2018-19 U.S. Men’s figure skating

[noskates]

Coming late to the discussion but I totally agree with everything Tavi and El Henry had to say about Jason and Nathan. I really, really like Nathan and I think he has a great career ahead of him. BUT....the ice is slippery. And also there seems to be a very slight trend back toward superior skating skills these days. Jason has those! Nathan - not as much, although he's shown great improvement and I personally like his style much better than Hanyu's (and I've never understood how Hanyu gets such high PCS - but that's a different discussion). But this last competition shows that there is still value in Jason's style of skating and on any given day it can beat those quads. Doesn't mean that the next competition won't be different or back to "the quad is the only thing valued in men's figure skating" (which I find sad......) I have great respect for the athleticism is takes to throw multiple quads in a program. But I love figure skating and to me that's more than quads. There are a couple of Junior Men coming up that could change the scenery by the next Olympics!

 

[mrrice]

I'm looking forward to see how Vincent skates in the FP. I hope he's able to skate well and stay in 3rd. I really think he needs the momentum with Nationals coming soon.

 

[Shani]

Yes he does.

 

[karne]

Honestly, it's not about the placement. His UR problem is as bad as ever. That'll be what USFS will be looking at.

 

[heyheyhey]

Maybe it would be more beneficial to him to go to another coach/jump specialist. His coaches students in general have UR problems and Vincent has been with them for a long time right? If they taught him his current technique since he was a child, it doesn’t seem rational to me that they’re suddenly gonna teach him the right technique now when that’s what they should have been doing all these years. I think he would benefit going to someone else that would completely rework his technique/jumps.

 

[Mrs. P]

Even so, Vincent's scores aren't any worse then the rest of the U.S. men's field outside of Nathan and Jason at this point. He still has a good shot at world team spot and It's not out of the question (i.e. see 2017 AND 2018 Nationals as reference) that he ends up peaking at Nationals and placing second.

The scores last year went in a very similar fashion last year with Jason (and Adam) having higher scores than Vincent leading up to U.S. Nationals last year. And Grand Prix results give some direction, but it doesn't necessarily predict the future.

And also there seems to be a very slight trend back toward superior skating skills these days. Jason has those! Nathan - not as much, although he's shown great improvement.

I don't quite agree with the Nathan doesn't have good skating skills narrative. At one time, I'd argue that Nathan actually had better skating skills than Jason, I would say circa 2014 or so, having seen them both live at U.S. Nationals that year (Nathan won the junior men's title and Jason was second to get on the Sochi team). Jason always had better outward performance ability and his choreography was more interesting than Nathan's at the time, but that's a whole different matter.

Jason, to his and Kori's credit, improved his skating skills markedly during the last Olympic quad and he's continued that improvement under Tracy Wilson's tutelage.

I haven't gotten to see Nathan live yet -- but I will soon at GPF! -- this season, but comparing them at U.S. Nationals, I didn't really see that Nathan or Jason had better skating skills than the other. I'd throw in Ross Miner in there, whose skating skills are top notch.

I would say that Jason does have the edge with polish, packaging and overall posture. That was one thing that was striking about Jason this season-- he's never had BAD posture, but there were some small adjustments (which he's talked about at various interviews) he's made regarding his body position to better do the jumps, but a nice side effect is that his posture has improved more. The polish on the programs, especially the short, is impressive given that we're mid-season.

Nathan has really good speed and edge work, but his posture/positions are a bit sloppy at times, which is kinda of interesting given his ballet training. I know he's capable of much better, but it doesn't translate with his programs -especially the free skate -- perhaps as product of the higher technical content. I do like the advancements he's making toward defining a performance style -- and I hope he'll continue to work with SLB because she's doing a good job in crafting that contemporary style for him.

I think right now Nathan just has such as huge base value/ overall TES advantage that he still, at this point, will likely run away with it, but I think the fun part about IdF is that we saw that perhaps, just perhaps, a window on what it might be like for Nathan to be challenged by someone else -- Jason -- who brings different strengths to the table.

