2017 Jr Worlds Ladies FS

[solani]

Those kind of problems about parents, coaches, doctors pushing the skaters won't be solved just by pushing the age eligibility to 17 or 18. Junior men mostly only move up to senior when they are 17-18, despite the age restriction. It doesn't stop them from learning billions of quads since 12. I think 15 is fine. You want to see the best people in the sport at their best shape. Not just people who survive puberty.

When I watch ladies figure skating I want to see women and not little girls. And I want them to have both a childhood and a decent senior career.
I'm very sure that they would train less until at least the age of 14 if the would change the age eligibility to 18. Money, coach/training availability etc. would be a factor. They would work more on the basics, on good technique, those kind of things.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

So when are we going to discuss what happened with Polina? Today felt like watching Gracie at US national, wondering what the heck happens here. Is she injured? Did something happen?

Will Eteri be able stick with her? She hasn't been known to keep injured or struggling skaters very long in the past.

 

[MarinHondas]

While I agree that backloading everything goes against the spirit of the bonus (which was intended to encourage "balanced" programs, because all jumps were used to be front-loaded at the start)...

...Do we really need to change the rules on account of a very few skaters who are able to backload most/all of their jumps?

Also, if they're clever about their choreography, and/or are able to make their jumps part of the choreogrpahy (a la Hanyu), then the programs don't even need to feel unbalanced. Rather thah change the rules, it might be better to reduce CH component score or something for "bad" backloading?

I get the feeling many complaints about backloading are not because people feel programs are empty in first half, or unbalanced... but because people resent skaters who able to milk more points out of the system than their favourites, and it's an excuse to rip into them. Same goes for "mime" - I don't get it. It's like complaining about skaters using balletic movements. Or smiling. Or doing spirals or something. I don't see the issue.

I think people dont resent the skater but rather the fact that they will already win before they have even skated. of course, they are just doing what is need to win but it gets boring. In order to prevent this people want the rules to be changed. But I agree its not fair to change everthing because a few skaters are abusing the rules.

 

[frida80]

Just being a top US skater is in itself not enough to be a top world skater anymore.

I never said it was. But unlike several ladies, Kaitlyn is young enough to learn how to be a top skater on the JGP circuit without pressure to move up to senior prematurely. She has all her jumps, solid triple triples. She learns really fast and will clearly improve over the summer.

 

[frida80]

Will Eteri be able stick with her? She hasn't been known to keep injured or struggling skaters very long in the past.

Really?

I hope Eteri will keep it private unlike Frank.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

When I watch ladies figure skating I want to see women and not little girls. And I want them to have both a childhood and a decent senior career.
I'm very sure that they would train less until at least the age of 14 if the would change the age eligibility to 18. Money, coach/training availability etc. would be a factor. They would work more on the basics, on good technique, those kind of things.

Ugh....every action has a reaction type thing. I think you're totally wrong on the matter and you'd see people training just as hard and maybe harder to fight off body changes but now you'd have them doing it until they were 18 Besides...the people I know who all compete are usually done by the time they are about 18-19. A lot of people peak between 14-18 and we'd never see the ones who have their best years at that age be rewarded. Even the skaters I know who competed at the top international elite level were done before 20

 

[mcq]

When I watch ladies figure skating I want to see women and not little girls. And I want them to have both a childhood and a decent senior career.
I'm very sure that they would train less until at least the age of 14 if the would change the age eligibility to 18. Money, coach/training availability etc. would be a factor. They would work more on the basics, on good technique, those kind of things.

That's a subjective thing. Marin or even arguably Alina skates better in terms of maturity than some other 18-19 years old I have seen skating in the senior circuit, I am not even talking about their SS and quality of elements here. Again, I want to see the best skaters fight it out. Marin, Alina and Kaori skates better than even some mid-tier senior skaters. The age restriction has already kept them away, I don't see why you want to add it to 17-18. We would not have seen even Yuna or Mao in the senior circuit winning medals on the world podium then. And they are the skaters with longevity. Sometimes great skaters are just that great since young, just my opinion.

 

[Leonardo]

I can accept her win but I cannot accept her receiving the same PCS as Marin.

Seriously. Marin skated like a queen, a mature and absolutely gorgeous senior skater, superb quality. Zagitova skates like a junior. Huge difference. But congrats for the winner, a deserved victory for an amazing technicall display(with good ss, tr and ch to be fair). Alina certainly won the gold fair and square, but once again it seems (by the crowd's reaction) that Marin won the publics' heart.

 

[yude]

Congratulations to all the medalists

I loved Alina After Marin's performance, she skated so well!! I hope she will keep improving without puberty. My favorite Russian skaters are Alina and Anna now.

