2018-19 U.S. Men’s figure skating

[tosca]

I like Vincent a lot. His jumps were under. He is consistently called on it so he needs to fix it. Perception is everything. People can complain, his coaches can prop him up but until he fixes it the tech panel is not going to give him credit.

Satoko is not a U.S. man so maybe if you'd like to talk about her UR you can do it in the appropriate thread.

I was just using her as an example of tech callers not being inconsistent in their calls (in one competition I might add). Mirai is not a US man and I mentioned her as well.

Thank you.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

What you feel like doesn't matter. The rule is thirty seconds. I just went back and timed it. Being generous and starting when the announcer finished his name, he still took 33 seconds to get into position.

The tech panel called what they saw. I saw what they saw. Not the same angle, obviously, but all of the calls they made were very obvious in real time, and the slow mo was not flattering.

As always, it is important that URs are called strictly. Leniency not only does the skater who is URing no favours in the long term, it is a slap in the face to the skaters who have put in the blood sweat and tears to do their jumps correctly.

Lol, well everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Some people have *felt like* in the past that their favourite skater deserves higher PCS from the judges for improvements they've made --- but that doesn't matter, either.

And good on you for going back to verify Vincent's deductions - some people just assume right from the get-go that every jump of his is UR and that de facto he deserves to be hit hard with every deduction/tech call in the book. Thank you for always giving him a fair shake, karne.

 

[evasorange]

I’m convinced Vincent made some higher up mad or something. Going from last years nationals free skate where he received only 3 ur calls and 87 pcs to this whipping from the judges at home is very strange. I mean I know they aren’t the most reliable commentators but Tara and Johnny said last night that six out of his seven jumps were under review! I’m very curious to see how he will be judged at his next Grand Prix. Surely the final is not an option for him now.

 

[snowflake]

I’m so sad for Vincent working hard on the artistic side, performing 4-level spins, but having jump troubles that his coaches don’t seem to acknowledge. I thought Christine Krall was the one who would succeed in helping him. Anyway, I'm sure Vincent will ponder and act, sooner or later.

 

[century2009]

(I assume it is ok now to post, because confused about the rule.)

His quad jumps were suspect and that 3axel even in real time and the slow-mo did not help. And people talk about many camera angles for the judges, that will hurt Vincent more.

The new rule is much harsher now with underrotation, and you cant do close to quarter now.

And this unfortunately, Vincent cant get away with now.

He has built up a reputation since his junior years as an underrotator, so his team never fix this problem.

Now it is coming to bit them. And not trying to be mean to him because I like him, but he and his team have known this and not caring.

I dont think Tom Z does a good job technically as he seems to ignore this with Vincent and his other students.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I’m so sad for Vincent working hard on the artistic side, performing 4-level spins, but having jump troubles that his coaches don’t seem to acknowledge. I thought Christine Krall was the one who would succeed in helping him. Anyway, I'm sure Vincent will ponder and act, sooner or later.

I think Vincent is fuily aware of his UR issues -- I would imagine he looked at his 2018 Worlds FS protocol for example.

Just because a skater keeps getting UR issues or edge calls or whatever doesn't mean they aren't trying to fix it. After all, Vincent's first quad lutz in his freeskate was totally clean, and he's had his other quads ratified on many occasions (e.g. his clean SP from 2018 Worlds), so it's not like he's incapable of doing these jumps properly and sufficiently rotated. The new rule of 1/4 being still UR doesn't help his cause, but he is still able to do these fully rotated - he just needs to do so consistently, and have the stamina to do so (e.g. his 2nd quad lutz). But yes, it's nice to see his artistic side has developed nicely too.

 

[narcissa]

I think Vincent is fuily aware of his UR issues -- I would imagine he looked at his 2018 Worlds FS protocol for example.

Maybe, but his instagram posts seem to indicate otherwise.

Seems like when you get a reputation of UR you will never get the benefit of the doubt ever again, and there's only so much the USFSA can do to control the judges and technical panel at an international event even if it's on home soil.

I can't imagine this isn't something they thought about when deciding to put 6 quads in a free skate before he was ready but ... maybe getting to Pyeongchang was worth it.

 

[1111bm]

I am a bit confused by the outrage at Vincent’s scores.

So I took a closer look at his jumps and I would say that possibly 1, at the most 2 of the UR calls throughout both programs were questionable.
I am undecided on those two, because in these cases it’s exactly that one decisive frame that is missing in the videos.

