2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[skylark]

However, I do think even the "one thing" that matters in international competition and IJS is also changing. In the early days of IJS, underrotations and edge calls seem to less of an emphasis, until one day it suddenly became an issue. Mao Asada, IMO, was really hurt by this quick shift.

This goes for Ashley and Mirai, too. Ashley's almost Mao's age and was learning her jump technique at the same time, though she didn't have the 3A. Mirai is a couple years younger but still learned her technique in those earlier days. She spoke in her 2016 TSL interview about why it's too easy for her to revert to old habits in competition, when she's nervous. Although she diligently works on new habits in training, it's so easy to fall back on her early training, when she was taught to land her jumps in competition, even if they weren't perfect. It seems logical to me that Ashley and Mao may have experienced the same thing.

So the ISU rule which was intended to teach younger figure skaters coming up to rotate at all costs, hurt the skaters who have chosen to keep competing. It's really a testament to them that they've continued to be in contention.

 

[Mrs. P]

*snort*

Oh, come on Tavi. That's just utterly ridiculous. Jason got 93 and change for Juke at 2015 US Nationals, no quad. Max was completely perfect with a 4-3 the next year and got 91. Yeah. But go ahead and tell me all about how much the USFS hated Juke so much.

(It was a horrible program. So was Max's Footloose. A lot of skaters have them. But I didn't see anyone saying that Jason needed to change who he was or start skating like some other person.)

Bingo. The writing has been on the wall for years that internationally, a skater needs multiple quads. Nationally? It was almost like the USFS freaked out when they realised Max had won a National title. Ewwwwwwww, we can't have a multi-quad skater winning titles!

So Max continued doing multi-quad frees and continued getting beaten up by the USFS for it, but he kept fighting it out, and now all of a sudden everyone is falling all over themselves for another skater who is being rewarded for all the things Max has spent the last four years getting criticised for. And you wonder why I'm finding this so hard to swallow.

For the record, I don't think Jason's PCS was affected that much by Juke. It wasn't a fan favorite program, but he still was solidly in the 39-40 PCS range with it, which at the time was pretty good for someone who was not named Javier Fernandez or Yuzuru Hanyu. And especially good considering he wasn't even attempting a quad at the the time.

Anyway, Max just needs to do what he can do. No about of consternation -- by him or by his fans on his behalf -- isn't going to help improve his scores.

Also, you can't acknowledge that what Nathan has done is far more than even Max has done? It's not that he just did a multi-quad free skate like Max is doing, it's that he landed five quads at GPF. That is more than any US man has done EVER.

Nathan isn't my favorite skater ever -- I've already said my piece about why this version of Nathan I'm not crazy about -- but think he deserves some credit .

Look, I get how much it bites that your favorite skater is being undervalued -- I felt that for years being a Shibutanis fan. For several seasons, there would be all the stuff about how they needed to quit, change partners, blah blah blah. And that's not mention just how much out of favor they fell with the judges and the dance politics scene after winning that sudden World bronze. But the Shibutanis fought back and look where they are now. Max would do well to take a page from their book.

 

[karne]

It's not that he just did a multi-quad free skate like Max is doing, it's that he landed five quads at GPF. That is more than any US man has done EVER.

But it's not what he was doing when everyone started falling all over themselves trying to crown him.

 

[Mrs. P]

But it's not what he was doing when everyone started falling all over themselves trying to crown him.

People were excited about a skater who wanted to try multiple quads -- I guess you call it crowning him. Maybe a few people were saying he was the future of figure skating. But even if they were "crowning him" as the savior of U.S. Men's figure skating, what consequence does it have in competition? Is Max Aaron reading Golden Skate and it's getting to him? Is USFS hatred of him getting to him and it's causing him to be less competitive?

 

[andromache]

*snort*

Oh, come on Tavi. That's just utterly ridiculous. Jason got 93 and change for Juke at 2015 US Nationals, no quad. Max was completely perfect with a 4-3 the next year and got 91. Yeah. But go ahead and tell me all about how much the USFS hated Juke so much.

(It was a horrible program. So was Max's Footloose. A lot of skaters have them. But I didn't see anyone saying that Jason needed to change who he was or start skating like some other person.)



Bingo. The writing has been on the wall for years that internationally, a skater needs multiple quads. Nationally? It was almost like the USFS freaked out when they realised Max had won a National title. Ewwwwwwww, we can't have a multi-quad skater winning titles!

So Max continued doing multi-quad frees and continued getting beaten up by the USFS for it, but he kept fighting it out, and now all of a sudden everyone is falling all over themselves for another skater who is being rewarded for all the things Max has spent the last four years getting criticised for. And you wonder why I'm finding this so hard to swallow.

