2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[karne]

Bummed about Jason's stress fracture. But the positive is that he's still upbeat about it. It would be easy, after such an injury-free run for so many years, to let the back strain and the stress fracture get him down, but he's always so positive.

 

[Tavi...]

I think with Jason, while a stress fracture isn't ideal, it wasn't like he was off the ice for months and trying to rebuild his stamina like he did with his back injury last year.

He does have a little wiggle room with Adam's W/D. He still has a realistic shot at getting 4CC if not Worlds.

I worry: if the poor performances at NHK resulted from the stress fracture, how much better is he now? The stress fracture is in his landing leg, and if you recall NHK, not only were his jumps lacking in height and power, but he kept falling out of landings.

I'm also worried about our chances for 3 spots at the Olympics.

 

[skylark]

Not after they skated. Before. When their names were announced.

I can understand the huge roar of cheers in Boston for him; I felt the same way. I was hardly aware of Adam before his 2015 National FS, when he finally conquered some demons and skated to his potential. I was jumping up and down and screaming after it. Then my excitement and my self-identification as a Rippon Fan built and developed over the 2015-16 season. Because of the way he skates, I anticipated another enjoyable experience.

Adam's FS at 2015 Nationals was a huge, brilliant turning point in his skating journey. Maybe over time it gave him the strength to calm down his feelings a bit and control his reactions. Other fans may be more forgiving of a "roll-eyes" moment than you are. Just as someone (or more than one) judged Max for something they perceived in his "attitude" once upon a time, you seem to be still judging Adam by an undisciplined few seconds two years ago.

 

[Mrs. P]

I worry: if the poor performances at NHK resulted from the stress fracture, how much better is he now? The stress fracture is in his landing leg, and if you recall NHK, not only were his jumps lacking in height and power, but he kept falling out of landings.

I'm also worried about our chances for 3 spots at the Olympics.

Athletes work through injuries all the time, especially runners, who often deal with stress fractures. Of course FS is a whole different ball of wax, but if Jason is recovered enough, I still think he can place high enough to get 4CC.

Anyway, really not a lot of time to worry, got to work with what you got.

 

[karne]

I'm also worried about our chances for 3 spots at the Olympics.

You make it sound like Jason is the only one who could possibly help get them back. :sarcasm:

Other fans may be more forgiving of a "roll-eyes" moment than you are. Just as someone (or more than one) judged Max for something they perceived in his "attitude" once upon a time, you seem to be still judging Adam by an undisciplined few seconds two years ago.

A few undisciplined seconds? If it was just the roll-eyes, sure. But he then went on a spree of retweeting catty comments about Jason's win and then, a little later, when Max was announced for WTT, went on another spree of retweeting negative comments about Max. And Max's reaction on Twitter (and Ricky's reply) made it quite clear he was hurt by that.

 

[beki]

I'm also worried about our chances for 3 spots at the Olympics.

I don't know if this sounds simplistic or harsh, but I feel if we don't earn the spots we don't deserve them. Or, to put it differently, other countries' good showings would demonstrate they need the spots more. Of course, if our men are injured, the assessment won't be completely accurate, but there's really no way around that.

 

[karne]

I don't know if this sounds simplistic or harsh, but I feel if we don't earn the spots we don't deserve them. Or, to put it differently, other countries' good showings would demonstrate they need the spots more. Of course, if our men are injured, the assessment won't be completely accurate, but there's really no way around that.

I disagree with that as a simplistic view. The US men didn't "earn" the three spots at 2016 Worlds, but all three men skated out of their skins in the FS and all finished in the top 10. I think a lot of people would argue that they deserved to keep the three spots. On the other hand, there was at least one other country who kept or increased spots where the performances of their skaters didn't necessarily "deserve" it.

 

[skylark]

I worry: if the poor performances at NHK resulted from the stress fracture, how much better is he now? The stress fracture is in his landing leg, and if you recall NHK, not only were his jumps lacking in height and power, but he kept falling out of landings.

I'm also worried about our chances for 3 spots at the Olympics.

