Would Cohen have climbed to the top if she stayed with Tarasova?

[antmanb]

Did Sasha really "fail to reach the top?" Who was the most successful lady skater of the last four years? Here are the placements of the top four in 2003 worlds, 2004 worlds, 2005 worlds, and 2006 Olympics.

Kwan: 1st, 3rd, 4th, ---
Slutskaya: ---, 9th, 1st, 3rd
Arakawa: 8th, 1st, 9th, 1st (at Japanese nationals: 3rd, 3rd, ---, 3rd)
Cohen: 4th, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd

Just in case this is a relpy to my comment. What i meant (and i think i wrote) was that Sasha had that wild agressive competitive fire up to the end of the SLC season when she finished just off the podium at both the Olympics and Worlds. Just as she was about to make it to the top that fire seemed to disappear. She still won several medals including a fim silver medal reiagn at worlds and the Olys but the fire was rarely there.

Ant

 

[R.D.]

there was no fire at all.

And looking at that list, Cohen's the only one on there without at least one "1st". Just an observation.

 

[jennylovskt]

there was no fire at all.

And looking at that list, Cohen's the only one on there without at least one "1st". Just an observation.

That's why we say she failed to reach the top.

 

[Dee4707]

there was no fire at all.

Can you explain a little more indepth of what you mean. Just trying to understand your observation.

Dee

 

[krenseby]

Did Sasha really "fail to reach the top?" Who was the most successful lady skater of the last four years? Here are the placements of the top four in 2003 worlds, 2004 worlds, 2005 worlds, and 2006 Olympics.

Kwan: 1st, 3rd, 4th, ---
Slutskaya: ---, 9th, 1st, 3rd
Arakawa: 8th, 1st, 9th, 1st (at Japanese nationals: 3rd, 3rd, ---, 3rd)
Cohen: 4th, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd

Mathman, that post speaks for itself! Looking at the long term record of athletes within a time period is sometimes more useful than counting individual medals.

Otherwise, you would have to believe Sarah Hughes to be a more accomplished skater than Kwan and Slutskaya for the duration of the 1998-2002 period ;-)

Granted, Arakawa's string of results - 8,1,9,1 - may put her ahead of Cohen because she has gotten 1 twice and Cohen none. But in terms of cumulative record, if you average out their results and compare, Cohen comes out on top.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think what some posters are saying is that Sasha did not live up to her Worlds and Oly's gold.

For me, that is true, and I conject it was her own personality that hindered her - not the coaches. Yet she made a BIG SPLASH in figure skating and that too vindicates her not reaching the ultimate. I will still like her for many years to come whether she retires or makes her comeback.

Joe

 

[kendall]

I don't think so. Sasha is a choker, I don't think she can win any major title no matter she who she is with.

 

[Mathman]

To me, the majority of speculation along these lines is merely unkind. Why did Sasha get second instead of first at 2005 Worlds? Because Irina skated better.

Why did Sasha get second instead of third or four or fifth or sixth or seventh or eighth or ninth? Because she skated better than Kostner and Kwan and Suguri and Ando and Sokolova and Poykio and Arakawa (and Rochette and Meier...)

Why did Sasha get second instead of first (or third or fourth or fifth) at Torino? Stuff happens. Ice is slippery.

 

[Tinymavy15]

No one has mentioned Sasha's SPs. Malaguena and Dark Eyes were faultless and excellently performed. Sasha's SPs after SLC were consistently putting her in first place before the LP.

What happens during the LPs that keeps her from holding on to 1st place?

Joe

yes, i have noticed this many times. i think that the strong music with the attitude helps her a lot, and makes her fight for the program. her SP's on the other hand are uually slower, more ballectic and there is more time to start doubting yourself. In her short programs, sasha was always so dedicated to her charchter, that she didn;t have room for negative thinking. i suggested many, MANy times that the Firebird would have made an amazing program for her, and is till belive that if she had used a strong selctioin of music such as that, she might have won olympic gold.

 

[R.D.]

Can you explain a little more indepth of what you mean. Just trying to understand your observation.

Dee

That she lost her fire? That's not hard to see.