There's more than one way to skin a cat (what an awful saying). Whether you agree with it or not, Max's artistry wasn't impressing international judges. He could've made them give him the marks by incorporating more technical content: different kinds of quads, hitting spin and step levels.

 

[TheGrandSophy]

Max's skating is not my cuppa tea. What he does in choreo feels forced and unnatural, often footwork feels slow and his upper body looks stiff. I, therefore, do not get excited by his skating even though he seems a very nice guy. If you add, missing his jumps and being sloppy with spins to that as has happened recently, there is little for me to enjoy. Obviously, his fans get more from him than that and that is great. However, if the judges genuinely are nearer my way of thinking than his greatest fans, surely it is not unfair to mark accordingly? Jason isn't my favourite at all, but I would always expect him to get higher PCS by quite a bit, unless he had a disaster, because his skating looks better, has more interesting transitions and the whole is more interpretative. Nathan also already moves better, IMO.

 

[andromache]

Max's skating is not my cuppa tea. What he does in choreo feels forced and unnatural, often footwork feels slow and his upper body looks stiff. I, therefore, do not get excited by his skating even though he seems a very nice guy. If you add, missing his jumps and being sloppy with spins to that as has happened recently, there is little for me to enjoy. Obviously, his fans get more from him than that and that is great. However, if the judges genuinely are nearer my way of thinking than his greatest fans, surely it is not unfair to mark accordingly? Jason isn't my favourite at all, but I would always expect him to get higher PCS by quite a bit, unless he had a disaster, because his skating looks better, has more interesting transitions and the whole is more interpretative. Nathan also already moves better, IMO.

I've seen the "Max is the best" argument enough to know where it goes from here. What about Kovtun, who is generally all-around worse than Max? Why did Kovtun get such high scores?

Answer: Kovtun's scores have nothing to do with USFS "throwing Max on the trash heap." That, plus Max was never CLEAR US NUMBER ONE the way Kovtun was. Russia put all their political capital behind Kovtun. US didn't put all their eggs in one Max basket, because there was a greater depth of talent beyond just Max. If Max was all the US had in terms of talented men, he could've gotten overblown PCS too.

 

[Mrs. P]

Just for the sake of cognitive dissonance and to balance out the discussion a bit -- one positive aspect about Max is that he is generally well-trained and able to take advantage if the favorites falter. That is why he won Skate America last season over Shoma and Jason. It also helped he did two clean programs. We've seen a generally clean FS, but we need to see the SP clean as well, this season.

And I repeat that I admire his willingness to improve his overall skating quality. And he has managed to be on the podium (4th or higher) every year since he won his U.S. Championship in 2013, which means he's been on the podium four out of the five years he's been a senior. No other U.S. man currently competing can say that (Adam, 3; Ross 3; Jason 2; Grant 1; Nathan 1).

 

[Tavi...]

*snort*

Oh, come on Tavi. That's just utterly ridiculous. Jason got 93 and change for Juke at 2015 US Nationals, no quad. Max was completely perfect with a 4-3 the next year and got 91. Yeah. But go ahead and tell me all about how much the USFS hated Juke so much.

(It was a horrible program. So was Max's Footloose. A lot of skaters have them. But I didn't see anyone saying that Jason needed to change who he was or start skating like some other person.)



Bingo. The writing has been on the wall for years that internationally, a skater needs multiple quads. Nationally? It was almost like the USFS freaked out when they realised Max had won a National title. Ewwwwwwww, we can't have a multi-quad skater winning titles!

So Max continued doing multi-quad frees and continued getting beaten up by the USFS for it, but he kept fighting it out, and now all of a sudden everyone is falling all over themselves for another skater who is being rewarded for all the things Max has spent the last four years getting criticised for. And you wonder why I'm finding this so hard to swallow.

I'm apologize, I wasn't clear. I was referring to international judges, which I guess was a bit of a non sequitir because you were discussing judging at US Nats. I'm sorry Max didn't win last year. I agree with you that US judges didn't hold back on PCS with Juke. What I meant for example was Worlds 2015, where Jason got PCS of 40.14, about the same as Kovtun and Voronov. He got similar PCS at his other comps that season, and people repeatedly called the program cheesy.

