2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[Mrs. P]

I agree, but next year I don't want to hear, "How can USFSA possibly send Vincent to the Olympics? He hasn't even been tested at any major events!"

Based on USFS history, I think it is safe to assume that in the Olympic selection criteria, 2017 Worlds results will be given greater weight than 2017 Junior Worlds results.

The USFS decision not to give Vincent the 2017 Worlds spot means that he will be missing out on the opportunity to add 2017 Worlds results to his case for an Olympic spot.

And as we all know, the list of U.S. men competing for Olympic spots is long, and the battle will be intense, esp. if (heaven forfend) the U.S. has only two spots.

I am not lobbying for USFS to change its decision re 2017 Worlds. Just pointing out an additional consequence of the decision -- on another level from Tonto's comment.
I agree that it will not be fair for fans next year to hold it against Vincent that he does not have Worlds experience.
But more important, I hope that the USFS committee that selects the Olympic team will not hold it against Vincent that he does not have Worlds results.

That is a valid point. But I think a key difference again compared with 2014 is that Polina was coming out of the JGP and had not competed internationally at all. Vincent will likely skate in the Grand Prix this season. If he continues to build momentum there and show impressive scores and lands in the top 2 or 3 at nationals, I don't think USFS would deny him a spot. Just like it didn't with Jason back in 2014 when he placed second after a solid GP debut season and an impressive Nationals FS performance.

Well when they competed at the same competition Nathan ended up with higher PCS than Jason. And Nathan's increase in PCS (quickly) is an example of how the more new skaters go out there and do well the more their PCS rise. I expect Brown to end up with way higher PCS than Zhou if both were to end up at Worlds.

But I also think even with mistakes Zhou will have higher TES. And I fear Jason could be creamed on TES by the rest of the field.

Yes, Nathan's PCS rise is impressive, but not universal. I think the impact of his performances made it hard for judges to resist giving him the scores. I don't that kind of rise would have with every skater that does multiple quad programs, especially if they're not consistently hitting clean programs.

As for Jason's TES at Worlds. I get that these last two competitions doesn't inspire confidence for you. I don't know what else to tell you other than we'll see what happens.

 

[TontoK]

Based on USFS history, I think it is safe to assume that in the Olympic selection criteria, 2017 Worlds results will be given greater weight than 2017 Junior Worlds results.

The USFS decision not to give Vincent the 2017 Worlds spot means that he will be missing out on the opportunity to add 2017 Worlds results to his case for an Olympic spot.

And as we all know, the list of U.S. men competing for Olympic spots is long, and the battle will be intense, esp. if (heaven forfend) the U.S. has only two spots.

I am not lobbying for USFS to change its decision re 2017 Worlds. Just pointing out an additional consequence of the decision -- on another level from Tonto's comment.
I agree that it will not be fair for fans next year to hold it against Vincent that he does not have Worlds experience.
But more important, I hope that the USFS committee that selects the Olympic team will not hold it against Vincent that he does not have Worlds results.

---

You keep stubbornly repeating this irrelevant comment.
So I will keep stubbornly repeating the explanation as to why it "never ever" has happened before. It is a NEW RULE THIS YEAR that Junior scores do not count toward Senior TES minimums.

EXAMPLE:

If this season's new rule had been in effect in 2013-14, Polina would not have had the TES minimums for Sochi.

After she placed second at 2014 Nats, USFS would have had to scramble to send Polina to a senior international before Sochi.​

---

Anyway, congratulations to Vincent for winning the Bavarian Open and getting the Senior Worlds TES minimums .
Good luck to Vincent, Alex, and Andrew at Junior Worlds :yay:.

And congratulations to Nathan for winning Four Continents.
Good luck to Nathan and Jason at Worlds :yay:.

I don't normally follow the Junior Circuit at all, but I am going to watch the men's event this year. I especially want to see Andrew Torgeshev, who I think might be the next big deal on the technical side. I was so impressed him at US Nats. I cannot imagine what he might look like a year down the road.

 

[Mrs. P]

I don't normally follow the Junior Circuit at all, but I am going to watch the men's event this year. I especially want to see Andrew Torgeshev, who I think might be the next big deal on the technical side. I was so impressed him at US Nats. I cannot imagine what he might look like a year down the road.

I really like Andrew too. I also like that he's from outside the big training centers.

I wonder if he'll opt to go to the senior GP instead though (he is old enough)...though I think an extra year of seasoning on the JGP wouldn't be a bad thing.

Also, there's a lot of promising Russian skaters in juniors that would be worth watching too.

