ISU proposals: Jumps, spin for 2024-25

[Mathman]

Technical elements, namely jumps and spins, are the support, a kind of skeleton of any performance. Remove that skeleton and you have a jellyfish, a shapeless pile of slime.

Well put. Now let's see if we can flesh out the skeleton and make a satisfying program out of it.

Michelle Kwan's last competitive performance (December, 2005) was the short program, choreographed by Tatianna Tarrasova, to "Totentanz." This Franz Liszt piece is about dead skeletons jumping up and dancing around. Her LP for the 2006 Olympics, had she been able to participate, was projected to be Rachmaninoff's Prelude in C sharp minor. The theme of the two programs together was "life and death." In the lively, driving Totentanz Michelle was supposed to be a bar-hopping fun-loving girl living it up. For the Rachmaninov she was in an art gallery soberly contemplating famous paintings of death.

I have often wondered if the audience would have perceived any of that from what was actually put on the ice.

 

[cailuj365]

GOE reductions:
CHOREOGRAPHIC ELEMENTS
Fall -5
Stumble -1 to -3
Does not correspond to the music -2 to -4
Loss of control/Lack of energy -1 to -3
Lack of connection between choreographic movements -2 to -3
Poor quality of movements/positions -1 to -3
Small pattern -1 to -3
Lack of creativity -1 to -3

Thank you! I would have given Ilia's ChSeq -2 or -3 based on this. I never understood why three small transitional elements were labeled as his ChSeq when his much more crowd-pleasing ending sequence was not. He/Shae-Lynn should have done a lot better there.


I just want advancement of everything. Again, to me, removing a jump(s) to make the PCS more balanced/relevant seems a bit artificial. At the very top, I think we have skaters who are already doing it all, and that's why they're at the top. It easily separates the podium from the rest. I do like the choreographic spin concept to see something new, though the judging will likely make as little sense as the current choreographic sequence judging.

Ugh, Joubert. Such a whiner. That whole period, just boring to me in every way. Patrick really put men's skating back in it for me. He had everything. Excellent example of best tech of his time + best bladework and movement + great audience connection.

 

[4everchan]

Thank you! I would have given Ilia's ChSeq -2 or -3 based on this. I never understood why three small transitional elements were labeled as his ChSeq when his much more crowd-pleasing ending sequence was not. He/Shae-Lynn should have done a lot better there.


I just want advancement of everything. Again, to me, removing a jump(s) to make the PCS more balanced/relevant seems a bit artificial. At the very top, I think we have skaters who are already doing it all, and that's why they're at the top. It easily separates the podium from the rest. I do like the choreographic spin concept to see something new, though the judging will likely make as little sense as the current choreographic sequence judging.

Ugh, Joubert. Such a whiner. That whole period, just boring to me in every way. Patrick really put men's skating back in it for me. He had everything. Excellent example of best tech of his time + best bladework and movement + great audience connection.

I hear you. Joubert lost me in 2008. But he had tons of other fans, so he didn't care

Regarding removing the jumping pass... there are two reasons why i think it's okay.

1) It will rebalance the TES and PCS. If we take Ilia as a an example, his TES can reach 130... PCS can only go up to 100 and most skaters really cannot get there... at best they get low 90s. So there is a big gap in the value of jumping passes versus PCS. If the ISU were to refactor PCS to 120 for instance, it's still the top quadsters who would earn those scores so it doesn't really do much. By removing a jumping pass, it doesn't solve it all but it does lower the BV by an average of ten points which makes things more even.

2) I agree with what you say about Patrick : that's also why I liked him so much. Good balance between technical content and skating skills. His connection to music for me is special as well, felt with the entire body. Patrick mentioned that he struggled a lot with the idea of raising his BV. He did add a third quad. At one point he was trying 3 quads and 2 3A... which was very far from the 2 quad and 1 3axel he used to include. He mentioned that adding the big jumps was taking away from the choreography. The skate skate skate jump thingie

So in that sense, maybe the 15-20 extra seconds earned by skaters not having to put in an extra jump will contribute to more balanced programs.


Also, with the skaters so focused on the jumps lately, there are less skaters doing very taxing choreographic sequence and step sequences. They are just too demanding physically. So either they save it at the end, or right after the big four first jumps or they play relatively safe. Patrick wasn't cautious with his step sequences. I miss the time when there were two of them in the LP. I miss the one foot sequence requirement or even the definite straight line sequence. They created interesting choreographic moments. The difficult turns and steps and transition requirements right now just make the step sequences look weird and most of them are a wash now.

 

[TontoK]

I feel like this thread has come back around to the old question,"Is it sport or is it studio craft." I would compare a figure skating program to a piece of jewelry. The jumps are the diamonds. It is straightforward to determine their value based on carats, clarity, color and cut. Other elements (spins. etc.) are the lesser complementary stones -- very pretty, we would not want to disparage them.

Then there is the setting. Evaluation is more subjective, but without it all we have is a small pile of rocks.

