Would Cohen have climbed to the top if she stayed with Tarasova?

[Dee4707]

If we merely had to state facts on here than GS would be a pretty boring, and quiet place.

Ant

Sorry Ant but I have to disagree with your comment. I think sometimes people voice their opinions and have no substance to them whatsoever. I think when people come to a thread just to spew venom that to me is pretty boring. I have been on this board since 2002 and have learned a great deal from this board and the posters. Most posters share their opinions, others state their opinions as factual. You can tell the difference or at least I can.

Dee

 

[R.D.]

As far as stating opinions as factual- I think that only occurs with a comment such as "the fact that she is good-looking"...that's clearly not a fact, it's an opinion stated as a fact. But when I read Lanie's comment I assumed it was her opinion (since she said she was basing it off of HER experiences with others who have seen her practice, etc.). Nothing wrong with forming an opinion based on experiences. I see a lot of comments made here that aren't "backed" yet no one raises a stink about it. It only seems to come up when the topic concerns Sasha Cohen...hmm...:scratch:

As far as skating discussion here goes, IN MY OPINION ( ) the only things that can be considered "facts" are statistics, placements, and the nuances and numbers of the Cop. Every other statement is a form of opinion.

 

[soogar]

Sasha has always kept this quiet but around the TT time and the Robin time her parents were in the process of divorcing and who knows what kind of marital issues her parents were experiencing prior. Sasha seems to be one of the most emotionally sensitive skaters out there. It surprises me that someone as mechanical as Michelle who just crunches out jumps consistently can inspire such heartfelt devotion when a delicate creature such as Sasha can inspire such disdain. Every emotion and disappointment registers in this girl's eyes when she competes and I imagine that as a student she is very similar. Nicks was a comforting presence to her. You could see it in the way he took her hands and spoke to her before she competed. My thought was that TT was too intense for her and couldn't remain detached from Sasha's disappointments. Sasha has enough things going through her head without the added worry of disappointing her coach. As for Robin- well Sasha is not Sarah and it did seem that Robin was using the same approach for Sasha as Sarah. It just didn't mesh well and watching Sasha take deep breaths like Sarah before she skated- well she looked like she was hyperventilating out there.

 

[antmanb]

Sorry Ant but I have to disagree with your comment. I think sometimes people voice their opinions and have no substance to them whatsoever. I think when people come to a thread just to spew venom that to me is pretty boring. I have been on this board since 2002 and have learned a great deal from this board and the posters. Most posters share their opinions, others state their opinions as factual. You can tell the difference or at least I can.

Dee

I don't think anything you say in your disagrees with what i said. The majority of anything people write on these boards is opinion. Look at the wide variety of comments that a single performance (or even a single element) provoke from people. People will often just state their opinions without writing "IMO" afterwards but maybe readers should imply throse three letters after every sentence.

I hope you don't think my posts on teh subject were "spew[ing] venom". I genuinely think attack or fire is something you can see in a skater (just my opinion of course), I also think that Sasha had that fire in practically each and every one of her performances up to the end of the SLC season and after that, the fire and attack in her LP's seemed to be missing in all but a few performances.....all opinion from me. Not trying to pass it off as any kind of fact, just something worth debating with other posters...all opinions contrary or otherwise welcome

Ant

 

[R.D.]

Sasha has always kept this quiet but around the TT time and the Robin time her parents were in the process of divorcing and who knows what kind of marital issues her parents were experiencing prior. Sasha seems to be one of the most emotionally sensitive skaters out there. It surprises me that someone as mechanical as Michelle who just crunches out jumps consistently can inspire such heartfelt devotion when a delicate creature such as Sasha can inspire such disdain. Every emotion and disappointment registers in this girl's eyes when she competes and I imagine that as a student she is very similar. Nicks was a comforting presence to her. You could see it in the way he took her hands and spoke to her before she competed. My thought was that TT was too intense for her and couldn't remain detached from Sasha's disappointments. Sasha has enough things going through her head without the added worry of disappointing her coach. As for Robin- well Sasha is not Sarah and it did seem that Robin was using the same approach for Sasha as Sarah. It just didn't mesh well and watching Sasha take deep breaths like Sarah before she skated- well she looked like she was hyperventilating out there.

