2016-17 State of Russian Ladies skating

[Manitou]

I have seen many Russian posters discuss the political advantage of CSKA skaters. They would know more than I would. It frequently comes up in discussions of Anna's low PCS scores.

Also, you might not know this, but sometimes whoever the federation prefers will score better internationally. Because the federation does not prefer Anna (as she is not from CSKA) the judges are not giving her very high scores.

I guess you know as much about the internal ISU politics as I do, but it it doesn't seem to hurt the forum to spread fake news without any backing. Sorry, the backing is: "someone said". And then running with it. I can see a lot of it recently everywhere.
Anyway, I don't think Evgenia needs any "political pull". She is doing excellent with or without it...

 

[Seruleane]

Also, isn't it interesting how Sotskova cracked under pressure?

I really hope Radionova stops being the prettiest girl in the room and gets her s... together. She has an actual chance to make the world team.

Haven't watched Europeans so not sure how Sotskova skated. But...yes, I would love to see Radionova back in top form. If she has to miss Worlds this year for that to happen, then so be it. She is so charismatic (the only skater in recent times to remind me of Oksana Baiul), it would be a shame if she didn't make the Olympic team next year.

 

[Manitou]

Haven't watched Europeans so not sure how Sotskova skated. But...yes, I would love to see Radionova back in top form. If she has to miss Worlds this year for that to happen, then so be it. She is so charismatic (the only skater in recent times to remind me of Oksana Baiul), it would be a shame if she didn't make the Olympic team next year.

I wish Elena were back too.
I really don't mind Sotskova, she is OK. When she skates I really want to focus and watch it, ... but then somehow I cannot help yawning and fast forwarding. Just can't help. Maybe when she grows she will be more captivating. She has the potential..

 

[FlattFan]

Congrats on Anna's silver. She has proven again and again that she is becoming a FIERCE competitor, saving those jumps with catlike grace. Her poise, sophistication, and commitment to the music were unmatched by all but Carolina and Laurine :luv17: Big gorgeous jumps and incredible speed. It's just sad that Anna Tsareva apparently doesn't have enough political pull to get Anna the scores and results she deserves.

Eh, her jumps are ok. She does not have straight picking leg. Her posture for the jumps is always crunched up. She has good speed. That's about it.
She's a very fierce competitor though. You can see she's hungry.

Anna has a reputation. If she falls apart, it's spectacularly bad, too. So her PCS actually reflect her performances. Unlike most of the girls.

 

[andromache]

I guess you know as much about the internal ISU politics as I do, but it it doesn't seem to hurt the forum to spread fake news without any backing. Sorry, the backing is: "someone said". And then running with it. I can see a lot of it recently everywhere.
Anyway, I don't think Evgenia needs any "political pull". She is doing excellent with or without it...

Russian posters like Sugarpova have discussed the CSKA bias. It's not "fake news," nor would be saying "Frank Carroll's American skaters receive more USFS backing than American skaters from this nobody coach."

CSKA is TAT's place and TAT has a lot of influence.

FYI, Eteri is not a CSKA coach.

 

[Manitou]

FYI, Eteri is not a CSKA coach.

You mentioned CSKA. I mentioned nothing.

 

[andromache]

You mentioned CSKA. I mentioned nothing.

You mentioned Evgenia and I did not.

 

[silverfoxes]

I have seen many Russian posters discuss the political advantage of CSKA skaters. They would know more than I would. It frequently comes up in discussions of Anna's low PCS scores.

Also, you might not know this, but sometimes whoever the federation prefers will score better internationally. Because the federation does not prefer Anna (as she is not from CSKA) the judges are not giving her very high scores.

Evgenia is not from CSKA, either. I think it's true Buyanova has the most politicking power, but I doubt that Inna Goncharenko or Sokolovskaya have the same kind of power. Anna's coaching team doesn't have the status of Buyanova, Tutberidze or even Mishin. Maybe as their team grows, so will Tsareva's reputation, but I doubt if it will happen soon enough to benefit Anna. Anyway, I can't see Anna changing coaches now just for some perceived political benefit, especially since her hard work does pay its own dividends - look how much better she is doing this season already. Maybe her scores should be higher, but they're higher than nearly all the rest of the field as it is.

 

[Tolstoj]

Also, isn't it interesting how Sotskova cracked under pressure?

