2019 World Championships Mens Short Program

[Baron Vladimir]

No way in heck Litvintsev or Lazukin should even be within 10 points of the PCS on Jason’s SP here, I don’t care if they landed eight quads.. And I actually enjoyed Litvintsevs skate more than I thought I would.

I think starting order is important, but comparing anyone’s PCS to Jason’s is not the proof

Ok, let's not exaggerate things here. I'm not saying anything to bash skaters, just the simple facts regarding the impact of starting orders. Jason got SB here, both for PCS and total SP score. Litvintsev and Lazukin skated their best and didn't get their best PCS score from this season. If that is not a proof i don't know what may be.

 

[surimi]

Ok, let's not exaggerate things here. I'm not saying anything to bash skaters, just the simple facts regarding the impact of starting orders. Jason got SB here, both for PCS and total SP score. Litvintsev and Lazukin skated their best and didn't get their best PCS score from this season. If that is not a proof i don't know what may be.

I don't think one can speak of 'proof' when discussing something as subjective as PCS. I haven't seen Jason's skate yet, just Lazukin's and Litvintsev's, but although they were very good and I thought 'wow, what a talent' when watching Litvintsev, I'd absolutely say that Jason is still superior to these two, artistically and musicality-wise, and more mature in his rendition. (by which I am not implying I find the other two guys 'immature', just less mature than Jason, that's all) If Jason's past performances are anything to go by, I find the judging just in this case, and not caused by starting orders.

 

[frida80]

carolina is not eternal as this season has showed, in my opinion lucrezia needs another season in juniors (as probably daniel) but she (and daniel) will be pushed in seniors next year because, let's face it, we don't have anybody else who can get us 2 spots or fill them (and good bye to our 3 jwr spots)

I think Daniel will thrive with some senior competition. I do think both worlds and JW are pushing it though. But I don’t see any reason why Lucretia should be pushed to seniors this early. More JGP, maybe a CS and Euros for a little exposure. But she’ll burn out with Worlds too.

 

[binky]

Im absolutely not getting the judging. Is it supposed to be fair? It’s complete favoritism . I don’t understand why no complaining!

 

[Mathman]

I thought the judging was pretty good. My only complaint: give Matteo Rizzo a couple more points for settling into that soul-satisfying groove and reminding us of why we were attracted to figure skating in the first place.:yes:

 

[el henry]

Ok, let's not exaggerate things here. I'm not saying anything to bash skaters, just the simple facts regarding the impact of starting orders. Jason got SB here, both for PCS and total SP score. Litvintsev and Lazukin skated their best and didn't get their best PCS score from this season. If that is not a proof i don't know what may be.

I don’t think I’m exaggerating.

Litventsen’s best in performance components in no way shape or form equals Jason Brown’s best.

Lazukin’s best in performance components in no way shape or form equals Jason’s best.

So I’d say a ten point difference is just about right, if not generous for L & L.

 

[oatmella]

Yup. That 4Lz 3T was as clean as they come.

The B.ESP guys were very complimentary of Vincent's SP, especially 4Lz-3T - and also, 'Not just for the incredible technical stuff, but loved the artistry too - a routine choreographed by Jeffrey Buttle, and it looked like one of Jeffrey Buttle's routines - no higher praise'

They were surprised he didn't score higher and thought the judges held back a bit.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I don’t think I’m exaggerating.

Litventsen’s best in performance components in no way shape or form equals Jason Brown’s best.

Lazukin’s best in performance components in no way shape or form equals Jason’s best.

So I’d say a ten point difference is just about right, if not generous for L & L.

Nobody is saying they are equal. Im saying that Litvinstev best skate of the year is not awarded with SB in PCS, Lazukin best skate of the year is not awarded with SB in PCS, while some of the skaters skating in last two groups, including Jason are awarded with SB. You obviously dont understand what im saying, and what my point is. And thats only lead to the difference of 10 points difference in PCS between them, which is basically a quad base value. But put Jason aside. Take Zhou as an example who also skated in later groups. He scored 5 PCS points more than Lazukin, which is a base value of one required element - solo jump. And my point is - Zhou, as a part of the skaters who skated later on is awarded with big SB in PCS, Litvintsev and Lazukin who skated early on, are not!

