2018 Olympic Figure Skating Mens FS

[xeyra]

Thank you. I know someone would know. But 15th to 6th and 12th to 5th are still not 17th to 5th. 15th to 6 is 11 places, 12th to 5th is 11 places. 17th to 5th is 12 places. And Lillehammer was 6.0 system, correct? I don't know how to compare the two.

11 or 12 places.... it's not a big difference. What was impressive with Nathan was the 1st place in the FS, not how many placements he rose compared to Mao Asada or Mai Mihara.

 

[Miss Ice]

Why does IF only apply to Chen?

IF Chen skated his SP, then in the same universe Hanyu would also skate his planned 5 quad program and Fernandez would skate cleanly so those two would still win by a large margin. We are talking speculatives here after all.

Doesn't seem like alot of ppl here took formal logic classes. You can't cherry pick factors and set up a straw man scenario.

The IF only applies to Nathan because he is the only one to date who actually pulled off a program with 5 clean quads. (And Vincent, I guess?) Have we seen Hanyu/Shoma/Fernandez do 5 clean triples in the FS? And, to do an SP with 4Lz, 4F, and 3A that Nathan did in one of his GP's? If we take Nathan's highest BV SP nad FS, he is factually unbeatable. It's not even theoretical or speculative. His BV is just that much bigger - and he has actually pulled it off several times before, unlike others who have only proposed a similar BV.

And, I do aknowledge that he needs to step up his game in performance/interpretation. But it would be denial to say that his BV is not the highest out of all the men.

 

[xeyra]

The IF only applies to Nathan because he is the only one to date who actually pulled of a program with 5 clean triples. (And Vincent, I guess?) Have we seen Hanyu/Shoma/Fernandez do 5 clean triples in the FS? And, to do an SP with 4Lz, 4F, and 3A that Nathan did in one of his GP's? If we take Nathan's highest BV SP nad FS, he is factually unbeatable. It's not even theoretical or speculative. His BV is just that much bigger - and he has actually pulled it off several times before, unlike others who have only proposed a similar BV.


And, I do aknowledge that he needs to step up his game in performance/interpretation. But it would be denial to say that his BV is not the highest out of all the men.

They don't need it...?

Name	Score	Event	Layout	BV	BV Difference	TES
Yuzuru Hanyu	223.20	2017 World Championships	4: 4Lo 2x4S 4T	103.43	11.68	126.12
Yuzuru Hanyu	219.48	2015–16 Grand Prix Final	3: 4S 2x4T	95.19	19.92	120.92
Javier Fernández	216.41	2016 World Championships	3: 2x4S 4T	94.73	20.38	118.05
Yuzuru Hanyu	216.07	2015 NHK Trophy	3: 4S 2x4T	95.79	19.32	118.87
Nathan Chen	215.08	2018 Winter Olympics	6: 4Lz 2x4F 2x4T 4S	115.11	0	127.64

Disclaimer: Please don't think I'm hating on Nathan here; I just like data.

Edited to add TES.

 

[yexiu]

Has anyone made a "May the 4th (place) be with you, Boyang" joke yet?

geez, i feel so bad for finding this funny.

 

[xeyra]

The greatest fallacy of many discussions about Nathan here and in the media is that everyone else must scramble to catch up to his technical prowess... when the contrary applies. He needs the technical prowess to catch up to skaters who outscore him with half his quad count. Which is pretty much how Boyang began in 2015, before he curtailed his quad expansion to actually work on his basics.

 

[Miss Ice]

They don't need it...?

Name	Score	Event	Layout	BV	BV Difference
Yuzuru Hanyu	223.20	2017 World Championships	4: 4Lo 4S 2x4T	103.43	11.68
Yuzuru Hanyu	219.48	2015–16 Grand Prix Final	3: 4S 2x4T	95.19	19.92
Javier Fernández	216.41	2016 World Championships	3: 2x4S 4T	94.73	20.38
Yuzuru Hanyu	216.07	2015 NHK Trophy	3: 4S 2x4T	95.79	19.32
Nathan Chen	215.08	2018 Winter Olympics	6: 4Lz 2x4F 2x4T 4S	115.11	0

Disclaimer: Please don't think I'm hating on Nathan here; I just like data.