OMG you're right. I hadn't got past my shock and sadness to think about that. Jason has the most credibility with international judges, but if he doesn't do his quad at nationals, that complicates things. Well, if it does come to pass that he's not at Worlds, and it's hopefully Nathan and Max, hopefully it will give them both an extra boost in motivation to win those 3 spots.

I do love the Golf Ball, with Dimples, analogy.

 

[skylark]

A few undisciplined seconds? If it was just the roll-eyes, sure. But he then went on a spree of retweeting catty comments about Jason's win and then, a little later, when Max was announced for WTT, went on another spree of retweeting negative comments about Max. And Max's reaction on Twitter (and Ricky's reply) made it quite clear he was hurt by that.

A tweet or a re-tweet may only take a few seconds too; and many people do or say things in the heat of disappointment that they regret a day or two later. Adam may have apologized or tried to make amends. But of course, you're entitled to your feelings. I'm happy that Max has forgiven him, as he showed with his reaction to Adam's skate at Worlds and their continued friendship.

 

[Tavi...]

I disagree with that as a simplistic view. The US men didn't "earn" the three spots at 2016 Worlds, but all three men skated out of their skins in the FS and all finished in the top 10. I think a lot of people would argue that they deserved to keep the three spots. On the other hand, there was at least one other country who kept or increased spots where the performances of their skaters didn't necessarily "deserve" it.

And that's really the issue in keeping or gaining spots - it's not only how well you do, but how much the judges are willing to reward it.

Regarding your other point, at NHK Jason scored 50 points less than he did at SA, and there's no telling where he is on that continuum right now. Max has been nowhere near his personal best this year, and we don't yet know where he's at, either. It's unclear how high either one of them (or Nathan, for that matter) might place right now.

 

[Mrs. P]

And that's really the issue in keeping or gaining spots - it's not only how well you do, but how much the judges are willing to reward it.

Regarding your other point, at NHK Jason scored 50 points less than he did at SA, and there's no telling where he is on that continuum right now. Max has been nowhere near his personal best this year, and we don't yet know where he's at, either. It's unclear how high either one of them (or Nathan, for that matter) might place right now.

According to Lynn Rutherford's tweets:

https://twitter.com/lynnrutherford

.@jasonbskates told reporters he will compete at #USChamps17 despite being at about 80%, due to stress fracture in his right fibula. 1/2

More @jasonbskates: "I'm doing the best I can to show this is where I am & I'm fighting hard for one of the 2 (world) spots" #USChamps17 2/2

The question is whether 80 percent is enough to hold the competition. Na Hyun Kim did it at Korean Nationals with an ankle injury, we'll see if Jason can do the same.

We'll have a better idea by early next week when practices start.

 

[karne]

Jason can probably hold enough people at 80% to end up on the podium, but he can't hold Max and Nathan. He'll need to be more than 80% to hold those two.

 

[musicfan80]

Jason can probably hold enough people at 80% to end up on the podium, but he can't hold Max and Nathan. He'll need to be more than 80% to hold those two.

Especially if Nathan and Max are clean and land their quads. Remember, Nathan and Max are going to be starting off at attempting a much higher TES base. PCS, even if Jason got all 10s, would only help him so much. The judges would have to lowball Nathan and Max's PCS scores by a bit to make up the difference.

 

[mrrice]

Especially if Nathan and Max are clean and land their quads. Remember, Nathan and Max are going to be starting off at attempting a much higher TES base. PCS, even if Jason got all 10s, would only help him so much. The judges would have to lowball Nathan and Max's PCS scores by a bit to make up the difference.

I hope the judges don't dare to lowball any skater. Here's how I'm feeling about the Men. With the emergence (at least to me) of Mikhail KOLYADA. It adds another skater who is as strong as Jason from a PCS stand point. With Yuzu, Javi, and Patrick all being capable of big numbers in both columns. We need Big Jumpers who are capable of consistent quads. With Adam out, Nathan is the hottest skater on the radar when it comes to the US Men. I love Jason because he's not a head case and when healthy, has always been solid. The big question will be his health. We only have 2 spots for the Men this year and we need big jumpers if we're going to get that 3rd spot back. That's why I think Max needs be there.

