That 218 score he got, is actually the lowest he's ever received, by a whopping 10 points from his FIRST senior competition back in 2013.) and to max out the points through backloading, spins and steps, PCS bullets. I wouldn't say doing this would make the quad unecessary, but at least if he rotates it or attempts it, it keeps him easily in the top 10 in the world while he integrates that quad, i.e. he can likely get a spot on the World team/help get 3 spots).

I think Adam too has done the same as Jason -- his FS is backloaded with two 2 3As and he can max out the spins and steps -- but he does miss levels on spins and steps...which he can't really afford to do (neither can Jason).

In regard to Jason, this popped into my head as soon as you mentioned the book title. He's said that he won't let the rest of his skating go. He knows what his One Thing is and won't let go of it even while he's trying to integrate a new jump (or two).

Adam is an even more eloquent and relevant example, since it took him YEARS to finally figure out how best to implement his One Thing: quality and strategy; and that's only been in the last couple of years. Even so, he's discovered that at home, he trains the jumps and technique like crazy; and then he can allow himself to feel the emotions of the performance at comps and communicate with the audience (the last two are things which in my opinion Adam focuses on as part of the quality). At 27, Adam proves that it's never too late to figure it out and put it all together, while still being subject to the universal rule of figure skating: anyone can have a bad skate.

While I admire Max Aaron for wanting to improve his all-around skating, it's really clearly taken a dent on his jumps, which he really needs to be consistent in. I think he's starting to turn a corner, in the last few competitions, but he needs to just hit the quads and the jumps consistently and not worry about about his artistry beyond whether it enables him to get those big point getters.

:agree:

 

[TGee]

Dropping in an outside observer's thought...into an interesting strategic discussion...

What may be the "one thing" to be in the hunt internationally, may not be the "one thing" that a skater needs to place sufficiently at nationals, or impress the minds at the USFSA that make the decisions on 4CCs and Worlds.

We had an interesting discussion last week on the thread for the Canadian pre-nationals qualifier, Skate Canada Challenge regarding Novice and pre-novice women from Quebec. The consensus seemed to be that Quebec emphasizes pretty skating, and penalizes errors among young female skaters. So, we see them dominating the top 15 at Challenge at that level, but the top podium placements are from outside Quebec, and Québecoise skaters are not getting the triples that Skate Canada now feels necessary to be competitive internationally at the Junior and Senior level. So the "one thing" a female skater needs to qualify to get beyond Quebec is likely to leave her unable to meet the JPG minimums set by the national federation....OUCH.

And an interesting fact is that, up until recently, many of those Quebec girls were getting that polish from a very young age by competing intensely across the border in USFSA 6.0 type competitions...in which pretty and low risk skating is often valued over technical precision...

Nathan is interesting because he has set his eyes on the international prize and is daring USFSA not to value what he can do in the IJS reality.....But it is clear that he has been aware from a young age that ballet training and SS will be needed in the long run....

 

[skylark]

Props to both Adam and Jason for being able to keep their PERFORMANCES strong even when their jumps get away from them. Their commitment to their choreography and interpretation never fails to amaze me. Both of them have really sublime LPs. I find Adam's interpretation stronger, but that balances out with Jason's strengths in skating and transitions. But I think Adam's connection to his music and choreography is the best in the world. Sure, there's some "posing" but it honestly suits the music so welllll that it's brilliant. Let's not forget that all-time great Evgeni Plushenko had a lot of posing in his programs too, and it didn't mean he was a weak performer. But IMO, Adam's attention to detail is stronger; he doesn't rely on star power and charisma like Plushenko did.

Great post, Andromache. I'm not a fan of posing, whether the skater is named Medvedeva or Rippon, and I still prefer Adam's interpretation of Blackbird to this year's FS. But I prefer a metaphorical interpretation to a literal one, and again that's my personal taste. The second time I saw this year's FS, at TDF, I believe, I was swept into the performance and actually got a little teary-eyed. To me both last year's and this year's FS approach poetry, which I don't think I've said about any other skater. It's a different kind of connection than someone like, for instance, Javier's ... who I also adore.

And again, it's about what emotions speak to each of us. It's one of the reasons we can discuss these intangibles of figure skating, that it's subject to our own interpretation as well as the skater's.

 

[skylark]

That's true. Watching Nathan's GPF program-- those quads make the program. Bam, bam bam bam! The impact is felt because he landed every one of them and to the music. Polynesian Dances is a powerful piece of music and when you're hitting quads, one after another, it leaves an impression.

I think that was Ryan Bradley's point in his tweet yesterday -- That you can be in awe of all the quads yet appreciate the challenge of performing a program that has great choreographic impact. Adam's bird program, hits the right buttons -- It has the feel of The Shibs' "Fix You" FD last season. It feels slightly autobiographical and I think the audience connects to that. That's the authenticity I think sabinfire is referring to.

This is so true. It's surprising to me to feel the emotional impact of Nathan's quads on the program. I've always been thrilled by triple jumps and certain quads, such as in Javier's FS to Sinatra because they're so gorgeous, effortless, light and airy and because David Wilson is a genius in how he makes them part of the choreography and Javier feels that connection between choreo and jumps.

