2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[frida80]

I have a feeling that after Nathan's showing at 4CC, the US Men will make quads a much bigger priority than in the past. Nathan is a great skater but, he is not in the same league artistically, as some of our other Men. However, now that he has beaten 2 World Champions, I think his PCS number will forever be elevated. I know I'm getting ahead of myself but, next year is going to be a blood bath.

I think that after Nathan got his silver in the GPF that there would already be a push for quads. It went exponentially higher after his dominance in nationals. By now people just expect Nathan to do well. I think coaches and skaters got the memo after the GPF. After all Vincent just landed his 4Lz and is working on more. It won't be a blood bath next year between Quadsters, but that day is soon coming in all Feds not just ours.

 

[bekalc]

Well, if I was the USFS I would definitely send JOsh to as many Senior B comps as possible just to make sure he's still competitive - physically and mentally. It will all come down to how he does at Nationals anyway. Agree with MrRice about not passing up skaters who have been working hard and haven't taken time off for any reason. Love Josh but he needs to earn his way back.

And as for the continual talk about Jason, et.al. who don't have quads............look back at 4CCs and see how many of those skaters actually skated clean. Oh wait - NONE of them? The "quadless" may not be on the top of the podium but obviously there is still room for someone who doesn't have a quad but has outstanding performance skills and high GOEs on what he or she does do. Being in the top 10 in an international competition is nothing to sneeze at. I'm sure Jason and his team want him out there being totally competitive but the guy has been hurt since last year. I'm hoping for a very healthy Jason and a very healthy Josh. And I have gone on record on this forum so many times - there should be a limit to quads in a program and more emphasis and just downright good, clean skating. It still pains me to see someone get a medal after they've landed on their butts in the program. Something really wrong with that. Maybe they shouldn't get points for rotation.............

Well I don't recall Jason being clean at Four Continents either. And I especially don't find singling a double axel at the end of the program with the content he had to be that impressive.

I am not a fan of quad falls getting a ton of points but if we are going to penalize guys for trying I think we need to look down on those who are not even bothering.

As for limiting quads why? Say what you will about Nathan but it's very clear he can handle his five quads and Hanyu looks good with his four.

Why should Chen be limited just because others are throwing in things that are two difficult for them.

 

[chuckm]

How do Senior B's work? Are those by assignment as well? Maybe that's where Joshua should start his comeback. I know he can land quads in his home rink with no pressure. However, I really think he should ease into the season. Jason got on the Podium with no quad and Adam rarely lands more than one, if that, per program. What I don't want to see are skaters like Ross, Grant, Timothy, Vincent, or Alex Johnson being passed up to get Josh out there.

My next question is about the Junior Men. Do either Andrew Torgashev or Alexei Krasnozhon plan on moving up to the Senior level? If so, we have a very crowed and talented field of skaters who should all get assignments ahead of Josh. Now, is there a limit to how many US skaters can compete at Skate America? Maybe they can give him a host pick and let him do Senior B's until he's really back in Competitive Condition.

Andrew Torgashev competed Senior at this past Nationals: he was 11th, just behind Max Aaron and Jordan Moeller. Moeller got a Senior assignment at Challenge Cup this week, and Andrew is headed to JW next month. Alexei just won Nationals as a Junior and presumably will move up to Senior next year. He is going to JW along with Andrew and Vincent.

 

[mrrice]

Andrew Torgashev competed Senior at this past Nationals: he was 11th, just behind Max Aaron and Jordan Moeller. Moeller got a Senior assignment at Challenge Cup this week, and Andrew is headed to JW next month. Alexei just won Nationals as a Junior and presumably will move up to Senior next year. He is going to JW along with Andrew and Vincent.

Thanks Chuckm.....

 

[TontoK]

Some of this discussion reminds me of Jill Trenary.

She was such a classy skater, a real fan favorite. I liked her very, very much.

She was steamrolled by the technical advances of the ladies at that time.,, principally, but not exclusively, Midori Ito. The elimination of the school figures didn't help her cause, but even so, she couldn't have kept up technically.

I have read on the internet (so it must be true) that she is a very nice person.

I'm glad she won her WGM on her last reasonable opportunity, even if it DID mean that Midori had to have a mistake for that to happen.