Great post, puts things in perspective. I wasn't even aware of the parental thing, maybe that can explain things a little? I agree she seems the more emotional(ly fragile) type.

But I think there was some recent interview of her in which she said (paraphrasing here) that the Olympic season was very long and stressful for her and that she needed this break (and that this break allowed her to explore herself, her family, etc.). I think just the daily routine over and over again sapped her energy and I wouldn't be surprised if, around the time of the Olympics, she might have actually ran into motivation issues. I mean, she certainly didn't seem disappointed in losing out on the OGM even though she came so close to it. Kwan and Slutskaya showed visible disappointment both in 2002 and 2006 when they lost, but Cohen actually seemed relieved...happy...almost that it was all over and seemed to be rather content with how she did. I don't know, maybe she's the type to keep her emotions to herself in public...but even the most private of persons- MK- at least you can tell when she's crushed.

By the time the World championships came about, as soon as they first showed her on the ESPN broadcast I KNEW right then and there that she wasn't going to win- she looked like she didn't even want to be there...or that she even cared if she won. Add that to likely lack of preparation due to Hollywood smooching and it showed in her performances. She should have skipped that comp like the other Oly medalists- I don't even know why she went. Hopefully she wasn't pressured by the league or by her family or coach. If your heart isn't in it, you can't do it- I don't care how good you think you are. Even if she ultimately chooses to come back, I think she might get into it maybe for the first season or so- maybe she'd have found the motivation she needs- and then she'll tire out and we might have ourselves a vicious cycle. I'm sure she likes skating- otherwise she wouldn't be doing it- but I sometimes question if she LOVES it or not. After all, every top skater is subjected to the same "daily grind" as her, but it somehow seems to really affect her- maybe soogar has a point about her being emotionally fragile here.

She seems to be much happier now- I could see it in her Marshall's performances. The stress of competition seems to really get to her and I'm not sure she's the type that's cut out for that environment. She's very fortunate to have won so many medals...she's that good.

And at the description of MK being mechanical

 

[1cmarie]

And at the description of MK being mechanical

Me too, in an absurd kind of way. She's more 'solid' than mechanical, to me.

 

[Mathman]

But...I must ask, what has happened to GS????? Three years ago, Cohen was fair game- now some folks seem to do everything in their power to protect her. :scratch:

I can only speak for myself, but to me the answer is obvious. Back in the day, we Michelle fans were afraid that Sasha was going to beat our girl, so naturally Sasha was "fair game."

Now that that's all water under the bridge, we feel a little ashamed of ourselves, so we are the first to fly to Sasha's defense.

 

[SeaniBu]

Ah once again MK Takes the thread :agree: I wonder if that post was meant more as the way she has an ability to produce jumps is mechanical - not that her skating is. That is the way I read it anyway. ????

soogar, that post was really informative. is it mostly POV or Factual? The question only really came to mind due to the discussion going on. And it was one of my main curiosities discussed.

I have only read 2 posts that I see as being "snide" toward Sasha. The rest are that in between of emotionally motivated opinion. It seems quite common that some see Sasha with that "fire in her eye" (Irish accent came to mind saying that )for the SP and then something different often appears when the LP starts. I don't think "bash" in anyway, but I too have noted that in the past - even here at GS. Sasha did OFTEN seem to have a different look - indicating a different mind set from "one day to the next / SP to LP."

 

[R.D.]

I can only speak for myself, but to me the answer is obvious. Back in the day, we Michelle fans were afraid that Sasha was going to beat our girl, so naturally Sasha was "fair game."

Now that that's all water under the bridge, we feel a little ashamed of ourselves, so we are the first to fly to Sasha's defense.

I began to feel the transition almost immediately following the Olympic games. This, I feel, wasn't something gradual...Criticism of Cohen, often rather harsh, even some bashing from a select poster (who is no longer here) was the norm here on GS at least from the time I joined to about around a year ago. Then all of a sudden I think someone started a "typical" cohen thread (or made some comment) and then two posters suddenly jumped in on the defensive. I was shocked because I'd never seen that type of swift backup for any skater other than Kwan. Now it occurs regularly, and the latest example is this thread right here.

In 2003 we would have joined you, in 2007 now we challenge you and attack you.

 

[R.D.]

oh, let me clarify that I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. It's just a rather, umm, abrupt change-of-atmosphere and change of culture here.

