2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[drivingmissdaisy]

Men's figure skating has gone to an extreme and now, IMO, it needs to find a happy balance. Not sure Vincent is the one to do that. Hopefully I'm wrong.

Vincent is still very young, so I expect his skating to look much different two years from now. At the 2022 Olympics, he will be 21 and probably in his prime.

 

[Jaana]

Yeah, I think the approach each skater makes is really able on their resources and abilities at a given time. A key reason that Jason ended up working so much on the non-jump stuff, i.e. skating skills, performing, spins, flexibility, is because the jumps for him have always been more challenging. It was a way for him to stand out even if he didn't have the jumps of his competitors. If Jason not struggled so much on jumps, would he (and Kori) have adopted a different strategy? I don't know.

It seems to me that Brown would have been a great success at 2010 Olympics, now it looks he is kind of from the wrong era to be competitive. Maybe his coach was just too inexperienced? Could not ice dance have been a better choice for a person who has difficulties in learning jumps, perhaps? It took such a loooong for him to get the triple axel and it still isn´t quite consistent.

 

[Mrs. P]

It seems to me that Brown would have been a great success at 2010 Olympics, now it looks he is kind of from the wrong era to be competitive. Maybe his coach was just too inexperienced? Could not ice dance have been a better choice for a person who has difficulties in learning jumps, perhaps? It took such a loooong for him to get the triple axel and it still isn´t quite consistent.

Jason did do pairs -- along with singles -- back in the day, but he chose to stick to men's figure skating, for better or worse. I think it was his decision to stick to the discipline and I think it has little to do with Kori's coaching experience.

As for the 3A, post injury, he's missed it both times in his SP (falls in both, UR in the SP at Nationals), but he's hit all four of them in his FS. And in his other competitions (other than NHK), he's landed all but one of his attempts (he popped the first 3A in his FS at Salt Lake Senior B).

NHK was his worst -- he got zero GOE on his 3A in the SP and missed both his 3As (one -GOE the other was <).

I don't think his 3A rate is that much worse relative to competitors, but since he hasn't done the quad successfully, I understand why more people put more focus on it.

 

[ice coverage]

... Didn't see the VIncent Zhou Rippon 4Lz until just now that it was quoted. I thought he left Tom Z.?

... Sounds like Vincent is now consulting with Tom Z on jumps, which is probably a good thing.

On a part-time basis this season, Vincent lately has been in Colorado Springs quite a lot. Partly to work with Drew Meekins; partly to work with Tom Z; and partly to draw on OTC medical/training resources for Vincent's recovery from injury.

(When Tammy and Karen were at Four Continents, Drew accompanied Vincent to the Bavarian Open.)

---

ahhhh - I see Vincent has morphed into "the skater du jour!" Every year there's a new one. ...

I for one always am happy to give a "skater du jour" a chance to earn my lasting attention for the long haul.
To me, it's always exciting to "discover" a more-or-less-new-to-me skater who potentially will give me enjoyment going forward.

From what I can tell, only a small number of GS fans already had been firmly ensconced on the Jason bandwagon for years before his Riverdance at 2014 Nats. (My own casual interest in Jason had been growing for the preceding year or two, but I had not yet expected my seat on the bandwagon to become permanent.)
I think it's great that a much larger number of now-diehard Jason fans apparently jumped on the bandwagon specifically b/c he made a breakthrough in Boston. Good for Jason for becoming the skater du jour there ... and then for continuing in the following months and years to give his new (and old) fans new reasons to support him.

Until Max won 2013 Nats, I was only vaguely aware of him. His breakthrough in Omaha made me sit up and take notice ... and he too has never stopped giving me new reasons to keep loving him :luv17:.

 

[Sydney Rose]

Vincent is still very young, so I expect his skating to look much different two years from now. At the 2022 Olympics, he will be 21 and probably in his prime.

Or he may be well past his prime by that age--that is, he may not be able to execute all those quads by then. His body may have matured to the point where it's just not possible to attain prior levels of consistency.

Same with Nathan. It's possible that Nathan may be close to his prime right now, which would put him in a good position to win the Olympics next year. 2022, not so likely.

We really don't know yet what the skating life span is for male skaters with such a variety of quad jumps.

 

[chuckm]

Some notes from the CHALLENGE CUP:

In NOVICE MEN, Maxim NAUMOV is in 2nd place behind CAN skater Beresford Clements after the SP.

In SENIOR MEN, Jordan MOELLER is in 2nd place behind Jorick Hendrickx after the SP.