 

[chuckm]

The 5s and 6s Vincent would receive in PCS at senior Worlds would undo all the points he gets from the (underotated) quads he does.

Vincent got 7s in both SP and FS at the Bavarian Open---and the 4z he landed in the FS got +1.80 GOE.
Samarin, another junior skating senior at Euros, got the same 7s he got in the JGP, and he had a fall on the quad in his SP and lots of mistakes in his FS, including a fall and doubled jumps.

And looking at the PCS from 2016 Worlds, the only PCS 5s were in the SP for the 4 lowest-scored men who were FNR.
In the FS, the 6s ended with 17th place in the FS.

Somehow I don't see Vincent finishing that far down in either segment.

 

[Tavi...]

Does your TES analysis include downgrade jumps for those other guys too. I am sorry but a downgraded jump does not count.

Nobody's using the word never with Jason. I think rather the word is unlikely- and it's skepticism.... Yes a lot of the quad guys are messing up, But a lot of them are just getting use to putting their difficult content in competition. I remember when Hanyu was falling on his quad sal consistently. Now its a consistent jump.

Some of those guys may decide to lighten their load in the Olympics. Go for 3 quads rather than 5. That's a real strategy that works. Do hard content that's to much for you than lighten your load a little bit, so that what you do for the big competition is easy. Tarasova did that with Kulik in 1997-1998. She gave him a super difficult program in 1997, he did not skate well. He worked on his stamina, and she gave him an easier program for the Olympics. He won everything in sight that year.

The quad also is a lot psychologically. Do you remember 2010 Brezina? Because I do. He was landing 8 triple programs easily. Magnificent jumps. Then he started adding in his quads. And we have the inconsistent skater we have today. That's why I am not so convinced that Jason is this great competitor. Even Patrick Chan has talked about how doing quads in competition helped him learn how hard it is. How much it takes out of you.

So at this point, the quad is coming in practice, would be uacceptable if I were his skating federation. HE's had three years to get it.

People are acting like it's cruel for us to say USFSA should focus on the skaters who are producing the quads. But you know what sometimes tough love/ no more excuses is the best thing possible for a skater. Look at Alissa Czisny. She was given questionably, a crazy National title. Skated poorly (which was no shock to anyone)

The next year at Nationals, the judges actually started truly calling out on her issues like underrotations. And you know happened, she changed coaches and made a ton of improvements....

So if I were USFSA my feelings towards Brown, Rippon and all the skaters. You have the quad, no excuses.

Sorry, but I'm not quite sure what you mean by asking whether results for the other competitors included downgraded jumps, and that downgraded jumps don't count?

Really, all I am saying is that with one clean FS program with a fully-rotated quad, there is some evidence that Jason could achieve TES of about 100. I am not saying that would be enough to beat anyone.

I understand that you and many others here believe that having quads is critical and that since Jason doesn't have one yet, USFS should turn its attention and support to other guys who already have quads and more potential to medal at the World /Olympic level than Jason. USFS is clearly supporting Nathan. It remains to be seen what will happen next year, but it's entirely possible they'll agree with you. Only time will tell.

 

[andromache]

Vincent got 7s in both SP and FS at the Bavarian Open---and the 4z he landed in the FS got +1.80 GOE.
Samarin, another junior skating senior at Euros, got the same 7s he got in the JGP, and he had a fall on the quad in his SP and lots of mistakes in his FS, including a fall and doubled jumps.

And looking at the PCS from 2016 Worlds, the only PCS 5s were in the SP for the 4 lowest-scored men who were FNR.
In the FS, the 6s ended with 17th place in the FS.

Somehow I don't see Vincent finishing that far down in either segment.

Sorry, guess I should've said that if Vincent is scored fairly he would receive 5s and 6s in PCS. He has a lot of promise, but his presentation and skating is nowhere near as developed as Nathan's was last year.

Euros (and Bavarian Open, for that matter) is a much weaker field than Worlds, and Samarin had success on JGP and JGPF to begin building a rep that Vincent doesn't have.

If a skater's only performances of the season until Nationals are poor showings at the junior level, throwing them to the judges at senior Worlds could wind up being a huge mistake. Bavarian Open hadn't happened yet when USFS announced the team, . The rules for team selection did not include any competitions after Nationals, so the decision USFS made was and is reasonable.