Agree, but more. It's also evolving into a recurring angst I've noticed during 50 years of fandom. "This young upstart is maximizing his/her strengths to beat MY favorites, and it's just not right. We need to overhaul the rules so this can't happen."

Despite current events, which often seem like the only ones that count, it's nothing new. Young talent frequently employ superior technical excellence to break through and climb the ranks, and old guard fans don't like it. Heck, go back and watch Michelle Kwan's early US Nationals - conventional wisdom was that all those triple jumps were just masking a lack of real talent. I recall complaints that it was unsportmanlike of Nathan Chen to compete jump elements that weren't in his Planned Program, and that he hadn't telegraphed to his competitors in the run-through.

 

[4everchan]

Agree, but more. It's also evolving into a recurring angst I've noticed during 50 years of fandom. "This young upstart is maximizing his/her strengths to beat MY favorites, and it's just not right. We need to overhaul the rules so this can't happen."

it's not always about that and definitely not for me. My favourites have long retired. As a matter of fact, I was a fan of two of these young upstarts that revolutionized skating in the last decades (Chan and Chen, in their own respective way). It's about witnessing 24 LPs at worlds that didn't have much choreographic content. It's hours and hours and hours of two foot skating. If you are into crossovers, then maybe you like it but to me, it was very bland.

 

[TontoK]

it's not always about that and definitely not for me. My favourites have long retired. As a matter of fact, I was a fan of two of these young upstarts that revolutionized skating in the last decades (Chan and Chen, in their own respective way). It's about witnessing 24 LPs at worlds that didn't have much choreographic content. It's hours and hours and hours of two foot skating. If you are into crossovers, then maybe you like it but to me, it was very bland.

When have you ever truly enjoyed 24 long programs in a competition? I never have.

The current situation isn't very much different than it has always been. Usually there are 3-6 top competitors, most of which might win on a given day if all goes well, then another 5 or so (if you're lucky) who do reasonably well, and then a whole bunch of forgettable programs, perhaps with an exception or two thrown in - again if you're lucky.

Flights of skaters delivering choreographic gems? Please. People are pining for days that never were.

 

[4everchan]

When have you ever truly enjoyed 24 long programs in a competition? I never have.

I used to enjoy at least many more than 1 or 2

The current situation isn't very much different than it has always been. Usually there are 3-6 top competitors, most of which might win on a given day if all goes well, then another 5 or so (if you're lucky) who do reasonably well, and then a whole bunch of forgettable programs, perhaps with an exception or two thrown in - again if you're lucky.

I think basic skating skills and dedication to having a real program are lost in the quad frenzy.

Flights of skaters delivering choreographic gems? Please. People are pining for days that never were.

I disagree.

 

[Mathman]

When have you ever truly enjoyed 24 long programs in a competition? I never have.

As for me, I often enjoy maybe 12 out of 24 programs, top to bottom, in a competition.

I have to admit, though, that I am more likely to enjoy 12 short programs out of 24 than longs.

 

[TontoK]

As for me, I often enjoy maybe 12 out of 24 programs, top to bottom, in a competition.

I have to admit, though, that I am more likely to enjoy 12 short programs out of 24 than longs.

The thing I like about short programs is that the music tends to be more varied and interesting, which makes the programs more enjoyable. Not always, but frequently enough to be noticeable.

You'd think that the additional length of a LP would lend itself to more "pow" music and complex story-telling... but it all just drones on after a while.

 

[4everchan]

The thing I like about short programs is that the music tends to be more varied and interesting, which makes the programs more enjoyable. Not always, but frequently enough to be noticeable.

I am not so sure it's more varied and interesting in the SP music wise... but I guess that there are less tragic cuts needed.

You'd think that the additional length of a LP would lend itself to more "pow" music and complex story-telling... but it all just drones on after a while.

The long program is longer 4m30s compared to the 2m40 seconds of the Sp but is it really much longer considering the extra 4 jumping passes (2 of which are usually combo/seq -one of which may be a 3 jump sequence...) and the added choreo sequence.

the 1m50 extra doesn't look like much more time to me to create anything once the required elements are met... On top of that, the added length also means that there is a need for a "break" moment... otherwise the skater just die in there... Skating at full speed for 4m30secs is not something a lot of people do... except speed skaters (that's about 3000 meter in long track)

 

[icewhite]

Agree, but more. It's also evolving into a recurring angst I've noticed during 50 years of fandom. "This young upstart is maximizing his/her strengths to beat MY favorites, and it's just not right. We need to overhaul the rules so this can't happen."

Despite current events, which often seem like the only ones that count, it's nothing new. Young talent frequently employ superior technical excellence to break through and climb the ranks, and old guard fans don't like it. Heck, go back and watch Michelle Kwan's early US Nationals - conventional wisdom was that all those triple jumps were just masking a lack of real talent. I recall complaints that it was unsportmanlike of Nathan Chen to compete jump elements that weren't in his Planned Program, and that he hadn't telegraphed to his competitors in the run-through.