As to Max and Nathan: Forgive me, but you keep putting this into a narrative where Max is not appreciated enough by USFS, that it's unfair, that he can never do anything right, that no matter what he does, USFS is gonna give its love to someone else, eg Nathan. I don't think that's what's going on here; rather, there's a fundamental structural change in the idea of what figure skating is supposed to be. In the past year, Nathan, Boyang, and Shoma have pushed the envelope technically very, very hard, in a way no one else has; essentially, they have forced the conversation away from "how should we balance TES/PCS?" to "how high can I get my TES?" Nathan is not just attempting 6-7 quads in a competition, he's including both a 4Z and a 4F in the same program. No one was competing either of those jumps regularly until last year. It's the sheer volume /difficulty of what he's doing - and his fearlessness - that sets him apart from pretty much everyone, including Max. The truth is that if he stays healthy and continues to improve, it may be difficult for any of the US guys to beat him, whether they rely more heavily on TES or PCS. That's why anyone hoping to beat him at some point is gonna have to hone their strengths - in Max's case his jumps, in Jason's his presentation and spins - as well as improve their weaknesses.

ETA Andromache yikes I agree, that expression!

Mrs P, I agree with you that 40 PCS wasn't bad 2years ago, except that both Kovtun and Voronov got identical PCS - Jason was clean with good GOE on his 3A, Kovtun did a quad combo then popped two jumps, and Voronov did a sloppy combo. Quad factor, I guess.

 

[Mrs. P]

I'm apologize, I wasn't clear. I was referring to international judges, which I guess was a bit of a non sequitir because you were discussing judging at US Nats. I'm sorry Max didn't win last year. I agree with you that US judges didn't hold back on PCS with Juke. What I meant for example was Worlds 2015, where Jason got PCS of 40.14, about the same as Kovtun and Voronov. He got similar PCS at his other comps that season, and people repeatedly called the program cheesy.

Again, I don't think 40.14 was bad relative to the other guys. Kovtun and Voronov were both coming off pretty decent seasons -- both made the GPF (and Voronov medaled) and both medaled at Europeans. Meanwhile Jason finished 6th at 4CC and missed the GPF. And in hindsight, that's a moot point, cause Jason's passed both of them by a whole lot in PCS since then.

 

[Tavi...]

Again, I don't think 40.14 was bad relative to the other guys. Kovtun and Voronov were both coming off pretty decent seasons -- both made the GPF (and Voronov medaled) and both medaled at Europeans. Meanwhile Jason finished 6th at 4CC and missed the GPF. And in hindsight, that's a moot point, cause Jason's passed both of them by a whole lot in PCS since then.

Ha ha I edited my post above. You make valid points. But you know as a Jason fan I'm always gonna think his PCS should be higher.

 

[karne]

US didn't put all their eggs in one Max basket, because there was a greater depth of talent beyond just Max.

No, that would have been stupid of them. But they don't spread the eggs evenly. Max has maybe one or two eggs in his basket, but Jason and Adam and Nathan have baskets full to overflowing. Jason is of course the best pure skater in the US and that is deserved, and Nathan's tech content kind of steals eggs anyway.

[rest of post deleted because you know what? never freaking mind. tl;dr: nice guy finishes last.]

 

[ice coverage]

Trying to stay out of the fray, but a few brief responses:

... ... But you know as a Jason fan I'm always gonna think his PCS should be higher.

Understood ... and it should be equally understandable :yes: that Max's fans always think that his PCS should be higher.

Max's skating is not my cuppa tea. ... Obviously, his fans get more from him than that and that is great. ...

I am one who does get a lot of excitement and enjoyment from watching Max.

I am a fan of Jason and Adam as well -- and to echo (in the broadest sense) what my fellow fans of Jason and Adam often say about them:
Whether Max makes the podium or not; or whether every spin of his is Level 4 or not; etc.; etc. ... I always enjoy watching Max :yay:.

... And I repeat that I admire his willingness to improve his overall skating quality. And he has managed to be on the podium (4th or higher) every year since he won his U.S. Championship in 2013, which means he's been on the podium four out of the five years he's been a senior. No other U.S. man currently competing can say that (Adam, 3; Ross 3; Jason 2; Grant 1; Nathan 1).

Thanks, Mrs. P. I will be cheering for Max to continue his U.S. podium streak next month.

---

On a completely different note, for anyone like me who never can get enough of the endearing smiles of our U.S. men:

Noticed today that the 2017 Nats site has some more #GetUp video that I hadn't seen elsewhere.

http://www.2017usfigureskatingchampionships.com/get-up-kc/​

It's just a background montage, but I like the clapperboard effect with Max at the beginning.
Plus the shots of Adam and Jason are very nice as well.
(Madi Chock, Ashley W, Evan Bates, and Gracie ain't too shabby either.)

 

[Tavi...]

Trying to stay out of the fray, but a few brief responses:



Understood ... and it should be equally understandable :yes: that Max's fans always think that his PCS should be higher.



I am one who does get a lot of excitement and enjoyment from watching Max.