 

[el henry]

I don't normally follow the Junior Circuit at all, but I am going to watch the men's event this year. I especially want to see Andrew Torgeshev, who I think might be the next big deal on the technical side. I was so impressed him at US Nats. I cannot imagine what he might look like a year down the road.

Another rider on the Torgashev bandwagon

And now I really am going to go see the snowdrops...

 

[ice coverage]

That is a valid point. But I think a key difference again compared with 2014 is that Polina was coming out of the JGP and had not competed internationally at all. Vincent will likely skate in the Grand Prix this season. If he continues to build momentum there and show impressive scores and lands in the top 2 or 3 at nationals, I don't think USFS would deny him a spot. Just like it didn't with Jason back in 2014 when he placed second after a solid GP debut season and an impressive Nationals FS performance.

Thx for your reply, Mrs. P.

I brought up Polina in response only to el henry, who keeps harping on Vincent's need for the Senior minimums being something new.
My point is that it is not as if USFS were breaking precedent for Vincent re the Senior minimums. The rule is new, so there was no precedent to break.

And my other unrelated point is that one of many possible scenarios for next year could be that Vincent and Jason have similar 2017 GP results and are just one placement apart at 2018 Nats (with very close scores). If the USFS selection committee had to decide btwn the two for an Olympic spot, I hope that Vincent would not be at a disadvantage b/c he did not get to go to 2017 Worlds.

 

[beki]

Another rider on the Torgashev bandwagon

Add me too. Let's just say my heart skipped past the current phenom to the (maybe) next one.

 

[LRK]

Based on USFS history, I think it is safe to assume that in the Olympic selection criteria, 2017 Worlds results will be given greater weight than 2017 Junior Worlds results.

The USFS decision not to give Vincent the 2017 Worlds spot means that he will be missing out on the opportunity to add 2017 Worlds results to his case for an Olympic spot.

And as we all know, the list of U.S. men competing for Olympic spots is long, and the battle will be intense, esp. if (heaven forfend) the U.S. has only two spots.

I am not lobbying for USFS to change its decision re 2017 Worlds. Just pointing out an additional consequence of the decision -- on another level from Tonto's comment.
I agree that it will not be fair for fans next year to hold it against Vincent that he does not have Worlds experience.
But more important, I hope that the USFS committee that selects the Olympic team will not hold it against Vincent that he does not have Worlds results.

---

You keep stubbornly repeating this irrelevant comment.
So I will keep stubbornly repeating the explanation as to why it "never ever" has happened before. It is a NEW RULE THIS YEAR that scores from Junior comps do not count toward Senior TES minimums.

EXAMPLE:

If this season's new rule had been in effect in 2013-14, Polina would not have had the TES minimums for Sochi.

After she placed second at 2014 Nats, USFS would have had to scramble to send Polina to a senior international before Sochi.​

---

Anyway, congratulations to Vincent for winning the Bavarian Open and getting the Senior Worlds TES minimums .
Good luck to Vincent, Alex, and Andrew at Junior Worlds :yay:.

And congratulations to Nathan for winning Four Continents.
Good luck to Nathan and Jason at Worlds :yay:.

Just to add, that as a result of the new rule, conversely Sasha Petrov had to get the junior TES for junior Worlds as he has been skating senior the last two seasons (he's got them now - his ability to get them was never in question.)

(I'm not honestly sure what I think of this new rule - but that is beside the point of this thread.)

 

[Mrs. P]

Just to add, that as a result of the new rule, conversely Sasha Petrov had to get the junior TES for junior Worlds as he has been skating senior the last two seasons (he's got them now - his ability to get them was never in question.)

(I'm not honestly sure what I think of this new rule - but that is beside the point of this thread.)

The junior rule has been in place for a few seasons now. I think they institued that rule to prevent JR/Sr double dipping after other proposed rules -- like not being able to return to juniors after competing in seniors -- did not pass.

I'm honestly not sure why they introduced the senior version this year....


You should start a new thread.

 

[Tavi...]

Ugh! Look at that terrible Jason Brown!

He got out of that boot a week ago and started practicing quads - it's ridiculous he didn't put them in both programs here! He's not a real man! He does too many spirals! He's boring! He's pathetic and has no business being on Team USA, much less the Worlds Team! I mean come on, his tech score was shameful! He fell on the 3a in the SP and got an < on the 3z - who cares if he's injured! Every real senior man should always be able to land 3 perfect 3As in every competition - who cares if he had a fracture in his landing leg - that's just a stupid excuse, it should be healed by now for heaven's sake! And come on, he had a back injury last year - what is he, some kind of injury-prone weeny?

