Backloading: What should ISU do?

[Tolstoj]

Do nothing.

This is not nearly as bad as it was in the frontloading era where there was literally no point to do a jump in the second half. Now there is the reward, but only Alina is attempting a full backloaded program in seniors, so this is not mainstream yet.

Is it a bad thing to penalise? No! I don't think everyone know exactly ISU's definition of balance.

I think it is more challenging to make a fully backloaded program look more interesting, especially in the free skate: the approach Eteri/Daniil did with Alina works for the most part because for the first half you have the choreography and the steps sequence to showcase what the skater is capable of, and then the jumps are timed with the music, so even though you have all of them in less than 2 minutes, they are more effective.

Though that program could be better and some of the backloaded programs they did for the juniors look more interesting to me. (Kostornaya's FS for instance)

Technically it is very difficult because you have to sell the program for the first 2 minutes without thinking about the jumps, and also it doesn't leave you time to recover from a fall, so in the end the reward should stay.

 

[mrrice]

There are plenty of girls who can backload. For example, there's no reason Wakaba cannot backload since she can do a 3Lz-3T late in the program. However, just because many skaters can backload doesn't mean their choreographer and coach would want them to do it.
Guess who's behind the full backload team? Eteri and her choreographer.
Most choreographer would not stamp their name on something so ridiculously unbalanced. Ask Philp Mills or Lori Nichols to create a fully back load programs, and they will slap you.

I think Rohene would agree. Jason's programs ARE backloaded but, they don't feel backloaded. I feel the same way about Max's new LP. There is certainly backloading but his new LP doesn't feel empty the way that Alina's does.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Most choreographer would not stamp their name on something so ridiculously unbalanced. Ask Philp Mills or Lori Nichols to create a fully back load programs, and they will slap you.

I'd question any choreographer whom I pay to create losing programs. Are the skaters trying to win competitions or make their choreographers happy?

 

[mrrice]

I'd question any choreographer whom I pay to create losing programs. Are the skaters trying to win competitions or make their choreographers happy?

Exactly.....I don't think the Choreographer has the final say on a program anyway. That would be up to the coach. If the coach wants an athlete's program with backloaded jumps, that's what the choreographer does or they find themselves out of a job....

 

[Tolstoj]

Exactly.....I don't think the Choreographer has the final say on a program anyway. That would be up to the coach. If the coach wants an athlete's program backloaded jumps, that's what the choreographer does or they find themselves out of a job....

I remember Philip Mils refused to work with Ashley because they wanted to change parts of his program, but to me Raf and Ashley were right and coaches and skaters are always right in this case.

Choreographers should work for the skater and should please the coach, instead of pretending to skate something you may not even like.

 

[Shayuki]

There are plenty of girls who can backload. For example, there's no reason Wakaba cannot backload since she can do a 3Lz-3T late in the program.

Most choreographer would not stamp their name on something so ridiculously unbalanced. Ask Philp Mills or Lori Nichols to create a fully back load programs, and they will slap you.

To the first point, you're wrong. It's not as easy as you think. You need to do every single jump in a row late in the program and after the step sequence - That's very different from doing a 3Lz-3T late in the program after having a long break since the last jump. I'll only believe that she can fully backload if she demonstrates that she can do that.

To the second point - That depends on the choreo. It's perfectly possible to have a "balanced"(a really stupid buzz word) program even with all 7 jumps backloaded.

 

[ask]

I'd question any choreographer whom I pay to create losing programs. Are the skaters trying to win competitions or make their choreographers happy?

I´d question any skaters who come to me asking for my help and my input. By that logic, Lori´s out of job.

 

[Eclair]

I remember Philip Mils refused to work with Ashley because they wanted to change parts of his program, but to me Raf and Ashley were right and coaches and skaters are always right in this case.

Choreographers should work for the skater and should please the coach, instead of pretending to skate something you may not even like.

Phillip Mills lost all my respect. Ashley wanted to try out other choreographers, too and he was publicly putting her down on twitter for that. Talking about childish-behavior ...

 

[Blades of Passion]

It's perfectly possible to have a "balanced"(a really stupid buzz word) program even with all 7 jumps backloaded.