I think it's so dismissive of a real interest in aspects of a sport when people make statements like you do here - blaming it all on fans who don't see their favourites winning. Well, in this case for instance I think it's the other way around - there are many skaters I don't dislike personally, I just have a problem with their programs and their focus on skills I do not want to become the one and all. With different programs they could win my heart. It has happened often enough before, someone changes their style, my attitude towards them changes.

Apart from that I also very often prefer the short programs from my favourite skaters to their free skates and wish those skaters had long programs on the level of their shorts ones.

There definitely is a problem with the music that many skaters pick for the long - it is often very limited and lacks nuances and changes - but that is not a wonder, the music is picked to serve the technical requirements best and detailed nuances are just very difficult to express with these requirements.

 

[Mathman]

Scientific research shows that the average human has an attention span of 8.25 seconds. Goldfish, 9 seconds. In 2000, humans (10.3 seconds) beat goldfish, but that was before the Internet.

No wonder short programs seem to hang together more coherently than long programs.

 

[4everchan]

Scientific research shows that the average human has an attention span of 8.25 seconds. Goldfish, 9 seconds. In 2000, humans (10.3 seconds) beat goldfish, but that was before the Internet.

No wonder short programs seem to hang together more coherently than long programs.

Yet concert pianists play 90 minutes recitals, memorized and with the utmost focus on an infinite series of very small but precise movements. I think I am able to focus for 4m30secs LPs if there is something worth my interest.

 

[Mathman]

Yet concert pianists play 90 minutes recitals, memorized and with the utmost focus on an infinite series of very small but precise movements.

True, true. A Haydn symphony lasts 20 minutes or so, but it holds the auditor’s attention throughout.

The average length of the songs on the latest Taylor Swift album is 3 minutes, 26 seconds (I can’t believe I went to the trouble of looking that up! )

Mahler’s Symphony #5 is about 70 minutes long. Virtue and Moir skated to 4 and a half minutes of it in 2010. I used to play a little game where I searched for substantial works of music that were exactly 4 and a half minutes long and sent them to may favorite skaters so they could present the composer’s full musical statement in a competitive program. (No one ever took me up on it, though. )

 

[TontoK]

The average length of the songs on the latest Taylor Swift album is 3 minutes, 26 seconds (I can’t believe I went to the trouble of looking that up! )

Neither can I. Thank goodness it's too short to be skated as a LP, although it raises the disturbing inevitability that some misguided soul is bound to skate a program to a Taylor Swift medley sooner or later. And once the ice is broken, the copycats will soon follow.

 

[cheerknithanson]

Neither can I. Thank goodness it's too short to be skated as a LP, although it raises the disturbing inevitability that some misguided soul is bound to skate a program to a Taylor Swift medley sooner or later. And once the ice is broken, the copycats will soon follow.

Emo/alternative rock/pop-punk/that umbrella of music has some great tunes to skate to imo.

 

[Mathman]

Emo/alternative rock/pop-punk/that umbrella of music has some great tunes to skate to imo.

I always thought that the "They Might Be Giants" catalogue form the 1980s had some possibilities.

 

[el henry]

I only know Taylor Swift because of my football fandom, could not identify one of her songs...

but I would rather watch 87 Taylor Swift programs than one more emo sadboi for the junior men. Or POTO or les Miz or our favorite warhorses.

(It doesn't hurt that what I have learned of Taylor as a person, I like, and as someone whose football fandom roots run deep and long, I could care less if the Dads, Brads and Chads are offended by her 15 seconds onscreen during the game).

 

[Rebecca Moose]

I am not so sure it's more varied and interesting in the SP music wise... but I guess that there are less tragic cuts needed.

The long program is longer 4m30s compared to the 2m40 seconds of the Sp but is it really much longer considering the extra 4 jumping passes (2 of which are usually combo/seq -one of which may be a 3 jump sequence...) and the added choreo sequence.

the 1m50 extra doesn't look like much more time to me to create anything once the required elements are met... On top of that, the added length also means that there is a need for a "break" moment... otherwise the skater just die in there... Skating at full speed for 4m30secs is not something a lot of people do... except speed skaters (that's about 3000 meter in long track)

all long programs are only 4 minutes, not 4:30 -- this was reduced for mens and pairs several years ago.

all the isu has to do is to eliminate a jumping pass and make one spin and the footwork a choreographic element (no levels) and long programs will be more watchable. too much junk crammed into 4 minutes right now with cut and paste choreography to boring music

 

[4everchan]

all long programs are only 4 minutes, not 4:30 -- this was reduced for mens and pairs several years ago.

thanks, that makes my argument even stronger... if the LP is 4 minutes, and the SP 2:40... than simple as that, how can skaters add significant choreo when they have 4 more jumping passes to throw in there and a sequence

all the isu has to do is to eliminate a jumping pass and make one spin and the footwork a choreographic element (no levels) and long programs will be more watchable. too much junk crammed into 4 minutes right now with cut and paste choreography to boring music

agreed