It was just luck he ended up placing 6th here because 3 guys ahead of him fell apart! And let's face it - he scored a measly 245.85 points, 60 points behind Nathan! He's worthless and should withdraw from the World Team now that Vincent's gotten his minimums! Who does he think he is, an old has been 22 year old who's never landed a quad in competition, to stand in the way of Vincent! Vincent scored 247.81 at the Bavarian Open and landed a quad lutz! He had a quad in the SP and 3 quads in the FS!

What? What's that? One of Vincent's quads was < and another other one was << and he got an < call on two of his combos? He fell once? Who cares! He's got quads! He's the future! It's a crime if he doesn't go to Worlds!

Seriously people. Do you not get that it took Vincent Zhou 4 quads to outscore a still-recovering Jason with no quads by 2 points? Have you taken a look at his protocols over the past two years? The under rotation calls here were not a fluke. He has a chronic under rotation problem.

Jason was selected for the World Team over Vincent because he's far more likely to maximize his scoring potential and place in the top 10 than Vincent. And all the whining and wuzrobbing in the world won't change that.

 

[LRK]

The junior rule has been in place for a few seasons now. I think they institued that rule to prevent JR/Sr double dipping after other proposed rules -- like not being able to return to juniors after competing in seniors -- did not pass.

I'm honestly not sure why they introduced the senior version this year....


You should start a new thread.

Thanks for the info - I did not know that.

No, I don't think I'll start a thread, as I really don't have much to say about it, not having given it sufficient "proper" thought - just more of a "feeling" really... But if anyone else started such a thread, I'd be curious to read the opinions pro & con. That's often the case. Hence, for example, why I'm reading this discussion without participating - I rarely have anything to add of value (or even without value.)

 

[karne]

Once again Vincent. Beat. Jason. At Nationals. He also showed here at Bavarian Open, that him scoring higher than Jason-is No. Fluke.

Once again: VINCENT. WAS. NOT. ELIGIBLE. FOR. WORLDS. AT. NATIONALS.

He scored higher than Jason at Bavarian? Whoop-de-doo, it was TWO POINTS. Two points with Jason making errors and Vincent screwing up a heap of those quads you lot keep screaming about. If he can't even land them all at a little, no-pressure-no-video-no-hype competition like Bavarian, what makes you think he could do it at Worlds?

I agree, but next year I don't want to hear, "How can USFSA possibly send Vincent to the Olympics? He hasn't even been tested at any major events!"

You're unlikely to hear that from Jason fans, since Jason himself was untried at ISU Championship level when he went to Sochi (debut Senior season: one GP medal, one fifth place).

 

[chuckm]

Vincent landed a clean 4Z with +2 GOE at Bavarian Open. NOT a minor feat. Also note that Oberstdorf is at altitude---it is a ski resort town in the Alps.

 

[el henry]

Add me too. Let's just say my heart skipped past the current phenom to the (maybe) next one.

I do need to be honest and say to my fellow Torgashev-ites that when I first saw the clip of him in late winter/spring 2014, my had bupkis to do with jumps and everything to do with style, panache and presentation in one so young. Still does. Don't care if he ever gets a quad. I don't care if he wins Nats, or challenges the big boys, or whatever. I just like him. :agree: I would love for him to lose the mangloves

And, when I first came back to watching skating in 2014, because of Jason, I was envious of the Jason fans (they know who they are) who had been following him as a wee sprite. How cool to know that you wanted to follow a young teen, to see what he could do? And that we now have the internet so we can do that. And now I have the same relationship to Andrew T.: hey, what took y'all so long?

 

[TontoK]

Once again: VINCENT. WAS. NOT. ELIGIBLE. FOR. WORLDS. AT. NATIONALS.

He scored higher than Jason at Bavarian? Whoop-de-doo, it was TWO POINTS. Two points with Jason making errors and Vincent screwing up a heap of those quads you lot keep screaming about. If he can't even land them all at a little, no-pressure-no-video-no-hype competition like Bavarian, what makes you think he could do it at Worlds?



You're unlikely to hear that from Jason fans, since Jason himself was untried at ISU Championship level when he went to Sochi (debut Senior season: one GP medal, one fifth place).

Karne, I'll give you credit. You are a loyal fan to the skaters you support. No snark, I mean that genuinely.

As you know I was a great fan of Jason's. I sincerely hope he proves me wrong and delivers the types of programs that will spark my interest again.

 

[KwanIsALegend]

Just a question, why are we sending an injured skater (Jason) to worlds if he can't perform to his normal standard?

Nothing against Jason, just curious. I didn't know he injured his foot until 4CC.

 

[karne]

Just a question, why are we sending an injured skater (Jason) to worlds if he can't perform to his normal standard?

Nothing against Jason, just curious. I didn't know he injured his foot until 4CC.