Disagreed, jumps are part of the skating vocabulary, and a balanced program should be showing a decent amount of choreography inbetween jumps. When the first half of your program has no jumps, the stakes feel lower. It doesn't feel like any risk has been taken yet and thus the moves you're doing in that time are easier because you get to focus solely on them. Then in the next part of the program you just get to focus on jumps, without any longer stretches of choreography.

Within choreography the most natural usage of a jump is for it to be a release of tension or added statement onto a section of movement. This is why the "old school" Lutz setups were actually very effective, because there was a clear path of flight and intent shown by someone setting up for a Lutz; it created suspense and great release of emotion after completing the jump. It was a statement.

All of the different elements should ideally be weaved together. If you are splitting your program into two separate halves of "jumps" and "no jumps", then you are inherently not weaving together all of the different elements. It's unbalanced. It's like writing sentences without verbs, and then writing sentences without any direct objects. How effective would communication be if everyone spoke and wrote like that?

 

[tikse]

There are plenty of girls who can backload. For example, there's no reason Wakaba cannot backload since she can do a 3Lz-3T late in the program. However, just because many skaters can backload doesn't mean their choreographer and coach would want them to do it.
Guess who's behind the full backload team? Eteri and her choreographer.
Most choreographer would not stamp their name on something so ridiculously unbalanced. Ask Philp Mills or Lori Nichols to create a fully back load programs, and they will slap you.

Lolzie, Wakaba spends much of her program skating on two feet not for nothing. Otherwise she almost inevitably pops at least one jump. The same could be said about Honda. Anyway Higuchi aims to properly include 3A into her arsenal so there's no reason whatsoever for her to try backloading.

 

[Seren]

Disagreed, jumps are part of the skating vocabulary, and a balanced program should be showing a decent amount of choreography inbetween jumps. When the first half of your program has no jumps, the stakes feel lower. It doesn't feel like any risk has been taken yet and thus the moves you're doing in that time are easier because you get to focus solely on them. Then in the next part of the program you just get to focus on jumps, without any longer stretches of choreography.

Within choreography the most natural usage of a jump is for it to be a release of tension or added statement onto a section of movement. This is why the "old school" Lutz setups were actually very effective, because there was a clear path of flight and intent shown by someone setting up for a Lutz; it created suspense and great release of emotion after completing the jump. It was a statement.

All of the different elements should ideally be weaved together. If you are splitting your program into two separate halves of "jumps" and "no jumps", then you are inherently not weaving together all of the different elements. It's unbalanced. It's like writing sentences without verbs, and then writing sentences without any direct objects. How effective would communication be if everyone spoke and wrote like that?

Well said.

 

[Kittosuni]

Do people here really believe that some skaters simply dont' backload their routines because they are so concerned of "unbalanced" program? Right....

Pls don't treat these coaches, choreographers especially the skaters as idiots. The reason a lot of skaters don't do it because they simply can't.

These skaters have been skating most of their lives competing and trying to win and you tell me they don't want ++points that will make or break their career? Im honestly offended.

Backloading is no different from skaters sacrificing their bodies for quad jumps to collect points.

Just look at Kostner who is slowly moving her jumps at the second half of her FD.

Look at Medvedeva who moved only 1 jump to the second half of her program and visibly struggled and had to go back to her old layout.

Pls. people don't kid yourself. Its not easy.

-------------------------------------------------

Moving forward I expect ISU to come up with something regarding backloading.

Im pretty sure there will be some sort of deduction or restriction about it especially with the push of country organizations who less benefit from it. That's just life.

But also expect someone will always find loopholes of the rules and take it to their advantage.

Until then better pray that your favorite skater can keep up with the current trends or else you'll loose more sleeps going online defending why their freaking loosing

 

[Shayuki]

Disagreed, jumps are part of the skating vocabulary, and a balanced program should be showing a decent amount of choreography inbetween jumps. When the first half of your program has no jumps, the stakes feel lower. It doesn't feel like any risk has been taken yet and thus the moves you're doing in that time are easier because you get to focus solely on them. Then in the next part of the program you just get to focus on jumps, without any longer stretches of choreography.