Yeah, because they had the PCS cushion. Their TES all have a lower BV than Nathan's - his was a record TES. I appreciate the other guys and really love Hanyu's musicality and effortless jumps, but I also think that Nathan is a total boss for bringing the bar up technically. I'm excited to see his artistic growth and I'm actually kind of glad that he didn't go clean in the SP and win the OGM since now he has the opportunity to develop artistically like Hanyu. Super excited for the Worlds

 

[xeyra]

Yeah, because they had the PCS cushion. Their TES all have a lower BV than Nathan's - his was a record TES. I appreciate the other guys and really love Hanyu's musicality and effortless jumps, but I also think that Nathan is a total boss for bringing the bar up technically. I'm excited to see his artistic growth and I'm actually kind of glad that he didn't go clean in the SP and win the OGM since now he has the opportunity to develop artistically like Hanyu. Super excited for the Worlds

You're confusing BV with TES. You know what Yuzuru's TES with 3 quads was at GPF? 120+. The TES difference with Nathan's 6-quad FS that scored 127 TES? Less than 7 points against a difference of almost 20 points in BV.
The difference in scores isn't in PCS alone. It's in GOE.

 

[ChefAnt]

Thank you. I know someone would know. But 15th to 6th and 12th to 5th are still not 17th to 5th. 15th to 6 is 11 places, 12th to 5th is 11 places. 17th to 5th is 12 places. And Lillehammer was 6.0 system, correct? I don't know how to compare the two.

They were all impressive in their own right. And the 6.0 system is harder to climb than pure numbers because it was about placement not your score kinda like the team event now. By placing 12th in the short Kurt got 6 points and then in the free he was 3rd so he got 3 points for a 9 point total. Lowest total wins. In the new system your placement is almost arbitrary since it’s your points that mattered. Nathan was at 17th but between 7th and 17th, the spread wasn’t even 10 points which is less than a quad. So it’s somewhat easier in the new system to move up.

 

[yexiu]

He'll go. His sense of duty will want to make sure Japan gets 3 spots for 2019 in Japan..

exactly what I am afraid of. I hope he thinks long term whether is for himself or japan. If his injury get to the point of too serious to heal, then nobody's gonna carry Japan for the upcoming years. I know they see potential in Shoma, but imo his techniques are far from what Yuzuru can produce.

 

[charlotte14]

Yeah, because they had the PCS cushion. Their TES all have a lower BV than Nathan's - his was a record TES. I appreciate the other guys and really love Hanyu's musicality and effortless jumps, but I also think that Nathan is a total boss for bringing the bar up technically. I'm excited to see his artistic growth and I'm actually kind of glad that he didn't go clean in the SP and win the OGM since now he has the opportunity to develop artistically like Hanyu. Super excited for the Worlds

Since when TES = BV lol
And PCS gap is real because Nathan has stiff knee, weak edge and does not project as well as other guys. Oh and his programs have 2 foot skating most of the time so...

 

[Panpie]

Shhhh, what ifs only function when it comes to speculating about Nathan winning. No one else is allowed to have what ifs too.

LOL! Too funny and also too true.

 

[Miss Ice]

Skating scores are not just based on BV and TES.

Keep stretching. The amount of stretch I've seen here among Chen fans would give the White House PR a run for its money.

Some of the "arguments" made here makes me think certain posters don't understand how skating math works. Or how math works.

I think sometimes you shouldn't make assumptions like these about people online, especially people with degrees in the field you are so bravely berating them for. Although to be fair, arithmetic was never as strong of a suit for me as partial differential equations and complex analysis. But, carry on.

I'm just talking about TES base value. I know there's GOE and all that, but I'm just giving credit to Nathan to pushing the possible TES boundaries. And I already admitted he has tons of room for improvement artistically and in the GOE area (jump landings, transitions out of jumps, etc). That is why it's a good thing he did not OGM, since we will see much more from him in the future. And that's really exciting.

 

[charlotte14]

I think sometimes you shouldn't make assumptions like these about people online, especially people with degrees in the field you are so bravely berating them for. Although to be fair, arithmetic was never as strong of a suit for me as partial differential equations and complex analysis. But, carry on.

I'm just talking about TES base value. I know there's GOE and all that, but I'm just giving credit to Nathan to pushing the possible TES boundaries. And I already admitted he has tons of room for improvement artistically and in the GOE area (jump landings, transitions out of jumps, etc). That is why it's a good thing he did not OGM, since we will see much more from him in the future. And that's really exciting.