 

[Tavi...]

Some notes from the CHALLENGE CUP:

In NOVICE MEN, Maxim NAUMOV is in 2nd place behind CAN skater Beresford Clements after the SP.

In SENIOR MEN, Jordan MOELLER is in 2nd place behind Jorick Hendrickx after the SP.

Yay Maxim, yay Jordan! I'm so pleased that Jordan had a good SP in his first international comp since breaking his leg!

 

[Mrs. P]

Speaking of Maxim Naumov, this story on Ice Network mentions that Naumov's parents, Evgenia Shishkova and Vadim Naumov, will be joining the staff at the Skating Club of Boston.

They were previously based in Simsbury, Conn. Sounds like Shishkova and Naumov will work on developing a pairs program at SCOB and Naumov will get benefit from this I'm sure.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Jason did do pairs -- along with singles -- back in the day, but he chose to stick to men's figure skating, for better or worse.

Oh, I didn't know that! While I love my Men's single skater Jason, I'm sure he would have been great as a Pairs skater too - from his talents in skating to the fact that he is such a positive, supportive human being. If I was a ladies Pairs skater, I'd have been super happy to skate with Jason I'm sure :luv17:

(And with that, I'm backing out again to leave the rest to the same discussion again - sorry for the interruption )

 

[Mrs. P]

Oh, I didn't know that! While I love my Men's single skater Jason, I'm sure he would have been great as a Pairs skater too - from his talents in skating to the fact that he is such a positive, supportive human being. If I was a ladies Pairs skater, I'd have been super happy to skate with Jason I'm sure :luv17:

(And with that, I'm backing out again to leave the rest to the same discussion again - sorry for the interruption )

He and his partner, Thea Milburn did compete at the juvenile level at U.S. Nationals in 2006. I found this Chicago Tribune article about her father, who basically made and sold metal sculptures to help pay for his daughter's skating: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...international-crane-foundation-sandhill-crane

I also remembered in some interview where Jason said he did a bunch of other sports -- he used to be on a travel soccer team -- in addition to figure skating when he was growing up. He didn't really buckle down and decide to commit fully to figure skating until he was 11 or 12, IIRC. That might have contributed to the late blooming technically.

Also in the reverse -- Charlie White did both men's singles (up to junior) and ice dance for a little while. He also was on a hockey team. So this sort of thing is common.

 

[el henry]

Have to disagree with you here - I think that Yuzu and Javi have shown that once you are confident in the jumps, you can develop as an artist and/or performer. Perhaps neither is a Toller or a Curry, but Yuzu's skating skills have improved leaps and bounds over the past 4 years, and Javi can play a character and charm and audience very, very well. Just seeing the development from his semi-awkward Barber of Seville to his Sinatra program is .

I don't like the idea that artistry is a "gift" only to the select few. You can work your butt off to improve your skating, your attention to choreography, and your ability to interpret it. Of course, your development of jumps versus artistry will depend on how much you practice, and there's only so much time in one day. Once you've "mastered" one thing, you obviously still need to practice it, but you can devote more time to the stuff you still need to learn. And the younger you learn something, whether it's a quad lutz or Patrick Chan skating skills, the easier it is to do later on. But what part is going to be harder to develop the older you are, the jumps or the PCS stuff? Whatever the answer is will in part determine what it is skaters should be working on, and when.

I don't think we disagree that much, and my wording (and frustration) could have contributed.

In my worldview, a gift can be innate, but it is also polished, honed, and very much improved with practice and dedication to the gift. Yuzu and Javi are two examples. In fact, I adored Javi's LP last year, but I need to be honest and say that the music influenced me tremendously. Before he even skated, I posted that I wanted to see Fugue for Tinhorns as part of the program (very difficult) and when it was, even a 30 second clip, I was verklempt. Javi could have stood still and waved his arms and I would have loved it.

I get very frustrated at the concept that artistry/performance/interpretation is an afterthought that any old skater can master after they get the jumps. And I don't know how many times and in how many posts I've given Nathan props for improving. The fact that, IMHO, a skater as talented as Nathan still doesn't have it, shows that those skills aren't something you just learn in a few months with Marina. I didn't think that I was coming off as "El Exigente" from the coffee commercials here, but maybe I am.....

BTW, Jason liked a tweet that said, essentially, can't wait to see you skate to "Wait for It" next year. I really think this a real program

 

[TontoK]

I don't think we disagree that much, and my wording (and frustration) could have contributed.