Marin did great under the huge amount of pressure, I was very impressed! She was crying in the interview but I hope it will make her even stronger. She said she had decided the music of the program (according to an article, it seems SP) for the next season this morning and looked excited about it.

I'm also proud of Kaori and Yuna. Russian nationals and Japanese nationals are going to be insane this year...

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I think people dont resent the skater but rather the fact that they will already win before they have even skated. of course, they are just doing what is need to win but it gets boring. In order to prevent this people want the rules to be changed. But I agree its not fair to change everthing because a few skaters are abusing the rules.

But nobody really wins anything before they even skated. The reason Alinas win was so likely (or Evgenias at GPF) is their consistency. So people dislike them for being consistent, or better to say they dislike it that we have such consistent ladies?
Pretty hilarious when on the other hand the guys are often slammed for being so inconsistent.

Also, if a lady would pop up who has a 4T and is pretty consistent and (rightfully) beats everyone because of that, would it also be so annoying for people because it's predictable?
Oh man, just after typing that, I realized that probably yes, we'd have people being annoying and wanting no quads allowed for ladies or something

 

[MarinHondas]

But nobody really wins anything before they even skated. The reason Alinas win was so likely (or Evgenias at GPF) is their consistency. So people dislike them for being consistent, or better to say they dislike it that we have such consistent ladies?
Pretty hilarious when on the other hand the guys are often slammed for being so inconsistent.

Also, if a lady would pop up who has a 4T and is pretty consistent and (rightfully) beats everyone because of that, would it also be so annoying for people because it's predictable?
Oh man, just after typing that, I realized that probably yes, we'd have people being annoying and wanting no quads allowed for ladies or something

one thing consistentcy one thing wins every competiton. it just gets boring. She does deserve it. They deserve to win but I understand why people want to make rules. Quads and tanos/rippons are different as well. People(me too) also simply think tano/rippon are ugly and backloading is unbalanced. Quads push sport forward. I want apologize for my bad English as well. I hope I make sense.

 

[andromache]

Will Eteri be able stick with her? She hasn't been known to keep injured or struggling skaters very long in the past.

Tbh that worries me. I love Polina so much, huge jumps, and to me she really seems to have the "it" factor - Alina's skating is just too rushed for me, whereas Polina's is more musical. She's going to need a coach who can adjust her jumps as she grows, an uber technician, which may not be Eteri's strength.

At least maybe next season we will get Alina versus Evgenia, which should be more interesting than Evgenia domination like this season. I'd like to see Alina get better at holding her movements though, less rushed choreography. I'm also wondering how long the -3Lo combo will be consistent. Senior ladies just cannot get full rotation on them - will depend on how much she grows or doesn't grow.

I just hope no one - Evgenia, Alina, or any other skaters whose consistency is in part based upon their body types/sizes - engage in any unhealthy practices during the Olympic year in order to ensure that their bodies remain the same. This isn't "hate" or "sour grapes" - just a real acknowledgement of what gets done in sports for the sake of success.

 

[Kittosuni]

People have been backloading programs since then BUT Nobody has been this blatant with codewhoring than Zagitova.

Wait Im confused, is that supposed to be an insult or an acknowledgement how brilliant her team is???

 

[mcq]

But nobody really wins anything before they even skated. The reason Alinas win was so likely (or Evgenias at GPF) is their consistency. So people dislike them for being consistent, or better to say they dislike it that we have such consistent ladies?
Pretty hilarious when on the other hand the guys are often slammed for being so inconsistent.

Also, if a lady would pop up who has a 4T and is pretty consistent and (rightfully) beats everyone because of that, would it also be so annoying for people because it's predictable?
Oh man, just after typing that, I realized that probably yes, we'd have people being annoying and wanting no quads allowed for ladies or something

I would think this consistency from top ladies would motivate more people to have harder jumps. It is risky, but unless they can have higher BV with backloading (and with Alina already backload all of her jumps), the only way is to double down by doing 3A or maybe a quad. Otherwise you have no way of beating them. We will see.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I would think this consistency from top ladies would motivate more people to have harder jumps. It is risky, but unless they can have higher BV with backloading (and with Alina already backload all of her jumps), the only way is to double down by doing 3A or maybe a quad. Otherwise you have no way of beating them. We will see.

Well being as consistent should be a start, no?

That said, I'm all for seeing more 3As. Hopefully Rika is healthy again and can skate (and jump) to her potential again next season. And ta-da, there's a potential game changer. I also wonder, looking at Kaoris big and amazing 2A, if she could do it

 

[coconutpunch]

People have been backloading programs since then BUT Nobody has been this blatant with codewhoring than Zagitova. Even if you look at Honda she too backloads most of her jumps but at least she tries to make it look "balanced" by putting 2 jump passes in the first half because programs needed to look balanced based on the the criteria listed in the CO section.