 

[el henry]

Nobody is saying they are equal. Im saying that Litvinstev best skate of the year is not awarded with SB in PCS, Lazukin best skate of the year is not awarded with SB in PCS, while some of the skaters skating in last two groups, including Jason are awarded with SB. You obviously dont understand what im saying, and what my point is. And thats only lead to the difference of 10 points difference in PCS between them, which is basically a quad base value. But put Jason aside. Take Zhou as an example who also skated in later groups. He scored 5 PCS points more than Lazukin, which is a base value of one required element - solo jump. And my point is - Zhou, as a part of the skaters who skated later on is awarded with big SB in PCS, Litvintsev and Lazukin who skated early on, are not!

Yes, you are right, I did not understand what you were saying. I also agree that later skaters get a "bump".

I do not know enough about L&L to know if it was their best skates of the season. If it was, they should earn their best scores.

And you don't want to talk to me about Vincent's PCS. I admire that he's trying more, but ... :noshake:

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Yes, you are right, I did not understand what you were saying. I also agree that later skaters get a "bump".

I do not know enough about L&L to know if it was their best skates of the season. If it was, they should earn their best scores.

And you don't want to talk to me about Vincent's PCS. I admire that he's trying more, but ... :noshake:

Yes, that was my point. I mean, you can take Kolyada too instead of those skaters i mentioned, who is placed ahead of Lazukin. Would scores/placements between those two would be the same if Lazukin skated on Mikael position and vice versa?

 

[RoundedBackCamel]

I can’t believe I’m entering the fray here, but just the fact that it *is* still being discussed 11 years on means that they *should” all really be pushing the envelope and not doing quadless programs. All sports push for faster, stronger, higher, more difficult. Just look at gymnastics or diving. Degree of difficulty is an important factor. It’s not emasculating a skater, but I worry about people infantilizing a grown man and being overprotective of him. Any skater could go for beautiful skating skills, edges without the added pressure of quads. My fave, Kolyada, for instance, who has struggled with consistency and is in a country where fed exerts enormous pressure. But I’m sure he wouldnt want to go back to no quads and I wouldn’t like it either. I remember all the talk of quads at beginning of JB’s career and whether he was going to “get” the quad. And frankly I’m disappointed he hasn’t. We’re back in Todd Eldridge days.

 

[Tavi...]

I can’t believe I’m entering the fray here, but just the fact that it *is* still being discussed 11 years on means that they *should” all really be pushing the envelope and not doing quadless programs. All sports push for faster, stronger, higher, more difficult. Just look at gymnastics or diving. Degree of difficulty is an important factor. It’s not emasculating a skater, but I worry about people infantilizing a grown man and being overprotective of him. Any skater could go for beautiful skating skills, edges without the added pressure of quads. My fave, Kolyada, for instance, who has struggled with consistency and is in a country where fed exerts enormous pressure. But I’m sure he wouldnt want to go back to no quads and I wouldn’t like it either. I remember all the talk of quads at beginning of JB’s career and whether he was going to “get” the quad. And frankly I’m disappointed he hasn’t. We’re back in Todd Eldridge days.

I’m not sure where the line is in your mind between “emasculating” a male skater and “[not] infantilizing a grown man and being overprotective of him,” but I see very little difference. In both cases, there seems to be an underlying bias that male athletes should appear strong and masculine, and that executing quads is the appropriate way for them to achieve this and push the sport forward. But I’m not aware of any evidence that the only way to push the sport technically is to jump quads and more quads.

Johnny Weir, who is often quad-focused in his commentary and has not exactly been known as a great champion of Jason Brown, said a couple of years ago (Worlds 2017 FS) that given the content in Jason’s step sequences and spins, “it takes so much more energy to complete those elements than it would a single quad toeloop. It is so difficult to hold your body and do it at such a level that your grade of execution is a plus 3. That is why his skating is so appreciated by these judging panels.” Jason himself also said once in an interview that he doesn’t know if people realize how hard his programs are, that they’re very taxing. So it’s not clear to me that jumping quads is the only or the best way to push the sport forward technically, although it may be the easiest to quantify and fit the best with cultural norms.

The other thing I’d say is that figure skating as a sport is quite different to diving or gymnastics, neither of which has a strong artistic component, and I hope it stays that way. I personally think that by tweaking the scoring system so it still rewards quads highly but also rewards quality of execution more highly, the ISU has achieved a pretty good balance. YMMV.

 

[babyskate]

I can’t believe I’m entering the fray here, but just the fact that it *is* still being discussed 11 years on means that they *should” all really be pushing the envelope and not doing quadless programs. All sports push for faster, stronger, higher, more difficult. Just look at gymnastics or diving. Degree of difficulty is an important factor. It’s not emasculating a skater, but I worry about people infantilizing a grown man and being overprotective of him. Any skater could go for beautiful skating skills, edges without the added pressure of quads. My fave, Kolyada, for instance, who has struggled with consistency and is in a country where fed exerts enormous pressure. But I’m sure he wouldnt want to go back to no quads and I wouldn’t like it either. I remember all the talk of quads at beginning of JB’s career and whether he was going to “get” the quad. And frankly I’m disappointed he hasn’t. We’re back in Todd Eldridge days.