 

[Spun Silver]

I don't know about GS's past. All I can say is that no other skater seems to attract the venom that Sasha does. I don't know why any skater should be considered "fair game" for attacks. This isn't target practice. Discussion and different opinions are fine and make the board interesting, as Antman notes, but when criticism seems to be overly harsh or unfounded, fans are going to challenge it. What's so surprising or troubling about that? If critics have their say, why not defenders, for heaven's sake?

I always find it amusing when those who dish it out can't take it.

Anyway, back to Sasha - you'll never find me getting bothered because you think she is not attacking her skates. Agreeing with Dee and disagreeing with Antman here: there is something objective there we are talking about, the skate itself which we can all see (thanks to Youtube!!!). We may have different opinions but on points of fact we can refer back to the performance.

But Sasha being lazy? That's a harsh judgment - character defamation, in fact. Maybe a top coach or another elite skater would have the right and knowledge to make that judgment about the Olympic silver medalist. From anyone else -- back it up, please, with something more solid than gossip or TV commentators. We all know how reliable they are. If you can't back it up, why should anyone believe it?

 

[SeaniBu]

But Sasha being lazy? That's a harsh judgment - character defamation, in fact.

Slander?

Maybe a top coach or another elite skater would have the right and knowledge to make that judgment about the Olympic silver medalist. From anyone else -- back it up, please, with something more solid than gossip or TV commentators. We all know how reliable they are. If you can't back it up, why should anyone believe it?

Good point of how a word or two as explanation could have made this a more palatable / discussable comment.
i.e. "I see Sasha as..." Or "according to ....Sasha is..." That could have helped the comment from sounding / being a "bash." Even the comment of "she didn't seem as dedicated to her training as others are." But most (including myself) are not fond of "name calling," it just comes across as childish.

I for one do not see her as "lazy" at all.

 

[R.D.]

SS- you should have come here and said that in 2004. Then again, I'm not sure you'd have lasted long

Actually, I was one of the few that, at the time, dared to stick up for her at times when she was just being pummeled and what happened? I got pushed aside and written off as a rabid fan. *bleh* go figure.

Basically, my point is that I think most people get it. What I don't understand is the double standard I once noticed for Kwan seems to be transferring over to Cohen. Other skaters DO get criticized harshly- maybe not as much- but I didn't see this strong of a counterattack towards anyone who, for example, called Kimmie boring and uninspiring. (Save, I was one of those folks.) If someone said that about Cohen you and Dee would have been on the prowl, ready to pounce. I don't mind my thoughts being challenged or seeing others' opinions being challenged, but if we're going to do it let's at least be somewhat consistent

I will agree though that calling her "lazy" is stretching it- although I can bet that Lanie doesn't mean it in the sense that we think about it (couch potato), but just that she doesn't work quite as hard on what she needs to work on as a skater at her level would require- especially that of a champion.

 

[Dee4707]

I always find it amusing when those who dish it out can't take it.

But Sasha being lazy? That's a harsh judgment - character defamation, in fact. Maybe a top coach or another elite skater would have the right and knowledge to make that judgment about the Olympic silver medalist. From anyone else -- back it up, please, with something more solid than gossip or TV commentators. We all know how reliable they are. If you can't back it up, why should anyone believe it?

Excellent Spun Silver, you've said what I couldn't articulate!!!

If you can't back it up, why should anyone believe it?

That's the point I was trying to make.

As a for instance, it is common knowledge that Sasha's parents got a divorce. I would imagine that she suffered some sorrow, loss and depression over that. I think Soogar explains it quite well. What was Sasha supposed to do---quit?? Go out there and attack her programs like there's no tomorrow?? I think she did what she could and probably spent lots of energy protecting herself. I am not making excuses for her because whether she skated perfectly or not I enjoy watching her.

Dee

 

[R.D.]

As a for instance, it is common knowledge that Sasha's parents got a divorce.

"Common knowledge"!? Sorry but WTH??!!? I *never* hear people talk about that when they refer to Cohen's past. I'd assume that if they knew about it at least someone would have mentioned it!! I'd think only dedicated Sasha fans would know about it, but maybe I could be mistaken. I just have NEVER heard about it till soogar brought it up.

