2017 GP Rostelecom Cup Ladies SP

[Purv]

LOL are you being serious. It bothers you that there's spins and jumps and that they are close together in a 2 min program? Of figure skating? A sport that requires spins and jumps.

LOL are you being serious? Do i wondering WHY are spins and jumps there?Can you read? Where do you
see this in my posts?OMG I am asking how to score PERFORMANCE AND INTERPETATION if the performace is made that way? Everythin is in the row--jumps, and almost spins

 

[Mathman]

As far as I know the current system is based on standards and not graded on a curve.

That is the question. I think that we would have a hard time finding support for this claim from the actual scores of past and current performances.

The main thing that I have observed is that, overall, PCS creep up and up until the ISU decides enough is enough and then they get chopped down to size and we start all over again.

I remember when the CoP first came out the judges didn't really know what it was all about and they gave Sasha Cohen automatic sky-high program components, because she skated so pretty. Then they decided, no, that's not right, and the next year everyone started getting 7s instead of 9s. As I remember, Sasha's record scores from 2003 stood for two years.

 

[charlotte14]

Some quick note from today:
- I think Nagasu’s 3A should have some doubt of benefit. It was borderline and it might have been without UR call with different panel
- Carolina was amazing. Her body movements were so expressive and classy.
- Medvedeva was boring. But she was good. I think the score is too high but she deserves the lead.

 

[GGFan]

Well, i'm just saying that what you see before your eays is not a focal point judges have before their eays.. I have no problem with what you are aiming to see, but this is out of context when you are debating about scores, because that is not what scores supposed to reflect in first place.

Fortunately for my side of the argument the PCS standards are in line with what I've been saying all along. They clearly use words and phrases like "oneness," "clarity of movement," "purpose," "intentionality," and "finesse." As I said I am an analytical person. I am well within the context of the system. Stop trying to minimize my argument by making it sound like I'm asking for something crazy.

Performance
Involvement of the skater/pair/couple physically, emotionally and intellectually as they deliver the intent of the music and composition. In evaluating the Performance, the following must be considered:
Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement and projection
Carriage and clarity of movement
Variety and contrast of movements and energy
Individuality / personality
Unison and “oneness”
Spatial awareness between partners – management of the distance between skaters and management of changes of hold (pair skating, ice dancing)
Composition
An intentionally developed and/or original arrangement of all types of movements according to the principles of musical phrase, space, pattern and structure. In evaluating the Composition, the following must be considered:

Purpose (idea, concept, vision, mood);
Pattern / ice coverage;
Multidimensional use of space and design of movements;
Phrase and form (movements and parts structured to match the musical phrase);
Originality of the composition.
Interpretation of the Music/Timing (Ice Dancing)
The personal, creative and genuine translation of the rhythm, character and content of the music to movement on ice. In evaluating the Interpretation of the Music(/Timing), the following must be considered:

Movement and steps in time to the music (timing)
Expression of the music’s character/feeling and rhythm, when clearly identifiable
Use of finesse to reflect the details and nuances of the music (Finesse is the skaters’ refined, artful manipulation of music details and nuances through movement. It is unique to the skater/skaters and demonstrates an inner feeling for the music and the composition. Nuances are the personal ways of bringing subtle variations to the intensity, tempo and dynamics of the music made by the composer and/or musicians.)

 

[Shayuki]

Triple axels will never become part of the ladies' repertoire if the judges nit pick the jumps. Close calls should go to the skater. Also, looking at the height she gets, it seems a shame that for just a slight UR (maybe), she loses so many points. Maybe URs should just have a 10% penalty; they already have a GOE penalty.

UR should have more steps. Divide the current UR into three before it becomes a downgrade and remove GOE penalty for the first step, perhaps. I too don't think it's fair a slight UR gets penalized so harshly and treated the same as a very significant UR.

 

[jenaj]

And it is rewarded in technical scoring: ISU base for 2A is 3.3 and for 3A is 8.5 pts. And Mirai got 5.04.

That isn't much of a reward. Mirai could easily score over 4 on her 2A. She had excellent height and the rotation was very close (at least) on a jump that many men have problems with. I think the base value should be higher for the ladies' 3A, given how difficult it is.