And Nathan has the knack of making the quads part of the musical mood. I think there are different ways of evaluating choreography: 1. by the number and variety of steps; 2. by musical interpretation expressed through upper body movement combined with the actual skate-to-ice movements; and 3. by becoming the power or mood of the music so totally, whether through jumps or other elements.

Maybe more ways, those 3 come to me right now. It's interesting that a lot of GS posters seem to value the first kind the most. I've never heard a commentator use the term "empty choreography," which here seems to mean fewer steps, turns, etc. The commentators and judges seem to value the other varieties of choreography too, which are more about transfer of emotion. Also, B.Esp. guy Simon or Chris I think mentioned recently that interpretation through upper body movement adds difficulty too ... something I haven't seen mentioned here.

 

[Mrs. P]

Dropping in an outside observer's thought...into an interesting strategic discussion...

What may be the "one thing" to be in the hunt internationally, may not be the "one thing" that a skater needs to place sufficiently at nationals, or impress the minds at the USFSA that make the decisions on 4CCs and Worlds.

We had an interesting discussion last week on the thread for the Canadian pre-nationals qualifier, Skate Canada Challenge regarding Novice and pre-novice women from Quebec. The consensus seemed to be that Quebec emphasizes pretty skating, and penalizes errors among young female skaters. So, we see them dominating the top 15 at Challenge at that level, but the top podium placements are from outside Quebec, and Québecoise skaters are not getting the triples that Skate Canada now feels necessary to be competitive internationally at the Junior and Senior level. So the "one thing" a female skater needs to qualify to get beyond Quebec is likely to leave her unable to meet the JPG minimums set by the national federation....OUCH.

And an interesting fact is that, up until recently, many of those Quebec girls were getting that polish from a very young age by competing intensely across the border in USFSA 6.0 type competitions...in which pretty and low risk skating is often valued over technical precision...

Nathan is interesting because he has set his eyes on the international prize and is daring USFSA not to value what he can do in the IJS reality.....But it is clear that he has been aware from a young age that ballet training and SS will be needed in the long run....

Yes, that is very much true in the U.S. The USFS always seem to reward all-around skaters, while "more technical skaters" get put by the wayside.

However, I do think even the "one thing" that matters in international competition and IJS is also changing. In the early days of IJS, underrotations and edge calls seem to less of an emphasis, until one day it suddenly became an issue. Mao Asada, IMO, was really hurt by this quick shift. When she was rising up the ranks as a junior and even in her early senior days (think first GP season where she beat all the Olympic medalists at GPF) she didn't get edge calls on her triple lutz. She even did a 3Z-3Lo combination. Then all of a sudden, around the 2007-2008 season, the technical panel started being more picky about edge calls and she started getting (e) and it was costing her major points. She's been working on revamping that lutz ever since.

I feel like with the men, the emphasis on the quad -- namely multiple ones -- really started to heat up just in the last season or two. To Nathan's credit, he made the shift quite quickly to compete in this new competitive landscape, but it's been harder on the rest of the U.S. men who were already having to play catchup. However, the IJS always seem to allow room for one who didn't have the technical ante to still be successful in the international scene. And that's to Jason Brown (and his team's) credit -- his entire career has been a game of technical catchup, but somehow in spite of this managed to work the IJS to gain modest success in juniors and seniors while working on those jumps. As I pointed out in other posts, he's outlasted and beat quite a few of his peers. That goes for Adam too.

 

[Jammers]

Watching Nathan in that LP yes it is a program to mostly get huge points on the technical side with the quads but he does listen to the music and perform and he really worked the footwork section. It's obvious that this kid is ambitous and he knows quads are what is going to get him noticed and guess what it did. I can see next year his LP being much more balanced and i hope he goes back to Marina for his LP for all the talk about her she has already given him a great SP and his skating skills have improved too. Now hopefully Raf and her have come to a understanding because with those two working with Nathan he will get nothing but better.

 

[karne]

Think about how many people couldn't stand Juke versus how many love the Piano. Jason may have loved Juke - and I'm quite sure Rohene did - but most people didn't love him in it, and I think his PCS was held back because of it.

*snort*

Oh, come on Tavi. That's just utterly ridiculous. Jason got 93 and change for Juke at 2015 US Nationals, no quad. Max was completely perfect with a 4-3 the next year and got 91. Yeah. But go ahead and tell me all about how much the USFS hated Juke so much.

(It was a horrible program. So was Max's Footloose. A lot of skaters have them. But I didn't see anyone saying that Jason needed to change who he was or start skating like some other person.)

What may be the "one thing" to be in the hunt internationally, may not be the "one thing" that a skater needs to place sufficiently at nationals, or impress the minds at the USFSA that make the decisions on 4CCs and Worlds.

Bingo. The writing has been on the wall for years that internationally, a skater needs multiple quads. Nationally? It was almost like the USFS freaked out when they realised Max had won a National title. Ewwwwwwww, we can't have a multi-quad skater winning titles!

So Max continued doing multi-quad frees and continued getting beaten up by the USFS for it, but he kept fighting it out, and now all of a sudden everyone is falling all over themselves for another skater who is being rewarded for all the things Max has spent the last four years getting criticised for. And you wonder why I'm finding this so hard to swallow.