In my worldview, a gift can be innate, but it is also polished, honed, and very much improved with practice and dedication to the gift. Yuzu and Javi are two examples. In fact, I adored Javi's LP last year, but I need to be honest and say that the music influenced me tremendously. Before he even skated, I posted that I wanted to see Fugue for Tinhorns as part of the program (very difficult) and when it was, even a 30 second clip, I was verklempt. Javi could have stood still and waved his arms and I would have loved it.

I get very frustrated at the concept that artistry/performance/interpretation is an afterthought that any old skater can master after they get the jumps. And I don't know how many times and in how many posts I've given Nathan props for improving. The fact that, IMHO, a skater as talented as Nathan still doesn't have it, shows that those skills aren't something you just learn in a few months with Marina. I didn't think that I was coming off as "El Exigente" from the coffee commercials here, but maybe I am.....

BTW, Jason liked a tweet that said, essentially, can't wait to see you skate to "Wait for It" next year. I really think this a real program

An good example of a skater who improved his artistry dramatically is Brian Boitano.

For those too young to have followed his development to World and Olympic champion, they might not know that he "arrived" as a jumper. During the run-up to the Olympics, he really developed the artistic and interpretive part of his skating.

People who only know his skating from his professional career may not realize he put a lot of work into developing those programs that deeply connected with the audience on an emotional level.

 

[andromache]

BTW, Jason liked a tweet that said, essentially, can't wait to see you skate to "Wait for It" next year. I really think this a real program

Bless Rohene. I don't think I'd trust any other choreographer with Hamilton songs. (Can he choreograph a program for Mariah to "Satisfied"? Kthanks. )

 

[karne]

I get very frustrated at the concept that artistry/performance/interpretation is an afterthought that any old skater can master after they get the jumps

And I get very frustrated when some people act like those with the innate gift are somehow superior to those who are working their butts off to try and get there and get no credit for it.

 

[Tavi...]

I think one of the biggest improvements I've ever seen was in Josh Farris, with Give Me Love. It's not that he was bad before. He just went from being very...internalized, perhaps? To really communicating.

 

[andromache]

I think one of the biggest improvements I've ever seen was in Josh Farris, with Give Me Love. It's not that he was bad before. He just went from being very...internalized, perhaps? To really communicating.

Choreographers are good for more than the choreography itself - good ones teach skaters to interpret music and project to an audience, and can be a huge part of a skater's development. Jeffrey Buttle has done magnificent work with Josh and Yuzu (and others). David Wilson helped make Yuna Kim a legend. Philip Mills and Shae-Lynne Bourne have definitely helped to create Ashley Wagner as the Ashley Wagner we know and love.

I'm hoping we get to see the Pines of Rome program that Jeff Buttle choreographed. There's no way it's not another masterpiece.

 

[Tavi...]

Choreographers are good for more than the choreography itself - good ones teach skaters to interpret music and project to an audience, and can be a huge part of a skater's development. Jeffrey Buttle has done magnificent work with Josh and Yuzu (and others). David Wilson helped make Yuna Kim a legend. Philip Mills and Shae-Lynne Bourne have definitely helped to create Ashley Wagner as the Ashley Wagner we know and love.

I'm hoping we get to see the Pines of Rome program that Jeff Buttle choreographed. There's no way it's not another masterpiece.

I will look forward to seeing Josh back.

 

[TontoK]

I think one of the biggest improvements I've ever seen was in Josh Farris, with Give Me Love. It's not that he was bad before. He just went from being very...internalized, perhaps? To really communicating.

Good choice! That program was so fresh and laid-back and cool. You could tell by the way that he skated it that he really connected with the music and the choreography and styling of the program. It was different and innovative and wonderful.

 

[TontoK]

More thoughts on Boitano. A year before the Olympics, he essentially had his technical arsenal ready. The run-up year was spent in developing style and artistry. By the time he hit Calgary, he was almost an entirely different kind of skater.

That's why I'm so optimistic about Nathan Chen. He really doesn't need to invest a lot of time developing new technical firepower. That part is there. I think he'll spend a lot of time this season with Marina.

BTW, I don't happen to believe he has no artistry or PCS as some claim, but I do think he can really develop this part of his skating and be something special.

 

[shine]

^https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbKb3RVPVSw I don't believe someone who could skate a program like this at 15 has no artistry in him. It's just a matter of bringing it back and being able to combine it with his current tech content. This program is just stunning.