And the Todd Eldridge days were nice. To each their own. I love a program with exciting quads and artistry but have no problems with a technically difficult, artistic, quadless program in the face of others who are not landing their quads cleanly. Good luck to all these amazing men in the free skate.

 

[GGFan]

I can’t believe I’m entering the fray here, but just the fact that it *is* still being discussed 11 years on means that they *should” all really be pushing the envelope and not doing quadless programs. All sports push for faster, stronger, higher, more difficult. Just look at gymnastics or diving. Degree of difficulty is an important factor. It’s not emasculating a skater, but I worry about people infantilizing a grown man and being overprotective of him. Any skater could go for beautiful skating skills, edges without the added pressure of quads. My fave, Kolyada, for instance, who has struggled with consistency and is in a country where fed exerts enormous pressure. But I’m sure he wouldnt want to go back to no quads and I wouldn’t like it either. I remember all the talk of quads at beginning of JB’s career and whether he was going to “get” the quad. And frankly I’m disappointed he hasn’t. We’re back in Todd Eldridge days.

I think this is overstated. There would be a problem if everyone was doing quadless programs and the sport wasn't progressing. That's not the case. Quadless programs these days are the exception.

Quadless programs also don't make figure skating less like other sports. In other sports you may have those who are pushing faster, stronger, higher but there's always a risk reward calculation. Maybe runners learn a new technique to get a faster start but that also involves a risk. There will always be successful athletes who decide not to take the risk. Yes, the runners with the new technique may win most of the time, but those who play it safe will have their chances when the others make a mistake and false start.

There's nothing regressive about not doing a quad. Those folks have just made a different calculation. As is the sport disfavors them. I don't think we also have to pile on by ridiculing them.

 

[el henry]

I can’t believe I’m entering the fray here, but just the fact that it *is* still being discussed 11 years on means that they *should” all really be pushing the envelope and not doing quadless programs. All sports push for faster, stronger, higher, more difficult. Just look at gymnastics or diving. Degree of difficulty is an important factor. It’s not emasculating a skater, but I worry about people infantilizing a grown man and being overprotective of him. Any skater could go for beautiful skating skills, edges without the added pressure of quads. My fave, Kolyada, for instance, who has struggled with consistency and is in a country where fed exerts enormous pressure. But I’m sure he wouldnt want to go back to no quads and I wouldn’t like it either. I remember all the talk of quads at beginning of JB’s career and whether he was going to “get” the quad. And frankly I’m disappointed he hasn’t. We’re back in Todd Eldridge days.

I’m sorry, but how sexist to equate quads with “masculinization”. Or to equate lack of masculinization with infantilization.:noshake:
Those are outdated concepts that I am very happy to see relegated (I hope) to the dustbin of history :agree:

If everyone can be so darn beautiful without quads, then why aren’t they? Because they can’t. Jason has that gift and Jason can.

Pushing the envelope includes marvelous skating skills, spins with extraordinary flexibility, transitions that are unequalled. Every bit as athletic and as advanced as revolutions in the air:agree:

And to the extent that is being celebrated here,I say

 

[RoundedBackCamel]

I am clearly not making myself clear here. I don't consider quads "masculine." It's true that certain countries put more emphasis on machismo (Russia, Spain, etc.), but I personally don't (Toller Cranston was one of my favorite skaters in the 70s, for heaven's sake! I love Hanyu and Shoma, but they aren't necessarily "masculine" skaters because they do quads). I just consider quads a natural evolution of the sport. Janet Lynn was a full-package skater, for her day, but it's clear that watching her videos now, one is struck by how simple the jumps look. Dick Button landed the first triple (the loop) in 1948! And the era of the quad started 20 years ago! Yagudin and Plushenko followed Eldredge and brought artistry *and* technical ability. (And suffered the consequences physically--but now quad techniques have developed that are kinder to the body.) Those who had only technical ability but not artistry (Timothy Goebel, and more recently Max Aaron) suffered because they weren't full-package skaters. Vincent Zhou has attempted to bring more artistry to his program, but it should work the other way too--for all skaters. Artistic skaters should strive to be better technically and should up their game too.