 

[noskates]

Maybe I'm using the term "skating skills" incorrectly? To me it's the posture, the edging, the smoothness, the flow on the ice, no herky-jerky movements, the footwork and to a lesser extent the jumps. MANY men now can do the jumps, but it's the stuff in between that I'm calling skating skills. I saw Jason as a junior and he, even at that age, had the smoothness and the flowing on the ice. Nathan is coming into that and I think his choice of music and his choreography definitely has helped him with his style. In my opinion, Vincent has nothing but jumps. His posture is pretty bad most of the time and he doesn't skate to his music. He was more interesting to watch some years ago when he was a tiny, less-serious, tyke with a lot of personality. I don't see that personality very much now. But Mrs P - I think we're sort of saying the same thing.....just a little difference in the semantics.

I've mentioned Camden Pulkinen before. We watched him win Juniors at Nationals and he was pretty impressive. He needs to improve his consistency a little bit but he is definitely someone to watch.

 

[Colonel Green]

Even so, Vincent's scores aren't any worse then the rest of the U.S. men's field outside of Nathan and Jason at this point.

Yeah, even with the tech panel taking a hatchet to his TES at every event (and I don't think that's going to meaningfully improve this season; this is the sort of problem that they'll only be able to meaningfully address in the off-season), there isn't anybody who seems particularly likely to try to take his presumptive place on the national team. The UR problems will keep him from being a major medal contender until/unless he fixes them, but they haven't dropped him noticeably below anybody other than Nathan and Jason (and the latter isn't exactly a pillar of consistency yet, though if faced with a choice between Vincent and Jason -- say, if the US only had two spots -- I'd send Jason because he's got the PCS and judges' affection).

 

[lurkz2]

Nathan has really good speed and edge work, but his posture/positions are a bit sloppy at times, which is kinda of interesting given his ballet training. I know he's capable of much better, but it doesn't translate with his programs -especially the free skate -- perhaps as product of the higher technical content. I do like the advancements he's making toward defining a performance style -- and I hope he'll continue to work with SLB because she's doing a good job in crafting that contemporary style for him.

Nathan's muscle memory from ballet training seems to kick in mostly during classical pieces, his posture seems to be better for those and he seems especially slouchy with the more modern programs. The one thing I most appreciate about Nathan is his versatility, he can sell almost any type of piece. With the other men OTOH, even the top ones, I can't really tell what kind of music they're skating to if the video is on silent whereas Nathan's movement varies greatly from piece to piece.

 

[eaglehelang]

Looks like Nathan will have better chance of winning GPF with Yuzuru officially announcing his withdrawal.
Its between Nathan & Shoma.
Not discounting the other men of course but looking at current form, its between this 2.
The fight for 3rd will be interesting.

 

[karne]

Maybe it would be more beneficial to him to go to another coach/jump specialist. His coaches students in general have UR problems and Vincent has been with them for a long time right? If they taught him his current technique since he was a child, it doesn’t seem rational to me that they’re suddenly gonna teach him the right technique now when that’s what they should have been doing all these years. I think he would benefit going to someone else that would completely rework his technique/jumps.

I think Vincent's only been with Zakrasjek for a couple of years. But all the same, Zakrasjek's other Senior international man last season had no problems with URs. At all.

The scores last year went in a very similar fashion last year with Jason (and Adam) having higher scores than Vincent leading up to U.S. Nationals last year. And Grand Prix results give some direction, but it doesn't necessarily predict the future.

Um. You forgot someone. Someone else who had higher scores than Vincent and beat him head to head twice.

Nathan has really good speed and edge work, but his posture/positions are a bit sloppy at times, which is kinda of interesting given his ballet training. I know he's capable of much better, but it doesn't translate with his programs -especially the free skate -- perhaps as product of the higher technical content. I do like the advancements he's making toward defining a performance style -- and I hope he'll continue to work with SLB because she's doing a good job in crafting that contemporary style for him.

I think right now Nathan just has such as huge base value/ overall TES advantage that he still, at this point, will likely run away with it, but I think the fun part about IdF is that we saw that perhaps, just perhaps, a window on what it might be like for Nathan to be challenged by someone else -- Jason -- who brings different strengths to the table.

I don't think Nathan's skating skills are terrible, but they're definitely not worth over 90 PCS in his FS.