I really hope Radionova stops being the prettiest girl in the room and gets her s... together. She has an actual chance to make the world team.

Yes i'm still thinking this is an amazing opportunity for Elena to evaluate what has to be changed in her skating, because she has still some elements that were great with the previous body but now they're just messy (the spins in particular), so she has to fine this but also working on something really special for her programs like Julia's SL.

 

[gravy]

Tarasova has made it clear in her commentary that certain skaters often have internal advantages in domestic competitions (not necessarily CSKA). Just this past Nationals, she said that Kovtun would've received a much higher score for what he put out there in years past for the same program. He left Buianova for Radionova's coach (who's also at CSKA, mind you) and bloop, he's dumped at Nationals. Buianova has also coached a string of controversial winners/medalists at Nationals, most notably Sotnikova right before the Olympics when it was clear that Lipnitskaya was the more internationally favored skater and then Sotskova this past Nationals when Pogorilaya is clearly better appreciated internationally.

 

[Mathman]

Russian posters like Sugarpova have discussed the CSKA bias. It's not "fake news," nor would be saying "Frank Carroll's American skaters receive more USFS backing than American skaters from this nobody coach."

I don't know anything about the politics of the ISU. But at the lower levels, I think it works something like this.

The well-known coach hobnobs with the officials and judges and says, "Say, I've got a nice girl coming up in the intermediate competition. She's worth a look."

So the judges give her a look (whereas otherwise she might have been overlooked) and she gets third instead of eighth.

I don't know about the senior championship level, though.

 

[Manitou]

I don't know anything about the politics of the ISU. But at the lower levels, I think it works something like this.

The well-known coach hobnobs with the officials and judges and says, "Say, I've got a nice girl coming up in the intermediate competition. She's worth a look."

So the judges give her a look (whereas otherwise she might have been overlooked) and she gets third instead of eighth.

I don't know about the senior championship level, though.

Obviously this is happening everywhere in every federation of every sport in every country. That's the way the things are.
Probably I misinterpreted Andromache's post in the context of the last Olympics, when many people on this forum personally saw Putin handing over money sacks with "$" signs on them to the judges. I am kind of oversensitive when people here start talking about "evil" Russian politics...
Other than that it's all OK. Obviously big clubs and big names have always higher reputation and influence. It's normal. Anna doesn't seem to be suffering by this, though. She is doing great...

 

[andromache]

Obviously this is happening everywhere in every federation of every sport in every country. That's the way the things are.
Probably I misinterpreted Andromache's post in the context of the last Olympics, when many people on this forum personally saw Putin handing over money sacks with "$" signs on them to the judges. I am kind of oversensitive when people here start talking about "evil" Russian politics...
Other than that it's all OK. Obviously big clubs and big names have always higher reputation and influence. It's normal. Anna doesn't seem to be suffering by this, though. She is doing great...

I was talking about skating politics, not regular politics. Putin is not involved.

 

[Manitou]

Putin is not involved.

Not yet!

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I don't know anything about the politics of the ISU. But at the lower levels, I think it works something like this.

The well-known coach hobnobs with the officials and judges and says, "Say, I've got a nice girl coming up in the intermediate competition. She's worth a look."

So the judges give her a look (whereas otherwise she might have been overlooked) and she gets third instead of eighth.

I don't know about the senior championship level, though.

I'm sure these conversations happen at all levels, not only between coaches and judges, but also among the judges. A US judge sent out an email to others "pointing out" the lack of transitions in Plushenko's programs, which upset a lot of people. But these conversations need to be had because a lot of times when lesser known skaters have good programs, their positive qualities aren't necessarily recognized without someone pointing them out. The drawback is, of course, if the skater doesn't have advocates their scores will suffer. I always though Mao's team did a poor job lobbying for her. When she and Yuna were at their peak, Yuna typically beat Mao by a good margin on PCS. This is fine, because both had great qualities, but Mao should have at least been ahead on TR every time when she skated well, and I don't think she ever was when she lost overall PCS to Yuna.

 

[Tolstoj]

Evgenia is not from CSKA, either. I think it's true Buyanova has the most politicking power, but I doubt that Inna Goncharenko or Sokolovskaya have the same kind of power. Anna's coaching team doesn't have the status of Buyanova, Tutberidze or even Mishin. Maybe as their team grows, so will Tsareva's reputation, but I doubt if it will happen soon enough to benefit Anna. Anyway, I can't see Anna changing coaches now just for some perceived political benefit, especially since her hard work does pay its own dividends - look how much better she is doing this season already. Maybe her scores should be higher, but they're higher than nearly all the rest of the field as it is.