When I talk about FIRE I'm thinking of ATTACK. The time I watched her 2002 Olympic freeskate I saw that she was ATTACKING her program (which some posters refer to as "having her fire" or "determination"). "Launching" into elements, not being conservative, having energy.

Starting with her move to Tarasova, she abandoned that for more of this "delicate porcelain doll" type of style- very fragile, conservative, inward performances (which in effect left me very cold and bored). Occasionally in a short program you might have a flash of attack (I can recall 2004 Worlds and 2006 Olympics), but it vanishes once it comes to the FS- she's either afraid to make a mistake or doesn't have the desire or mindset to win. I've never seen her ONCE, in a non-exhibition program, just let go and enjoy the performance. Even in her so-called "breathtaking" short programs I saw nothing more than solid execution of the elements and choreo- no real joy or something that would convey to me that she LOVES SKATING.

Think of the enthusiasm of Emily Hughes combined with the athleticism of someone like irina- that's what I mean by FULL ATTACK. No holds barred, in the zone.

 

[slutskayafan21]

To me, the majority of speculation along these lines is merely unkind. Why did Sasha get second instead of first at 2005 Worlds? Because Irina skated better.

Why did Sasha get second instead of third or four or fifth or sixth or seventh or eighth or ninth? Because she skated better than Kostner and Kwan and Suguri and Ando and Sokolova and Poykio and Arakawa (and Rochette and Meier...)

Why did Sasha get second instead of first (or third or fourth or fifth) at Torino? Stuff happens. Ice is slippery.

Why did Sasha fail to ever get 1st at a World or Olympic event? Because she did never did a clean free skate. Why did Sasha fail to ever beat her great rival Michelle Kwan at U.S Nationals? Because she failed to ever do a clean free skate there(closest was 2006 without the pressure of competing vs Kwan).

How many women have won gold at World and Olympic events since 1995 without a clean free skate? Well lets see:

1996 Worlds - Kwan wins with clean free skate.
1997 Worlds - Lipinski wins with clean free skate.
1998 Olympics- Lipinski wins with clean free skate
1998 - Kwan wins without clean free skate
1999 Worlds - Butyrskaya wins with clean free skate
2000 Worlds - Kwan wins with clean free skate
2001 Worlds - Kwan wins with clean free skate
2002 Olympics - Hughes wins with clean free skate
2002 Worlds - Slutskaya wins with clean free skate
2003 Worlds - Kwan wins with clean free skate
2004 Worlds - Arakawa wins with clean free skate
2005 Worlds - Slutsakaya wins with clean free skate
2006 - Arakawa wins with clean free skate

Cohen at her World and Olympic events:

2002 Olympics - Cohen finishes 4th, without clean free skate
2002 Worlds - Cohen finishes 4th, without clean free skate
2003 Worlds - Cohen finishes 4th, without clean free skate
2004 Worlds - Cohen finishes 2nd, without clean free skate
2005 Worlds - Cohen finishes 2nd, without clean free skate
2006 Olympics - Cohen finishes 2nd, without clean free skate
2006 Worlds - Cohen finishes 3rd, without clean free skate


At U.S Nationals from 2002-2005, Cohen vs Kwan:

2002 Nationals - Kwan wins with clean free skate. Cohen finishes 2nd without clean free skate.

2003 Nationals - Kwan wins with clean free skate. Cohen finishes 3rd without clean free skate.

2004 Nationals - Kwan wins with clean free skate. Cohen finishes 2nd without clean free skate.

2005 Nationals- Kwans wins, Cohen 2nd. Neither Kwan or Cohen do clean free skate.

See a pattern. There were exactly 2 exceptions out of 15 events, and both exceptions were in favor of a women who has earned that odd break by virtue of her other many "clean" free skates and titles with those "clean" free skates. You want to win the biggest womens event these days, a "clean" free skate is a must. A "clean" free skate by Cohen was almost a never seen occurence.

 

[Dee4707]

To me, the majority of speculation along these lines is merely unkind. Why did Sasha get second instead of first at 2005 Worlds? Because Irina skated better.