I am a fan of Jason and Adam as well -- and to echo (in the broadest sense) what my fellow fans of Jason and Adam often say about them:
Whether Max makes the podium or not; or whether every spin of his is Level 4 or not; etc.; etc. ... I always enjoy watching Max :yay:.



Thanks, Mrs. P. I will be cheering for Max to continue his U.S. podium streak next month.

---

On a completely different note, for anyone like me who never can get enough of the endearing smiles of our U.S. men:

Noticed today that the 2017 Nats site has some more #GetUp video that I hadn't seen elsewhere.

http://www.2017usfigureskatingchampionships.com/get-up-kc/​

It's just a background montage, but I like the clapperboard effect with Max at the beginning.
Plus the shots of Adam and Jason are very nice as well.
(Madi Chock, Ashley W, Evan Bates, and Gracie ain't too shabby either.)

Sorry, I never meant to imply that Max's fans - and I count myself as one - were wrong to think he should have higher PCS.

 

[el henry]

I tried, I tried to stay away, but I gotta say it for the 58th time in the 13th thread.....

I *liked*, I really really really really liked Juke. :sad21::sad21::sad21: And the Nats PCS was deserved

Ok, you knew I had to say it, carry on.....

(Semi-funny off topic, I felt like Jackie Wong and Feelin Good #FigureSkaterProblems the other night. I was watching Fringe, a 10 year old?? sci fi show I've not watched before, and like all newish shows they have this horrible habit of playing some pop tune full blast at the start of various scenes. In one episode the tune they were playing was ... Juke. Have no idea what the Bishops and Olivia were doing, cause all I could see was Jason

 

[Selene]

Nathan's performance last weekend was very exciting. The US finally has a skater who has the technical compete with the top men in the world. I just hope he is able to avoid the injury issues that have plagued him in the past.

 

[ice coverage]

I forgot to say earlier that I liked Nathan's answer to the question about quad axels in the post-FS presser in Marseilles.

He started by saying in a very good-natured way that [at this point] he just wants to get his triple axel consistent (I'm paraphrasing).
He included a mention of seeing Max do "it" [ETA: quad axel] on harness. So if some members of the international press were not already aware of Max's work in progress, they heard about it from Nathan .
[Not that it matters, but Nathan did not use the word "video," so I think it's possible that he even saw Max in person at the World Arena working with the harness. ETA: And using the pronoun "it" (as opposed to saying "one") kinda implies to me that Nathan maybe(??) saw more than one??]

The question -- posed to all three medalists -- was the last one of the presser. Approx. 3:30 from the end of the video.

https://www.facebook.com/isufigureskating/videos/vb.255007411190874/1349356061755998/?type=3&thea​

Part of Nathan's reply is in this IN article too:

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2016/12/10/210960230 (Dec 10)​

[But the quoting is not verbatim. In the video, he clearly says "it" in reference to Max.]

---

Sorry, I never meant to imply that Max's fans - and I count myself as one - were wrong to think he should have higher PCS.

Thanks, Tavi.

ETA:

Although I quoted your post -- b/c it was a good peg for my thought -- my intention mostly was to make a general point (for everyone's consumption, not just yours) that it is natural for a fan of any skater to hope for the most favorable scoring for the skater.
I think I'm sorta stating the obvious, but I sometimes wonder whether some others (not you) forget that it is not irrational to wish for Max to receive better scores than he does.​

 

[Icey]

Trying to impose an unnatural and/or conventional type artistry on a skater like Max is misguided. Dealing with it has resulted in some diminishment of his technical skills imo. I will be interested to see if his team realizes this to some degree in the choreo of his new short. Imo the same thing happened to Goebel when he went to Carroll.


Exaggeration to make a point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGjIW6XQnKo

 

[Tavi...]

Well, all I can say is that I'm really looking forward to US nationals and hope all our guys do well. It will be interesting to see what changes they make between now and then. I'm sure Nathan will work on presentation now that his jumps are essentially clean. We know Max has a new program and is probably adding a 4T to both programs. I think Adam has said the 4Z will be back. But there's been radio silence from Jason since the disaster that was NHK. Can he show us that was a fluke - and that the quad at SA was not a fluke? Will he risk adding a 4S (I'm guessing not but what do I know). Will we see reports of 40 clean programs again? And how will Jordan do?

Still seems a long way off, but it's only about a month.

 

[Mrs. P]

To be precise, practices start 5 weeks from tomorrow , Jan. 18. Conference calls from the top men will occur likely the week after New Year's. Guessing they'll do calls with Nathan, Adam, Max and Jason. So we should be hearing updates relatively soon.