Both Vincent and Jason made a lot of mistakes at Bavarian Open and 4CCs and wound up with very, very close scores, but it's reasonable to assume that Vincent would receive lower PCS at Worlds, where his weaknesses will be thrown into obvious relief, skating alongside men like Patrick, Yuzu, and yes, Jason.

 

[Tavi...]

Well I don't recall Jason being clean at Four Continents either. And I especially don't find singling a double axel at the end of the program with the content he had to be that impressive.

I am not a fan of quad falls getting a ton of points but if we are going to penalize guys for trying I think we need to look down on those who are not even bothering.

This to me seems like the real reason why you keep criticizing Jason and his selection for the World Team: you look down on him for what you characterize as "not bothering" to do quads. You might try asking yourself why you feel the need to look down on anyone at all.

For the record, Jason got out of his walking boot last week. He started practicing quads again last week. For the first time in about 2 months. He tried the quad in his FS run through. He fell, and it impacted his 3A landing. Do you wonder at that, considering the injury was to his landing leg? It wasn't ready so they took it out. So much for "not bothering."

 

[ice coverage]

... How do Senior B's work? Are those by assignment as well? ...

Yes.

... Now, is there a limit to how many US skaters can compete at Skate America?...

The max for each GP (but not the GPF) is three entries per discipline per country.

---

Will segue to an unrelated Skate America question that has been on my mind:

Is it possible that US skaters with two GP assignments might be less interested in Skate America this year than usual??​

It will be the last GP of the series, so for US skaters hoping to qualify for the GPF and to be selected for the Olympics, the potential schedule for those assigned to Skate America would be:

Skate America in Lake Placid: Nov 24-26

GPF in Nagoya: Dec 7-10

U.S. Nats in San Jose: Jan 4-7 + gala on Jan 8

OWG in Korea: Feb 9 team event Men's SP and Pairs SP; Feb 11 team event SD, Ladies SP, Pairs FS; etc.; etc.​

(I take it that in addition to the usual positive things about Skate America, Lake Placid is a lovely place; its Olympic history would be inspiring; etc., etc.
But it's not super-convenient to get to.
And Skate America is during Thanksgiving, which -- depending on the individual skater's POV -- could be seen either as a good thing or not-so-good thing or neutral thing.)

---

In El Henry's defense, I believe he is a solid and vocal Jason supporter....

... el henry was absolutely jesting...he adores Jason.

BTW, our friend el henry is a "she" .

Agree that she adores Jason and was absolutely jesting.

 

[el henry]

While I wish the best for Josh, landing any jump in practice doesn't always translate to competition. The men's competition this past week certainly proved that.

ElHenry - were you serious in calling Jason a "lazy good for nothing?" If so...............that's really disgusting. If you were kidding.....maybe let on you were kidding? Sheesh.

Oh, I am sorry, I was completely and totally joking.

Folks can criticize Jason for not mastering a quad, and say that for them, seeing lots of quads is the most important part of a program (I don't understand that, but then, my brother-in-law hates chocolate, and I don't understand that either),

What gets my considerable Irish up, though, is hearing that we should therefore be happy to see all these kids doing quads next year kick Jason to the curb. :dev2: So I was trying to derail that train of thought

Also, I see from other posts that I should have gone with the second choice for a user name, some variant on "Toller 4Ever" Henry is my last name (as in my real last name). El is a nickname based on my first initial. I am a she. Not that it matters a darn.

ETA: Our friend @ice coverage was posting as I typed. As usual, with the inside scoop.:thumbsup:

 

[TontoK]

Oh, I am sorry, I was completely and totally joking.

Folks can criticize Jason for not mastering a quad, and say that for them, seeing lots of quads is the most important part of a program (I don't understand that, but then, my brother-in-law hates chocolate, and I don't understand that either),

What gets my considerable Irish up, though, is hearing that we should therefore be happy to see all these kids doing quads next year kick Jason to the curb. :dev2: So I was trying to derail that train of thought

Also, I see from other posts that I should have gone with the second choice for a user name, some variant on "Toller 4Ever" Henry is my last name (as in my real last name). El is a nickname based on my first initial. I am a she. Not that it matters a darn.