But no one seems to have noticed that he also URd one of his -3T and possibly the -3F too, but didn’t get a call on those.
(and btw, I also recall seeing one UR and even one downgrade at USIC that didn't get called, so if you ask me, he does indeed get away with some of them)

I had also watched some of those fancam videos that were kindly shared by viewers from SA practice, and I remember when watching Vincent’s FS run-through, that it was very noticeable that most of his jumps seemed more or less UR, even from that distance mind you.

So to me it really looks like it's still an ongoing struggle for him and not just bad reputation.

While many of Vincent's carrots were deserved, I truly felt he was robbed -- especially with that late start deduction (I feel like the first skater in a flight should get a bit of leeway with having to start right after the warm up).
Not sure who he ticked off on the tech panel, but it's like the tech panel went after him on everything, including levels.

Nathan's programs this year... (...) ...and he wasn't even overscored, and the tech panel still scrutinized him (I mean, the reigning US/World champ at his home Grand Prix gets lowered levels and tech calls)

Well exactly, when I took a look at the protocols, I noticed that many skaters got a few lowered levels, so yes the judging was rather strict this time, but I'd argue that the panel was consistent in its strictness.

Not sure how the deduction for time violation is too harsh or unfair or means someone is targeting Vincent. This is something that has happened to Shoma too, at last year’s GPF, and he is clearly a favourite of the judges/panels.

 

[DanseMacabre]

I am a bit confused by the outrage at Vincent’s scores.

Part of it is that sometimes Vincent's jumps look under without actually being under because of his technique on the landing. The way he lands high up on the blade (around the toepick) and his tendency to have a bit of a lazy foot on the landing (he doesn't always "stick it" even when he's landing a fully rotating jump) means that he kicks up a lot of snow and there's a bit of movement of the foot but it's not necessarily an underrotation.

Vincent absolutely did deserve some of the UR calls from SA but there were one or two jumps that honestly looked all the way around to me both in real time and in slow motion.

 

[truthbooth]

We can debate the validity of the URs all day but the fact that Vincent missed out on his first career GP medal due to a late start is

 

[karne]

Lol, well everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Some people have *felt like* in the past that their favourite skater deserves higher PCS from the judges for improvements they've made --- but that doesn't matter, either.

Cute, but PCS is subjective and there are few fixed rules for it. A skater who has made obvious improvements should be rewarded but isn't because everyone from the fans to his own federation had boxed him as the ex-hockey-player-jumper, and those are not acceptable to go above 80 except on rare, skate-of-life occasions, apparently.

But the time violation rule is completely objective. You take position in less than 30 seconds, or you get a penalty.

And good on you for going back to verify Vincent's deductions - some people just assume right from the get-go that every jump of his is UR and that de facto he deserves to be hit hard with every deduction/tech call in the book. Thank you for always giving him a fair shake, karne.

I prefer to do so because then it's an egg on the face of the people claiming the skater was hard-done by or there was a consipracy. I also went back and timed Hanyu's time violation from Worlds 2017, too, and I've been known to time programs to prove to people that no, X skater really did stuff up.

I’m convinced Vincent made some higher up mad or something. Going from last years nationals free skate where he received only 3 ur calls and 87 pcs to this whipping from the judges at home is very strange.

You do realise that Nationals is only US judges whereas Skate America was in front of an international panel, right? Also, that 87 PCS was a disgrace and pure Nationals scoring. Additionally, the fact that he was called for four URs at Nationals, where the calling is known to be lenient, should have been a sign! If they call you out at US Nats you know it must be bad.

And are you forgetting the stop off in Milan with the 7 URs in the FS there?

I am a bit confused by the outrage at Vincent’s scores.

I am a LOT confused.

and his tendency to have a bit of a lazy foot on the landing (he doesn't always "stick it" even when he's landing a fully rotating jump)

Where has this bit of PR spin come from? Because this is the second time I've seen it used and it's annoying me already. It's almost like an excuse. "Oh, he's being called UR because he has a lazy foot."

- - - Updated - - -

We can debate the validity of the URs all day but the fact that Vincent missed out on his first career GP medal due to a late start is

It is his own fault.

The rule's been 30 seconds for a long time. Everyone knows it or should at this level. They have a giant clock on the jumbotron counting it down. There's really no excuse to be taking your position later than 30 seconds.

 

[snowflake]

We can debate the validity of the URs all day but the fact that Vincent missed out on his first career GP medal due to a late start is

yes tough... always learning hwell:

 

[DanseMacabre]

Where has this bit of PR spin come from? Because this is the second time I've seen it used and it's annoying me already. It's almost like an excuse. "Oh, he's being called UR because he has a lazy foot."