Within choreography the most natural usage of a jump is for it to be a release of tension or added statement onto a section of movement. This is why the "old school" Lutz setups were actually very effective, because there was a clear path of flight and intent shown by someone setting up for a Lutz; it created suspense and great release of emotion after completing the jump. It was a statement.

All of the different elements should ideally be weaved together. If you are splitting your program into two separate halves of "jumps" and "no jumps", then you are inherently not weaving together all of the different elements. It's unbalanced. It's like writing sentences without verbs, and then writing sentences without any direct objects. How effective would communication be if everyone spoke and wrote like that?

You absolutely can have choreography between jumps even if every jump is right after one another. It just depends on how you are constructing the program and what themes you are using.

That stuff about sentences makes 0 sense. Let's talk about figure skating instead.

 

[Skatingcat]

I think they should stop rewarding when the jumps are during the program. Triple Triple at :30 seconds into the program or 3:30 seconds, the base value should be the same.

 

[Mathman]

Moving forward I expect ISU to come up with something regarding backloading.

Im pretty sure there will be some sort of deduction or restriction about it especially with the push of country organizations who less benefit from it. That's just life.

There is no reason at all to consider any deduction for or restriction on backloading. If the ISU wants skaters to cut back a little on this strategem, all they have to do is reduce the reward that they give skaters for doing it. :yes:

 

[zanadude]

I dont get why people freak out so much about backloading, or why isu should do anything.

There are very few skaters actually doing it, and i´m sure those 2-3 people can sort it out to be successful.

There once were very few people doing quad jumps. But those people would eventually force many others to do so. Even Jason Brown now feels compelled to fall or pop a jump in every free program just because everybody "has" to have quad to be taken seriously.

But of course, there's no reason to change anything until an actual problem exists, and there is no problem that I can see right now. If you don't like Zagitova's routines, you still have plenty of more balanced programs to choose from.

 

[rlopen]

It's the simplest thing...there should be no deduction for backloading itself. There is no problem for backloading...however, if you can do it (props to you not a lot of people can) and the program is built around that bonus, your Composition PCS score should be a -1 deduction. So, if people feel like you have a "perfect" Composition, you're really only getting a 9. Nothing too harmful, but you shouldn't be trying to backload unless you're 100 percent sure you can, and you should be putting some thought into whether it's worth it or not.

 

[Blades of Passion]

You absolutely can have choreography between jumps even if every jump is right after one another.

Yes, but not LONGER stretches of choreography. The amount of time between each of those jumps is inherently going to be much smaller when you are trying to do 7 jump elements in 2 minutes or less. There is something called "pacing" and a program loses it when you cram together so many jump elements.

That stuff about sentences makes 0 sense. Let's talk about figure skating instead.

No it doesn't make 0 sense. Language is composed of different elements. Nouns, verbs, adjectives, etc. Figure skating is its own language and the movements are all supposed to serve some kind of purpose, creating the picture and communication of the skater. Jumps are one of the elements within the language of figure skating, especially competitive singles figure skating. Again, when half your program has NO jumps and the other half of your program has ALL the jumps, then you are inherently leaving out one of the elements of the language. Look at these sentences, the first with no verbs, and the next with no direct objects:

Jane the store and pair of socks and home.

Jane went to and bought and then went.

The full sentence SHOULD be "Jane went to the store and bought a pair of socks and then went home." Look at how much it differs when you leave out either verbs or direct objects, how much less effective the communication becomes.

 

[dreamsk8]

I really don't care if a program is backloaded or frontloaded. I only care about if the program is artistically beautiful to the music and athletically strong to show the skill of the skater.

 

[Shayuki]

Yes, but not LONGER stretches of choreography. The amount of time between each of those jumps is inherently going to be much smaller when you are trying to do 7 jump elements in 2 minutes or less. There is something called "pacing" and a program loses it when you cram together so many jump elements.

Sure, maybe some longer stretches of choreography are towards the earlier parts of the program. But I also think you underestimate what you can actually do in between jumps.

I'd even argue that the jumps take the least time out of all elements(leaving most room for stuff in between them) and also that spins often have significantly less room for choreo in and out of them than jumps.