So sorry El. I meant no offense by referring to you as "he." Thanks for being cool about that.

Maybe you're descended from Patrick Henry. Even if you're not, you should claim to be.

By the way, Tonto is a male name. First name. And I'm a man.

 

[el henry]

So sorry El. I meant no offense by referring to you as "he." Thanks for being cool about that.

Maybe you're descended from Patrick Henry. Even if you're not, you should claim to be.

By the way, Tonto is a male name. First name. And I'm a man.

Give me liberty or give me Andrew T. (we can both agree on that, right?)

No need for apologies at all, the user name is confusing. Maybe next time if not "Toller 4Ever" I'll try "JasonFangirl" . Or "Fanwoman"

 

[noskates]

This to me seems like the real reason why you keep criticizing Jason and his selection for the World Team: you look down on him for what you characterize as "not bothering" to do quads. You might try asking yourself why you feel the need to look down on anyone at all.

For the record, Jason got out of his walking boot last week. He started practicing quads again last week. For the first time in about 2 months. He tried the quad in his FS run through. He fell, and it impacted his 3A landing. Do you wonder at that, considering the injury was to his landing leg? It wasn't ready so they took it out. So much for "not bothering."

THANK YOU!!!! Thank you for bringing some reality to this quad-centric thread!!!

 

[noskates]

El, maybe change your name to Elle Henry! And thank you for clearing your post up for me. (wow, I'm doing a lot of thanking all of a sudden) Or you and I could be JasonUber1 and JasonUber2?

Anybody foolish enough to think Jason is not viable anymore......................a pox on you! A man recovering from recent injuries and still turning in a 6th place performance at an international competition of the 4CCs caliber tells me that there is still merit to his skating. I doubt there is anyone anywhere that doesn't realize more than Kori Ade and Jason that he needs quads. And it certainly isn't for lack of talent and ability. Hopefully he can have an injury=free year.

 

[bekalc]

Yes Jason was injured. But they all have injuries. It's part and parcel.

If Brown was landing consistent quads in competition beforehand I don't think anyone would be concerned.

But he wasn't. We are talking about someone being assessed as part of a team and when making that assessment it is only fair and right to look at what someone is actually doing not what you hope they may do.

And it this point for the top men competing international level the USFSA should be insisting on quads. You are not competitive without them. So I would want to be seeing a consistent one in competition not oh practice is coming well.

Tougn love no excuses works sometimes. I recall when the Russian federation left Irina of a team. The next year she came back as a much better skater.

 

[noskates]

Well it's really a very sad state of affairs when 1 type of jump determines if a person is a successful figure skater or not.

 

[Mathman]

El, maybe change your name to Elle Henry!...

:thumbsup:

 

[mrrice]

Yes.



The max for each GP (but not the GPF) is three entries per discipline per country.

---

Will segue to an unrelated Skate America question that has been on my mind:

Is it possible that US skaters with two GP assignments might be less interested in Skate America this year than usual??​

It will be the last GP of the series, so for US skaters hoping to qualify for the GPF and to be selected for the Olympics, the potential schedule for those assigned to Skate America would be:

Skate America in Lake Placid: Nov 24-26

GPF in Nagoya: Dec 7-10

U.S. Nats in San Jose: Jan 4-7 + gala on Jan 8

OWG in Korea: Feb 9 team event Men's SP and Pairs SP; Feb 11 team event SD, Ladies SP, Pairs FS; etc.; etc.​

(I take it that in addition to the usual positive things about Skate America, Lake Placid is a lovely place; its Olympic history would be inspiring; etc., etc.
But it's not super-convenient to get to.
And Skate America is during Thanksgiving, which -- depending on the individual skater's POV -- could be seen either as a good thing or not-so-good thing or neutral thing.)

---

BTW, our friend el henry is a "she" .

Agree that she adores Jason and was absolutely jesting.

Thank you so much for answering my questions. I know I'm asking always something and I truly appreciate it.

 

[bekalc]

Well it's really a very sad state of affairs when 1 type of jump determines if a person is a successful figure skater or not.

I didn't realize it was one type of jump. When top skaters are doing 4/5 of them.

Unless you think its a sad state of affairs that ladies who only do doubles can't win female championships.