But heck now only doing 3 elements in the first half and 7 triples 2 Axels 2 spins in the second half is now considered good choreography?

It's not even three elements in her case, but just two in the first half, which to me personally is frankly appalling. If a skater wants to place every single jumping pass after the halfway point, go for it, but at least balance the first half out! Evgenia (as well as Miki back in 2010~2011) at least had 4 elements to fluff the program up before the flurry of jumps took place. I do have to step back and shake my head, though, when the entire first half consists of just one spin and step sequence. :think: That's not to deny Alina's ability as a skater of course, because she is a special talent and the other top finishers here--Marin, Kaori, Eunsoo, Yuna S.--made this a wonderful competition.

 

[solani]

Ugh....every action has a reaction type thing. I think you're totally wrong on the matter and you'd see people training just as hard and maybe harder to fight off body changes but now you'd have them doing it until they were 18 Besides...the people I know who all compete are usually done by the time they are about 18-19. A lot of people peak between 14-18 and we'd never see the ones who have their best years at that age be rewarded. Even the skaters I know who competed at the top international elite level were done before 20

Fair point. The thing is that if they try to fight it that long they'd get all kinds of frightening health issues. Ever heard of the female athlete triad? It's very unlikely that a girl could sustain that until the age of 18 or even compete at an elite level. And 18 would be my personal wish, 17 would probably be enough.

That's a subjective thing. Marin or even arguably Alina skates better in terms of maturity than some other 18-19 years old I have seen skating in the senior circuit, I am not even talking about their SS and quality of elements here. Again, I want to see the best skaters fight it out. Marin, Alina and Kaori skates better than even some mid-tier senior skaters. The age restriction has already kept them away, I don't see why you want to add it to 17-18. We would not have seen even Yuna or Mao in the senior circuit winning medals on the world podium then. And they are the skaters with longevity. Sometimes great skaters are just that great since young, just my opinion.

Yes, some of them are great when young and are able to sustain. But we wouldn't have lost Yuna and Mao because of a year or two. Since Yuna and Mao the system has changed imo. Coaches in Russia, Japan and South Korea seem to focus largely on very young skaters. Yes, the older skaters are still around but they don't seem to be a priority to any of those coaches. Only Mishin comes to my mind who seems to still support Tuktamysheva and says that he still believes in her.
I just think that this development isn't good for the majority of the girls and not good for figure skating in the long term. A skater should at least have a senior career that covers two Olympics. The very likely loss of Sotknikova and Lipnitskaya is tough for figure skating. Could it have been avoided? I think so.

 

[Kittosuni]

People have been backloading programs since then BUT Nobody has been this blatant with codewhoring than Zagitova. Even if you look at Honda she too backloads most of her jumps but at least she tries to make it look "balanced" by putting 2 jump passes in the first half because programs needed to look balanced based on the the criteria listed in the CO section.

But heck now only doing 2 elements in the first half and 7 triples 2 Axels 2 spins in the second half is now considered good choreography?

Where in the criteria it says doing your jumps in the second half makes yours routine unbalanced? Like seriously is there a formula to it?

Marin won in PCS (very subjective criteria) while Zagitova blew her in TES(can be measured).

 

[krispy]

Aha, so here you are for revisiting the rules. Curious, curious.
So instead of say, dinging the mark for CO, if it hasn't been done well, you want to remove the bonus for something that just a few people have been doing ... no matter how many times it is repeated, it looks like it has to be repeated again. If it were that easy, many more skaters would be doing it. This is old talk, for two seasons now at least, yet somehow it just does not seem to be spreading. And it's not spreading because it is not easy to do, far from it.

In essence it boils down to - my fave can't do it, remove it.

Well if you want to repeat over and over again let me do the same

Many people have been backloading programs ex. Medvedeva and as I said even Honda here its not new

BUT

WHO else has been blatantly been skating around doing only 2 elements in the first half and no jumps and then get rewarded the PCS points?

Medvedeva at least put the effort in not to make the first half completely empty but if Zagitova starts to push her you don't think she's capable of doing the same thing? and there goes Choreography out of the window in this sport it will all become who can game the system the most.

 

[krispy]

Where in the criteria it says doing your jumps in the second half makes yours routine unbalanced? Like seriously is there a formula to it?

Marin won in PCS (very subjective criteria) while Zagitova blew her in TES(can be measured).

uhhh are you seriously telling me that 2 elements in the first half vs 7 triples 2 Axels 2 spins is balanced?

Why has the extra points awarded in the second half begin with anyways? It was because skaters were front loading programs