 

[century2009]

@ Tavi -- You need to respect other people's opinion and view, and agree to disagree than misquoting them, and putting words in others mouth and trying to profile them as someone they are not. If you like sugars and cookies about Jason because you can't accept honest criticism, then that is what the Fan thread is for because it seems if anything bad is said about your Jason, people are seen as negative.

The "Not Nathan" applies to the current US men's International standing and something that not just me, but others have pointed out (please care to read others post then pointing at someone in particular). The current US men team seem that way. The World spot (as many have pointed) is Nathan +2 other people. But please discuss that it should be Vincent + 2 others or to your benefit, Jason + 2 others or anything you feel that is "Not Nathan".

So given the general fact of Nathan's International position with his competitive wins and how he stack with the US Men, it has become that --- Nathan is the only one that is basically guaranteed an automatic position that he will probably again win National and will again be relied on for the US at Worlds. But please go on and discuss how it should be Jason + 2 if you want. I really hope there is someone that can be as competitive as Nathan internationally, and hopefully that will develop with maybe Jason (he is getting there but still adjusting), maybe Vincent, or maybe Alex. But at the moment, I don't see it yet.

I have express my view about Jason as actually someone I like but have disappointed me recently (I actually thought he would be picked for the Olympics, but with a bad showing at National, he let that go), so please don't misquote me or assume that he should do many quads as Nathan, which I have NOT said at all. So please dont misquote me for your own personal intention. As another example, assuming that I dismiss Jason's SP, which you seem to again misquote me or try to use against me.

Figure skating is a sport. And of course, there are many wonderful great skaters like Mikhail (which I also like by the way), but the discussion is the US and whether you like it or not, Nathan wins medals and titles for the US. And it is needed so they can actually maintain World spots (to help bring more men internationally like Jason, Vincent, Alex, etc), bring sponsorship and financing for the US Federation (so skaters can benefit), and give some political power at the ISU for the United States.

I hope this is the start for Jason and not a one-time thing. Hopefully Vincent will fix those underrotations. Alex to become more competitive. But at the moment, Nathan seems to be the only one driving internationally. And that is ok because he helps the US OVERALL and everyone benefits.

 

[bobbob]

I know I am in the vast minority here, but I don't actually think Jason has very good skating skills. Nathan has markedly better skating skills than Jason. Jason has great posture, great flexibility, and really well composed programs. He's an entertainer and amazing performer. He feels the music. He's very elegant and does a lot of nice movements. But he isn't a natural skater. He doesn't generate speed and glide across the ice naturally. He does skate on two feet quite a bit and does a lot of crossovers considering he doesn't have any quads. His figure skating fundamentals are not superb.

Although you don't normally think of jumps as a good indicator of skating skills, they are actually a pretty good barometer of one's speed and quality of glide across the ice. To do a quad, you need to be able at generating speed and lift off the ice, which requires a good control of blade. That is why those that do the hardest jumps often have the best skating skills as well. One of the main bullet points of skating skills is " the use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed. That very speed is why some skaters have the momentum to lift off and rotate four revolutions, and some do not.

 

[Tavi...]

@bobbob, I haven’t seen Nathan live, but I have seen Jason. He actually generates quite a lot of power and flow over the ice. I agree with you that this year both his programs, especially the free skate, are choreographed with more crossovers and two foot skating than I’ve seen him do in the recent past, but he does demonstrate one foot skating in his st sq. Nathan also does a lot of crossovers and two foot skating, though, so I’m not sure that’s a good way to differentiate between them. Jason does vary speed and does quite a lot of balance challenging moves and changes of level and direction in his step and choreo sequences, and those are also part of SS. Basically I think the way they demonstrate skating skills is very different.

@century2009, I don’t want to derail the thread by arguing with you, but I did start off my post by saying that we’re all entitled to our opinions and that I disagreed with yours as unnecessarily negative. The rest of my post was not an attempt to “put words in your mouth.” What I tried to explain was that for me, results are not the only thing that matter.