Were you not paying attention at Nationals?

Jason is being sent to Worlds because he is already healing and will be at 100% for Worlds. And he is still the best pure skater the US has, still scores huge, and will never let you down in the competition arena. He's reliable and solid, and you can always count on him to skate well.

He finished sixth, people. Sixth. That's a great result with everything considered. There's no reason he won't be in the top 10 at Worlds.

 

[Mrs. P]

Just a question, why are we sending an injured skater (Jason) to worlds if he can't perform to his normal standard?

Nothing against Jason, just curious. I didn't know he injured his foot until 4CC.

You didn't find out until 4CC? There was a lot of stuff about the injury at Nationals.

To clarify the timeline, he started having issues with his foot just as he was leaving for NHK. A few weeks later (mid-Dec.) he was diagnosed with a stress fracture on his right leg (the landing foot). He was off the ice for two weeks and didn't resume training until about 1.5 weeks before Nationals. He didn't start doing 3As until a few days before nationals.

So he's recovering from injury, it's not like he actively has a stress fracture. Jason is hardly the first skater who has competing not being 100 percent.

The question on everyone's mind is whether he'll be 100 percent in six weeks for Worlds.

 

[KwanIsALegend]

You didn't find out until 4CC? There was a lot of stuff about the injury at Nationals.

To clarify the timeline, he started having issues with his foot just as he was leaving for NHK. A few weeks later (mid-Dec.) he was diagnosed with a stress fracture on his right leg (the landing foot). He was off the ice for two weeks and didn't resume training until about 1.5 weeks before Nationals. He didn't start doing 3As until a few days before nationals.

So he's recovering from injury, it's not like he actively has a stress fracture. Jason is hardly the first skater who has competing not being 100 percent.

The question on everyone's mind is whether he'll be 100 percent in six weeks for Worlds.

Thanks for clarifying, I think I remember hearing about it. Sounds like he should be healed up for worlds.
And yes, 6th in the world is pretty damn good since also coming back from being away for a whole season. Good for Jason. Again, nothing against him, I can just be clueless at times.

 

[ice coverage]

As a Jason fan, I am struck that in 2016, he petitioned for an assignment to the World team. And ....

On the day that the 2016 Worlds assignments were made and announced, Jason had not yet returned to training.
So on the day of the assignments, Jason was by no means ready to compete at Worlds.
Many Jason fans were disappointed (understatement ) that his petition was denied.
They had hoped that USFS would go ahead and give Jason the assignment to 2016 Worlds -- with the understanding that he then would move forward with a training plan to be ready by the time of the competition itself.

Ironic that some of these Jason fans are insistent that it would have been untenable for USFS to go ahead and give Vincent an assignment to 2017 Senior Worlds -- with the understanding that he would need to earn the Senior Worlds minimums.
I am not aware of any published USFS rule requiring Senior Worlds minimums to already be in hand before an assignment to Senior Worlds.

And based on the analogous example of Tyler's assignment to Junior Worlds before she had the necessary minimums in hand and based on the willingness of USFS to go ahead and name Vincent as an alternate to Senior Worlds, it is counter-intuitive (IMO) to believe that such a USFS rule exists (although I do not think any of us knows for sure whether such a rule does or does not exist).

---

Anyway, my two cents are that I doubt that the Senior Worlds minimums ever were part of the USFS reasoning for why Vincent was not given the Senior Worlds spot in the first place.

At the time of the Worlds assignments, USFS had every reason to expect that a healthy Vincent would be capable of getting the Senior Worlds minimums (and with the benefit of hindsight, we now know with certainty that Vincent indeed was capable).
But even with that reasonable expectation back in January, USFS made the decision to go with Jason.

I myself will be cheering like crazy :yay: for Nathan and Jason to get three slots back.

---

Re Team Torgashev:
I am another who has high hopes for him :yay:. Also for Krasnozhon :yay:.

 

[bekalc]

Were you not paying attention at Nationals?

Jason is being sent to Worlds because he is already healing and will be at 100% for Worlds. And he is still the best pure skater the US has, still scores huge, and will never let you down in the competition arena. He's reliable and solid, and you can always count on him to skate well.

He finished sixth, people. Sixth. That's a great result with everything considered. There's no reason he won't be in the top 10 at Worlds.

He is not sixth in the World. Three guys at Euros skated higher than him with mistakes from a lot of guys above him and mistakes from the Europe guys. It is NOT a good sign!

Sure if a bunch of guys skate really really poorly he may make top ten but he needs others to make mistakes lots of them. And he cannot make any mistakes.

I realize folks think I am being a Jason hater but I am really not.