Meh, look at how much they pushed Samarin at Nationals. (even though Dima was the one who won JGPF)

To me that is true. CSKA's skaters are usually pushed (Buyanova is the "most supported"), but i think also the Federation put trust on some coaches who knows they can produce great skaters at the international stage: for example they trust Eteri with the ladies now (while few years ago i remember some of her skaters including Lipnitskaia and Medvedeva being underscored at nationals), and i think now they're trying to support Chebotareva as well (looking Konstantinova and Kolyada's scores)

It depends from case to case, but yes in general, CSKA's skaters are helped just like every Frank Carroll's student in the US for example.

Pogorilaya though i think it's different because even internationally judges are not supporting her as much as other top skaters, (Miyahara for instance) i don't know why honestly.

 

[Lana05]

Sorry, but I don't see any political push of CSKA. Maria was chosen right for euro, it is big experience for her, Elena is for Ubiveriade, because Sotskova cant participate there + Tuk +Leonova. Samarin was quite stable during this season and had no falls at RN, he will be too old for JGP so he needs some Senior experience before full senior year. Aliev can be Junior and Senior next season.

 

[silverfoxes]

Meh, look at how much they pushed Samarin at Nationals. (even though Dima was the one who won JGPF)

To me that is true. CSKA's skaters are usually pushed (Buyanova is the "most supported"), but i think also the Federation put trust on some coaches who knows they can produce great skaters at the international stage: for example they trust Eteri with the ladies now (while few years ago i remember some of her skaters including Lipnitskaia and Medvedeva being underscored at nationals), and i think now they're trying to support Chebotareva as well (looking Konstantinova and Kolyada's scores)

It depends from case to case, but yes in general, CSKA's skaters are helped just like every Frank Carroll's student in the US for example.

Pogorilaya though i think it's different because even internationally judges are not supporting her as much as other top skaters, (Miyahara for instance) i don't know why honestly.

Did you actually watch the men's competition? I prefer Aliev over Samarin any day but he made serious errors - popped a quad in the SP for one thing. For sure Samarin did not medal because he was "held up" over Aliev. And skating for CSKA hardly helped Voronov, who was underscored in the SP (and arguably on the Grand Prix as well), and penalized heavily for his errors in the LP. Did Elena benefit from CSKA favoritism this season? Sorry, I don't believe it's as simple as that.

 

[Tolstoj]

Did you actually watch the men's competition? I prefer Aliev over Samarin any day but he made serious errors - popped a quad in the SP for one thing. For sure Samarin did not medal because he was "held up" over Aliev. And skating for CSKA hardly helped Voronov, who was underscored in the SP (and arguably on the Grand Prix as well), and penalized heavily for his errors in the LP. Did Elena benefit from CSKA favoritism this season? Sorry, I don't believe it's as simple as that.

PCS are just gifts from the federation at Nationals: yes i saw the men's FS and Samarin landed the jumps but artistically he was way worse than even Kovtun.

It depends from case to case as i said before, this year they have decided to support Kolyada, that's why they gave him the opportunity to shine at the Rostelecom Cup without any credible competition for that bronze medal (no one thought Bychenko was that good), in fact they made two very big mistakes sending both Kovtun and Voronov at Skate America and Cup of China. Then at Nationals, Voronov wasn't pushed at all because now CSKA has Kovtun and Samarin, so there wasn't a free spot for Voronov.

Sotskova was pushed at Nationals (some uncalled underrotations in her free skate), Pogo has proved all season (even here at the Europeans) that she is a superior skater than Maria.

 

[MaiKatze]

It's gotta be really interesting who will be the two Ladies going into the Olympics besides Evgenia. With new junior superstars arriving on the scene, but I still think that if Anna keeps her form they should send her. I just cannot see Sotskova making an artistic leap to be a real engaging skater in a year. Even if she has the technical. Or they have to think about different programs for her. I don't think that'll happen. She is in that classical balletic corner. Maybe she needs that to feel secure. She has that deer in the headlights look. There is no attack from her. I just don't see her as a Olympic Contender. I don't think she can grow lso much in one short year. So what to do? It's going to be an exciting Nationals this year, that's for sure.