 

[Mrs. P]

I know I am in the vast minority here, but I don't actually think Jason has very good skating skills. Nathan has markedly better skating skills than Jason. Jason has great posture, great flexibility, and really well composed programs. He's an entertainer and amazing performer. He feels the music. He's very elegant and does a lot of nice movements. But he isn't a natural skater. He doesn't generate speed and glide across the ice naturally. He does skate on two feet quite a bit and does a lot of crossovers considering he doesn't have any quads. His figure skating fundamentals are not superb.

Although you don't normally think of jumps as a good indicator of skating skills, they are actually a pretty good barometer of one's speed and quality of glide across the ice. To do a quad, you need to be able at generating speed and lift off the ice, which requires a good control of blade. That is why those that do the hardest jumps often have the best skating skills as well. One of the main bullet points of skating skills is " the use of effortless power to accelerate and vary speed. That very speed is why some skaters have the momentum to lift off and rotate four revolutions, and some do not.

I think Jason said himself that part of the work he's doing at TCC involves improving his crossovers and other skating skills that would enable him to do the jumps better, so he wouldn't dispute your second paragraph above.

As I said, I would have said the same things you outlined in your first paragraph, , i.e. Nathan has mardkely better skating skills than Jason, back a few years ago, but that isn't the case now. I've seen Jason live a few times between 2014 and now, including most recently at Skate Canada, and I have seen considerable improvement in Jason's skating skills over that period. He doesn't have the RAW power and speed of someone like Yuzuru Hanyu or the super buttery edge work of a Patrick Chan, but his edgework and speed throughout is very good, if not excellent (if you want to save excellent for Yuzu and Chan, basically).

I think his PCS scores are reflective of that improvement, since it's often anchored with the SS score. Being from a big country fed helps, but Jason hasn't been U.S. No. 1 in a while --- so I'm not sure that's could be a valid explanation he gets consistently high PCS. The TES is what holds him back, but he's pretty much been a top 5, top 6 PCS for a few seasons now.

 

[noskates]

Since I've just had my morning shot of caffeine I'm in a peaceful mood. BUT - I don't see anyone in this thread disrespecting anyone else's opinion....just showing personal differences of opinion. I think it's been a good discussion at least for the last couple of pages.

For the first year following the Olympics I don't think the US is in as bad a situation as I originally thought. At least I think they'll be in the conversation (nods to Ryan Bradley) Sorry to hear about Hanyu but with his recurring injuries to that ankle maybe it's time for him to think about the rest of his life and whether he wants to walk with a decided limp or not. He's leaving a great legacy even if he stops now. And yes I know - his decision.

 

[mrrice]

I think Vincent's only been with Zakrasjek for a couple of years. But all the same, Zakrasjek's other Senior international man last season had no problems with URs. At all.

Um. You forgot someone. Someone else who had higher scores than Vincent and beat him head to head twice.



I don't think Nathan's skating skills are terrible, but they're definitely not worth over 90 PCS in his FS.

I was going to mention this. Max was with Tom and I don't think I ever saw him underrotate a jump. Max Junior...I think his name is Camden, is a beautiful jumper. For me, I'm more bothered by Vincent's posture and round shoulders. I guess we'll have to see how things go in Free this afternoon.

 

[oatmella]

Max had good jumps!

How long has Vincent been with Tom? He has been with Tammy since childhood. I wonder if working with Alex O. could help Vincent - he has helped Shoma with his jumps. I think Shoma started going to Alex for jump coaching because his mother admired Gracie’s jumps.

It’s not like Vincent doesn’t already have enough coaches - but a change might be needed.

 

[princessalica]

I'm generally POllyanna - but I do really hope that all of the US Men can just skate to their potential, and build on what they have already done. I'm looking forward to see the impact the younger generation makes on the sport, and we have quite a few ready to make their mark. Nathan is also part of that younger generation - He's not much older than Alex K or Vincent. We have so much potential, and it shows strongly at the Junior GP level. Just have to make that transition to Senior. And I have faith in them!

 

[Jammers]

No country lost as many good Senior men after the Olympic season then the US did. Adam, Max,Grant and Ross is a hard hit for any country to take even the US which has had the most depth among the men for last 4 years. It will take time to rebuild but there is talent in the pipeline.