The point is, Nathan wants it fast and right this year and there is this thing you can not rush. Hence Boyang stayed with 4 quads, Shoma stayed with 4 quads. They turned their intention on polishing their programs and perfomance instead.

The media mistook that more quads means winning but they do not get quads = risks. And quads without good foundation of SS, TR and PE... are not stable.

Just because he placed above better skaters (yes they're litterally better skaters with better SS, TR and all) than him who did not peak at smaller competitons does not mean he can win over these guys at the biggest competitions when they all turn on their A game.

 

[Miss Ice]

The point is, Nathan wants it fast and right this year and there is this thing you can not rush. Hence Boyang stayed with 4 quads, Shoma stayed with 4 quads. They turned their intention on polishing their programs and perfomance instead.

The media mistook that more quads means winning but they do not get quads = risks. And quads without good foundation of SS, TR and PE... are not stable.

Just because he place above better skaters (yes they're litterally better skaters with better SS, TR and all) than him who did not peak at smaller competitons does not mean he can win over these guys at the biggest competitions when they all turn on their A game.

I agree. That is why it's a good thing he will have more time to develop artistry and maturity as a skater, outside of jumps.

 

[Feline Feeder]

Hmm. I just joined here, and I'm surprised to see how unhappy some people are. I actually thought it was one of the best nights of skating I'd ever seen, with fair judging, excellent performances, tons of clean quads, top artistry from the artists, and probably the right medal going to the right person. I might have switched Javier and Shoma's medals, but I didn't find it egregiously awful.

Hoping the ice dancing and ladies events are as good.

 

[Interspectator]

Hmm. I just joined here, and I'm surprised to see how unhappy some people are. I actually thought it was one of the best nights of skating I'd ever seen, with fair judging, excellent performances, tons of clean quads, top artistry from the artists, and probably the right medal going to the right person. I might have switched Javier and Shoma's medals, but I didn't find it egregiously awful.

Hoping the ice dancing and ladies events are as good.

Don't mind the tail-end of these threads. Only the ones who want to debate the finer points of wording and judging to the tenths of a point stay on to discuss or argue about it. A fun time was had by all.

 

[cheerio2]

They don't need it...?

Yeah, this. Hanyu's 4 quad layout with the 4Lo at Worlds 2017 is more than enough tech to hold off all comers, because that layout allows him to repeat the 3A, and the perfect 3A with +3 GOE that Hanyu easily executes is worth the same as a quad. So Hanyu actually has the value of 6 quads in that layout. Of course, that still means that the actual 6 quad jumper has the advantage of an extra 3A over Hanyu's 3L, but that's only a difference of 2.5 points.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Hmm. I just joined here, and I'm surprised to see how unhappy some people are. I actually thought it was one of the best nights of skating I'd ever seen, with fair judging, excellent performances, tons of clean quads, top artistry from the artists, and probably the right medal going to the right person. I might have switched Javier and Shoma's medals, but I didn't find it egregiously awful.

Hoping the ice dancing and ladies events are as good.

I’m with you!!! It was a great night for the sport and it’s fans. I posted the medal ceremony a few pages back. If you didn’t see it check it out and prepare to be all smiley

https://viuly.io/video/og2018-medal-ceremony-men-206409

 

[reneerose]

He'll go. His sense of duty will want to make sure Japan gets 3 spots for 2019 in Japan..

Do they even need Yuzu to go to Worlds? I would think he already secured 1 of the Japan spots by winning the Gold and therefore getting an automatic bye. Yuzu needs to heal.

 

[dalenofff]

They don't need it...?

Name	Score	Event	Layout	BV	BV Difference
Yuzuru Hanyu	223.20	2017 World Championships	4: 4Lo 2x4S 4T	103.43	11.68
Yuzuru Hanyu	219.48	2015–16 Grand Prix Final	3: 4S 2x4T	95.19	19.92
Javier Fernández	216.41	2016 World Championships	3: 2x4S 4T	94.73	20.38
Yuzuru Hanyu	216.07	2015 NHK Trophy	3: 4S 2x4T	95.79	19.32
Nathan Chen	215.08	2018 Winter Olympics	6: 4Lz 2x4F 2x4T 4S	115.11	0

Disclaimer: Please don't think I'm hating on Nathan here; I just like data.

the correct way to look at that would be to look at BV and TES score. not the total score where pcs is a factor into it. the other 2 have the PCS score of being skating longer, just like the old day....