It's not PR spin nor is it an excuse. It's from my own two eyeballs and twenty years of skating experience. It's what I've observed in his landings. To be clear: I don't think it's good, clean technique--it's just a different issue from a straightforward UR--and I think it's something to be worked on though it's not something that can be easily solved since it's such a foundational thing. We can disagree on his UR calls (and again, I think most were fair but there were two I would have called clean) but there's no need for rudeness.

 

[oatmella]

Vincent was injured at worlds - so it seems a bit unfair to use that as an example for his URs.

I’m wondering if he should work with a jump specialist. But isn’t Tom Z supposed to be one ? Would working with someone like Alex O help? Though it’s not like Vincent doesn’t have enough coaches already.

Vincent has improved since last season - spins, SS and performance quality - and he has great programs.

I don’t think he’s unaware of what he needs to improve on. He’s also grown since last season, which I assume would make quads more challenging.

 

[Mrs. P]

It's not PR spin nor is it an excuse. It's from my own two eyeballs and twenty years of skating experience. It's what I've observed in his landings. To be clear: I don't think it's good, clean technique--it's just a different issue from a straightforward UR--and I think it's something to be worked on though it's not something that can be easily solved since it's such a foundational thing. We can disagree on his UR calls (and again, I think most were fair but there were two I would have called clean) but there's no need for rudeness.

I mentioned this regarding Satoko elsewhere, but I also think it applies to Vincent -- I think Vincent's jump technique is such that there is probably not consensus on how to determine whether his jumps are rotated. I mean how do you go from no URs in his Junior Worlds 2017 FS. Or from the olympics with just one UR to competitions where he has multiple URs.

In other words, Vincent's fate may be down to whoever the tech panel is, which is frustrating

 

[DanseMacabre]

I mentioned this regarding Satoko elsewhere, but I also think it applies to Vincent -- I think Vincent's jump technique is such that there is probably not consensus on how to determine whether his jumps are rotated. I mean how do you go from no URs in his Junior Worlds 2017 FS. Or from the olympics with just one UR to competitions where he has multiple URs.

In otherworld, Vincent's fate may be down to whoever the tech panel is, which is frustrating.

The recent rule change does mean that jumps that would have been called clean before this season wouldn't be called rotated now because they've gotten rid of the 1/4 turn mercy rule. It IS stricter now, but I stand by what I said about the two jumps I disagreed with the tech caller on.

And I'm with you on Satoko. I see people harp on her jumps as if they were always 100% under even when they're clean. I do get it though. They're so tiny that it doesn't seem like it should be possible to get it all the way around, but she manages sometimes.

 

[Mrs. P]

The recent rule change does mean that jumps that would have been called clean before this season wouldn't be called rotated now because they've gotten rid of the 1/4 turn mercy rule. It IS stricter now, but I stand by what I said about the two jumps I disagreed with the tech caller on.

And I'm with you on Satoko. I see people harp on her jumps as if they were always 100% under even when they're clean. I do get it though. They're so tiny that it doesn't seem like it should be possible to get it all the way around, but she manages sometimes.

That's kind of where I'm at too. I think there's room for one or two jumps to be call clean, but I also think most of the calls were correct.

 

[century2009]

Nathan programs are excellent this year. They are unique and different from the rest of the pack of same old, same old. He is standing out well.

Shae really has found her muse in Nathan. And the programs she has given him, have been outstanding. This Caravan program is as good as his Nemesis, but with a different style. Really like the energy and with interesting movement we havent seen like the opening.

Shae looks like she understands who is Nathan and designing programs that is his own style.

The FS is also wonderful. Very fresh and like the modern undertone. It is Nathan and youthful, but mature.

Really great job! I really enjoyed it, and he worked very hard (and more so now with school).

And like how he doesnt take his titles for granted, and still experiment and do something different, when he doesnt need to.

 

[century2009]

Shallow note - The hair is growing on me. It does make him more mature. It looks like he is growing up.

I dont know if that is intentional or he is just playing around with a new style, but it does seem to work for his programs.

I just want him to upgrade his costumes even a tiny bit.

Like a more fitted vest would be great. Or a more intricate shirt for his FS.

But Nathan is simple, but will hope for the best.

 

[Tavi...]

The point about under rotations, though, is that it doesn’t matter what we saw, what Tara & Johnny saw, what Jackie Wong saw, or what Michael Weiss saw, and I think it was inappropriate for them to call the TP out. Because the only truth - the only thing that matters - is what the tech panel saw, on their screen, from their vantage point.

I actually enjoyed both of Vincent’s programs. It’s too bad about the < calls, but the way I look at it, he has two choices:

- if his jumps are really fully rotated and the TP was in error, he should tweak the placement of his jumps in the program - and refine it during the official practice - so that they can clearly see this.

- if his jumps are actually < due to competition nerves or something else, he can work on fixing the problem.