 

[GGFan]

That is the question. I think that we would have a hard time finding support for this claim from the actual scores of past and current performances.

The main thing that I have observed is that, overall, PCS creep up and up until the ISU decides enough is enough and then they get chopped down to size and we start all over again.

I remember when the CoP first came out the judges didn't really know what it was all about and they gave Sasha Cohen automatic sky-high program components, because she skated so pretty. Then they decided, no, that's not right, and the next year everyone started getting 7s instead of 9s. As I remember, Sasha's record scores from 2003 stood for two years.

Let's distinguish between the system as it is written and as it is applied. As it is written, it is a standards based system. A 9 should mean something. Now it may well be applied as a curve and that is exactly why I think I am well within the bounds of polite argument by pointing out that they are not holding to the standards they should be following.

 

[Purv]

You are allowed to perform choreographical elements even if they're not right before a jump.

Of course it is allowed, i didnt say otherwise...Last season you said that was a transistion, now choreographical element.

 

[onrsvm]

I am really bored with Medvedevas' domination over every competition. Yes she deserves first place I cannot deny that fact. But, we all need new blood. I am look forward to a new skater overtaking Medvedeva. I hope Alina Zagitova will does it. Otherwise, every competition we are losing our passion to wonder who going to take 1st place.

 

[pearly]

Triple axels will never become part of the ladies' repertoire if the judges nit pick the jumps. Close calls should go to the skater. Also, looking at the height she gets, it seems a shame that for just a slight UR (maybe), she loses so many points. Maybe URs should just have a 10% penalty; they already have a GOE penalty.

I don't think you're being objective here. It wasn't a close call at all, it was clearly UR. This is a real competition, not everyone gets a medal for showing up... or landing a 3A no matter how.

 

[Purv]

Don't feed the troll.

Thank you for offending me .I appreciate that.Here everyone is a troll who dosnt agree with you all and dosnt like Zhenias skating, right?

 

[jenaj]

I don't think you're being objective here. It wasn't a close call at all, it was clearly UR. This is a real competition, not everyone gets a medal for showing up... or landing a 3A no matter how.

I'm not the only one who thinks it was borderline. And no one is talking about getting a medal for showing up (the mind boggles at the thought that trying a 3A is just showing up). The point is that the penalty is too severe for the level of difficulty (or the base value too low). Real competitions score fairly and correct scoring rules when it is apparent they are not fair.

 

[pearly]

I'm not the only one who thinks it was borderline. And no one is talking about getting a medal for showing up (the mind boggles at the thought that trying a 3A is just showing up). The point is that the penalty is too severe for the level of difficulty (or the base value too low). Real competitions score fairly and correct scoring rules when it is apparent they are not fair.

That's a whole different discussion. But that particular Axel today, if you watch it in slow motion (and the panel did because someone obviously had their doubts during the skate) there is no question.. it's UR. You don't call it clean just because it's difficult. The judging was more consistent here than we've seen in most Challengers this season.

 

[icetug]

I think the base value should be higher for the ladies' 3A, given how difficult it is.

We can agree on it. But the score system is as it is now...

It's always a problem: try a 3A (or a quad in case of men) even if it can be UR or stay with excellent 2A (or triple). Misha Ge and Deniss Vasiljevs today stayed with triples and this paid off. Nam Nguyen tried a quad and lost. Sport is sport

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I'm not the only one who thinks it was borderline. And no one is talking about getting a medal for showing up (the mind boggles at the thought that trying a 3A is just showing up). The point is that the penalty is too severe for the level of difficulty (or the base value too low). Real competitions score fairly and correct scoring rules when it is apparent they are not fair.

I think in a perfect world and considering the best and worst 3a attempts we've seen I'd like to see it ratified with a -2 GOE. The point is moot though because that just isn't how judging works. I would prefer when the TP makes a call to downgrade or give an edge call the judges get to see the replay and vote to ratify the TP's call. I got all day to wait

 

[Purv]

Let's not pretend that my comments are without context. I'm not just some artsy person holding figure skaters to elitist standards. The sport has a long history. We know what good edges are, what good extension is, commitment to movement, etc. That is what I am judging Medvedeva by. And by those standards she has a lot she could work on. There's nothing wrong with saying that. This is not a fan fest. I am analyzing what I see before my eyes.