Folks should get out there and defend their skaters more aggressively like Dee is doing for Cohen. And since you were here during the time she was "fair game"...for goodness sake why didn't ya say somethin'

 

[Spun Silver]

SS- you should have come here and said that in 2004. Then again, I'm not sure you'd have lasted long

It is hard to believe that our pacific MM permitted "the nice board" (as I think of it) to be as furious as you describe it.

Actually, I was one of the few that, at the time, dared to stick up for her at times when she was just being pummeled and what happened? I got pushed aside and written off as a rabid fan. *bleh* go figure.

Excuse me - you, defending Sasha??? OK, I'll take your word for it - but it beggars the imagination!

Basically, my point is that I think most people get it. What I don't understand is the double standard I once noticed for Kwan seems to be transferring over to Cohen. Other skaters DO get criticized harshly- maybe not as much- but I didn't see this strong of a counterattack towards anyone who, for example, called Kimmie boring and uninspiring. (Save, I was one of those folks.) If someone said that about Cohen you and Dee would have been on the prowl, ready to pounce. I don't mind my thoughts being challenged or seeing others' opinions being challenged, but if we're going to do it let's at least be somewhat consistent

I'm not a Kimmie fan so I'm not going to be rushing to her defense, but I do my best to keep my comments about her (or any other skater) within the bounds of respect and courtesy. I've noted that I'm trying to keep an open mind about her, given her age. Heck, I even defended her hair! What more do you want from my life?

I will agree though that calling her "lazy" is stretching it- although I can bet that Lanie doesn't mean it in the sense that we think about it (couch potato), but just that she doesn't work quite as hard on what she needs to work on as a skater at her level would require- especially that of a champion.

Lanie is very articulate so I would think if she wrote "lazy," she meant "lazy"!

 

[R.D.]

It is hard to believe that our pacific MM permitted "the nice board" (as I think of it) to be as furious as you describe it.

You'd better believe it. The board now is a quiet, peaceful country compared to the war-ravaged zone it was before.

Excuse me - you, defending Sasha??? OK, I'll take your word for it - but it beggars the imagination!

nah, nah...I wouldn't exactly call it "defending" her. I was just being more reasonable about her with my comments while others declared full open season on her with their comments (stopping short of swearing). But of course, to the masses, this was "seen" as defending her and then proceeded to write me off as a Cohen fan. Check the archives.

I'm not a Kimmie fan so I'm not going to be rushing to her defense

Ah ha! gotcha bias rules the forums here!! The one-skater or two-skater fans will step up and defend their skaters all the way to the promised land, but will practically let similar comments toward other skaters slip by unscathed. Not a bad thing, just an observation

Heck, I even defended her hair! What more do you want from my life?

I agree, too, didn't see what the big deal over her hair in the commercial was.

Lanie is very articulate so I would think if she wrote "lazy," she meant "lazy"!

Only Lanie herself can tell us what she really meant.

 

[SeaniBu]

I agree, too, didn't see what the big deal over her hair in the commercial was.

At the very least it looks like it is managed and healthy. Oils are good for your hair. Still though she looks better as a brunette than with hair that almost seems black.

Only Lanie herself can tell us what she really meant.

Naw, she'll leave us guessing. J/K

 

[Lanie]

Just to confirm that yes, it is my OPINION based on people I know who have seen Sasha practice--some of these people who know Sasha. I've been able to meet Sasha but, uh, not like I'd ask her, "So what's up with your frame of mind when competing?" (I never did post my SOI experiences here, did I? Running into Sasha twice, some random guy giving us backstage passes so I got to meet everyone on the cast pretty much...lol) And re: lazy, not like she doesn't work. If she didn't work a little bit she'd never get where she is, but to her the hard work seemed like peanuts compared to the other skaters. I think in this sport you need to live breathe eat skating. It's just that she never seemed to have done that little bit of extra to help herself do what she wanted...win. Despite this I want her back, BAD. I miss her!

I am sooo bad, I am in class right now taking notes and posting this!

 

[Spun Silver]

Ah ha! gotcha bias rules the forums here!! The one-skater or two-skater fans will step up and defend their skaters all the way to the promised land, but will practically let similar comments toward other skaters slip by unscathed. Not a bad thing, just an observation

Um... you might check out my siggy and user title before calling me a 1- or 2-skater fan!