 

[karne]

I hope the judges don't dare to lowball any skater. Here's how I'm feeling about the Men. With the emergence (at least to me) of Mikhail KOLYADA. It adds another skater who is as strong as Jason from a PCS stand point. With Yuzu, Javi, and Patrick all being capable of big numbers in both columns. We need Big Jumpers who capable of consistent quads. With Adam out, Nathan is the hottest skater on the radar when it comes to the US Men. I love Jason because he's not head case and when healthy, has always been solid. The big question will be his health. We only have 2 spots for the Men this year and we need big jumpers if we're going to get that 3rd spot back. That's why I think Max needs be there.

I like Kolyada too, mrrice, but I wouldn't put him in the same bracket as Jason. Not even remotely close.

The difference will be between what everyone is capable of and what they actually do. Otherwise Yuzuru Hanyu would be the World Champion. But he's not. Ice is slippery. And that applies to US Nationals too. Yes, Chen has achieved some good things this season. That doesn't mean he's a lock to win in Kansas City.

Unless something bizarro happens, I think the 4CC team is pretty well set now. The only question mark is what order they finish in and which two go to Worlds.

 

[Tavi...]

According to Lynn Rutherford's tweets:

https://twitter.com/lynnrutherford




The question is whether 80 percent is enough to hold the competition. Na Hyun Kim did it at Korean Nationals with an ankle injury, we'll see if Jason can do the same.

We'll have a better idea by early next week when practices start.

Yes. I saw those. I guess I wonder what "80%" means. If it means he can only do 80% of what he normally does, what is missing? That's his landing foot, but also his picking foot for lutz and flip. Will he be able to do them at all? Will his landings be wonky like at NHK? As you said, we'll have a better idea at practice.

 

[Heleng]

Yes. I saw those. I guess I wonder what "80%" means. If it means he can only do 80% of what he normally does, what is missing? That's his landing foot, but also his picking foot for lutz and flip. Will he be able to do them at all? Will his landings be wonky like at NHK? As you said, we'll have a better idea at practice.

Based on personal experience (my son had multiple foot and leg stress fractures as a high school and college runner), stress fractures generally take a minimum of six weeks to heal. With the onset of injury being mid-Dec, it sounds like 80% may refer to how close his foot is to being healed. I so admire Jason's perseverance and positive attitude in working through this unfortunate injury. I'm sure it's quite a balancing act to try to continue to train and improve or even maintain fitness and skill levels without further aggravating the injury. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for him to do well at Nationals and make the World team!

 

[Mrs. P]

Based on personal experience (my son had multiple foot and leg stress fractures as a high school and college runner), stress fractures generally take a minimum of six weeks to heal. With the onset of injury being mid-Dec, it sounds like 80% may refer to how close his foot is to being healed. I so admire Jason's perseverance and positive attitude in working through this unfortunate injury. I'm sure it's quite a balancing act to try to continue to train and improve or even maintain fitness and skill levels without further aggravating the injury. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for him to do well at Nationals and make the World team!

I was thinking of runners when I think of stress fractures, you have to be super careful not to aggravate the injury, but I think they are manageable.

I think a lot of it is mental too. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy if you allow the injury to creep in your brain. So this approach Jason is taking is a good one.

Fwiw, he was diagnosed in Dec, but the injury likely was there at NHK in late Nov. so perhaps he is close to brain for healed at this point.

 

[SnowWhite]

Yes. I saw those. I guess I wonder what "80%" means. If it means he can only do 80% of what he normally does, what is missing? That's his landing foot, but also his picking foot for lutz and flip. Will he be able to do them at all? Will his landings be wonky like at NHK? As you said, we'll have a better idea at practice.

IIRC, he clarified on his call that he meant he has 80% of his normal strength in the leg and he said that it's possible that it will be 100% by the time he competes, but he isn't sure.

 

[Tavi...]

IIRC, he clarified on his call that he meant he has 80% of his normal strength in the leg and he said that it's possible that it will be 100% by the time he competes, but he isn't sure.

Yes, that's what the NBC article said - thanks for clarifying it here!