Dont argue with those people. Zhenia is goddess, the best female skater of all time, otherwise you are troll. No one interpret music better then her. Her transisitons are fantastic, so hard, her combos're not muscled, not at all. She is exquisite. All of her programs are oryginal and different.One of their kind.Sorry for being sarcastic, but it is looks like this... I just find it weird how they treat it seriously, a matter of life or death.

 

[largeman]

Medvedeva does stand out in every dance video I've seen and even is quite impressive. Example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQiXTnfXNTk

That's brilliant. :thumbsup: I've always enjoyed seeing her dance in these videos and this is the best one yet. It's no secret that I don't like Zhenya's skating, but there's no denying she exudes charm and natural musicality and I do like her off-ice moves a lot.

 

[FSGMT]

Evgenia's team never manages to create a program as a whole. Each second of her program consists of individual and separate elements to gain the maximum amount of points. The beginning and the ending part to push the perfomance grade, the turns and leg raises to gain transition points, the frantic jump exits to gain GOE and so on...

I get the same impression, too, as opposed to Carolina's program (but I'm biased when I talk of her, of course) which looked very fluid and compact, even if less packed with transitions and music: everything seemed natural and coherent, not forced or frantic. Evgenia left me quite cold today, and I'd say that I join the group of those who think she was a bit overscored in many small ways: the step sequence GOE, for example, or the Performance mark (just because a program is clean doesn't automatically mean it's a great performance, too) and the Interpretation one, even the GOEs for the spins were a bit too generous for me. I think she looked quite stiff, she didn't complete most of her difficult moves and transitions properly as she usually does and she also looked a bit slower than usual (but I may be mistaken here). :scowl:

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I loved that!!!!!!

Fortunately for my side of the argument the PCS standards are in line with what I've been saying all along. They clearly use words and phrases like "oneness," "clarity of movement," "purpose," "intentionality," and "finesse." As I said I am an analytical person. I am well within the context of the system. Stop trying to minimize my argument by making it sound like I'm asking for something crazy.

Performance
Involvement of the skater/pair/couple physically, emotionally and intellectually as they deliver the intent of the music and composition. In evaluating the Performance, the following must be considered:
Physical, emotional and intellectual involvement and projection
Carriage and clarity of movement
Variety and contrast of movements and energy
Individuality / personality
Unison and “oneness”
Spatial awareness between partners – management of the distance between skaters and management of changes of hold (pair skating, ice dancing)
Composition
An intentionally developed and/or original arrangement of all types of movements according to the principles of musical phrase, space, pattern and structure. In evaluating the Composition, the following must be considered:

Purpose (idea, concept, vision, mood);
Pattern / ice coverage;
Multidimensional use of space and design of movements;
Phrase and form (movements and parts structured to match the musical phrase);
Originality of the composition.
Interpretation of the Music/Timing (Ice Dancing)
The personal, creative and genuine translation of the rhythm, character and content of the music to movement on ice. In evaluating the Interpretation of the Music(/Timing), the following must be considered:

Movement and steps in time to the music (timing)
Expression of the music’s character/feeling and rhythm, when clearly identifiable
Use of finesse to reflect the details and nuances of the music (Finesse is the skaters’ refined, artful manipulation of music details and nuances through movement. It is unique to the skater/skaters and demonstrates an inner feeling for the music and the composition. Nuances are the personal ways of bringing subtle variations to the intensity, tempo and dynamics of the music made by the composer and/or musicians.)

So then, all judges are crazy. I see your point.

 

[GGFan]

So then, all judges are crazy. I see your point.

Resorting to exaggeration now?!? My entire point is that I disagree with the judges on some things. I never called them crazy. As I mentioned earlier the system has standards. The judges are not following those standards and they are sometimes grading on a curve. That doesn't make for a huge scandal, as I think that placements are generally correct and I've rarely felt that anyone was robbed. That still doesn't change the fact that according to the standards they have set they are over scoring Medvedeva in some categories. I disagree with scores that every skater gets at some point or another, and that's the nature of the sport.