Why did Sasha get second instead of third or four or fifth or sixth or seventh or eighth or ninth? Because she skated better than Kostner and Kwan and Suguri and Ando and Sokolova and Poykio and Arakawa (and Rochette and Meier...)

Why did Sasha get second instead of first (or third or fourth or fifth) at Torino? Stuff happens. Ice is slippery.

As usual Math, you are right on. You are such a breath of fresh air.

That she lost her fire? That's not hard to see.

That's just a subjective opinion.

When I talk about FIRE I'm thinking of ATTACK.

There isn't one lady skater that I can recall that fits your definition. When I think of attack, it would be Evan's LP at 07 Nationals.

I've never seen her ONCE, in a non-exhibition program, just let go and enjoy the performance. Even in her so-called "breathtaking" short programs I saw nothing more than solid execution of the elements and choreo- no real joy or something that would convey to me that she LOVES SKATING.

I have seen most of her skates throughout the years and felt each one was breathtaking, not just so-called "breathtaking," so again it is just a subjective opinion on your part. Any of the skaters have to love skating or else they just like to torture their bodies just for torture sake.

Think of the enthusiasm of Emily Hughes combined with the athleticism of someone like irina- that's what I mean by FULL ATTACK. No holds barred, in the zone.

Never saw any of that in either skater.

Dee

 

[R.D.]

Yes, my view is my opinion.

 

[Lanie]

Sasha would have climbed to the top if she wasn't lazy compared to the others. She didn't work on what she needed to do. She needed to commit herself to a training regime and not back out on it like she did with TT and Wagner.

 

[Spun Silver]

Those who consider Sasha lazy - I don't think Lanie is not the only one - how do you know she is not doing her best given her fragile, small-boned body and previous injuries?

I don't know her history in any detail but I can say - once your back has begun to trouble you, it is dangerous for the rest of your life and all kinds of things affect it, not just laybacks - certainly jumps.

I really don't know - just trying to understand what is speculation vs. what is certain knowledge.

 

[Kasey]

Checking this board while sleep deprived resulted in looking at this thread topic (which I should know, as I posted in it) and reading "Would Cohen have climbed to the top of Tarasova?".

Must....go.....to....sleep.

 

[Lanie]

Most of you know how I lurve Sasha...

But people I know who have shared ice with Sasha--as well as th ecommentators at Olys, Worlds, etc--have said clearly she does not work as hard as she should, and that seems to have been the reason for the disentigration of the TT and Wagner relationship... Sasha got into it then got lazy. I don't blame her, it's hard work, but at 2006 Worlds she was working on her spins and spirals...not what she should be working on: those darn jumps.

I get chewed out on SashaFans for voicing such opinions, but eh.

 

[Dee4707]

I really don't know - just trying to understand what is speculation vs. what is certain knowledge.

Spun Silver that's all I'm trying to do too. Some people write as if they personally know Sasha and whether or not she skated her best or not or she's lazy or not or that she skated with attack or not. The only person who wrote something factual was Math.

Dee

 

[antmanb]

or that she skated with attack or not. The only person who wrote something factual was Math.

Dee

I don't really think that someone skating with attack is is an internalised state - it is usually very apaprent to the viewer.

Irina in Torino didn't skate with any attack at all. Irina in 2005 Moscow attacked every element of her program.

If we merely had to state facts on here than GS would be a pretty boring, and quiet place.

Ant

 

[R.D.]

...and reading "Would Cohen have climbed to the top of Tarasova?".

Not too easy with that fur coat

But...I must ask, what has happened to GS????? Three years ago, Cohen was fair game- now some folks seem to do everything in their power to protect her. :scratch: How come either a) no one asks these questions quite as aggressively with other skaters or b) all of a sudden a place that used to be pretty open about criticism of Cohen is all of a sudden so protective of her?? Just an observation- those who have been here long enough should know what I mean...and I want to know what's behind the turnaround.

Off that topic, and onto that of attack- yes, I believe it's pretty apparent when a skater is attacking her program. It's sort of "getting into the zone" and knowing exactly how to approach each part of the program...AND convey SOME sort of feeling to the audience. This sort of approach is, going OT again, what I'm looking for in a skater like, let's say, Kimmie.