When I send infantalizing, I was referring to the unwritten rule on this website that JB cannot be criticized. The mama (and papa) bears come out in full force to protect the cub. But the "cub" is a grown man. If people can complain about Vincent's lack of artistry (and, boy, do they), it's fair game to comment on Jason's lack of technical content.

 

[el henry]

I am clearly not making myself clear here. I don't consider quads "masculine." It's true that certain countries put more emphasis on machismo (Russia, Spain, etc.), but I personally don't (Toller Cranston was one of my favorite skaters in the 70s, for heaven's sake! I love Hanyu and Shoma, but they aren't necessarily "masculine" skaters because they do quads). I just consider quads a natural evolution of the sport. Janet Lynn was a full-package skater, for her day, but it's clear that watching her videos now, one is struck by how simple the jumps look. Dick Button landed the first triple (the loop) in 1948! And the era of the quad started 20 years ago! Yagudin and Plushenko followed Eldredge and brought artistry *and* technical ability. (And suffered the consequences physically--but now quad techniques have developed that are kinder to the body.) Those who had only technical ability but not artistry (Timothy Goebel, and more recently Max Aaron) suffered because they weren't full-package skaters. Vincent Zhou has attempted to bring more artistry to his program, but it should work the other way too--for all skaters. Artistic skaters should strive to be better technically and should up their game too.

When I send infantalizing, I was referring to the unwritten rule on this website that JB cannot be criticized. The mama (and papa) bears come out in full force to protect the cub. But the "cub" is a grown man. If people can complain about Vincent's lack of artistry (and, boy, do they), it's fair game to comment on Jason's lack of technical content.

Thank you for explaining what you meant. Jason has been striving to up his “technical” game, as relates to a quads, for five years now.

As the original Toller fangirl, I do not consider revolutions in the air to be “progress”, but that is an opinion. Others may hold different opinions.

And having been on the board for a few years now, I don’t see anyone who wants to criticize Jason holding back and I am no more infantilizing Jason by supporting what he brings to skating than I am infantilizing Carson Wentz by supporting him when some claim he should not be the Eagles QB.

Imma just bringing my Philadelphia sports fan attitude to the table

 

[draqq]

I think it's perfectly justified to criticize Jason Brown's technical base value, and he would criticize himself for not having the quad and so is now attempting the 4S much more often this year. Choosing Brian Orser as a new coach this season means quads in the long run.

However, I would make the argument that technical quality (GOE) is a part of technical content as well, as far as the IJS is concerned. His 3F and 3Lz+3T were the best by anyone doing those elements in the short program, and you would be hard-pressed to find many male skaters who can perform the normal triples with +4 quality on a consistent basis. His spins and footwork sequences are always marked among the highest -- that is, Top 3 -- in the men's field for quality. That's not really rewarded much by this system (just tenths of a point really), but it's a technical feat that anyone can accomplish this so often. I mean, you would think that all these competitors who can do quads would also have the supposed technique to do the easier content at a top level all of the time but for most of the field they don't.

 

[Mrs. P]

I think it's perfectly justified to criticize Jason Brown's technical base value, and he would criticize himself for not having the quad and so is now attempting the 4S much more often this year. Choosing Brian Orser as a new coach this season means quads in the long run.

However, I would make the argument that technical quality (GOE) is a part of technical content as well, as far as the IJS is concerned. His 3F and 3Lz+3T were the best by anyone doing those elements in the short program, and you would be hard-pressed to find many male skaters who can perform the normal triples with +4 quality on a consistent basis. His spins and footwork sequences are always marked among the highest -- that is, Top 3 -- in the men's field for quality. That's not really rewarded much by this system (just tenths of a point really), but it's a technical feat that anyone can accomplish this so often. I mean, you would think that all these competitors who can do quads would also have the supposed technique to do the easier content at a top level all of the time but for most of the field part they don't.

There's a couple of cool charts worth looking at:
https://twitter.com/SkatingScores/status/1108852137981894656

This chart from Skating Scores.com. The list shows that Jason and Yuzu have the same number of elements on this top 20 GOE list-- FIVE. In other words Jason and Yuzuru have make up 50 percent of this list.

https://twitter.com/bigfanofskating/status/1108719810190311424
This chart from Figure Skating Charts shows the percentage of the maximum score (aka BV + all +5) skaters received at different elements. ALL three of Jason's jumping passes are in the top of top 10 lists in this area and he has the #1 spot for both his 3F and 3Z-3T combo. His 3F got 89 percent of the perfect score, while his 3Z-3T got 80 percent of the perfect score for that element.

The quality element is serving Jason well while he's still trying to figure out the quad thing.

 

[sworddance21]

There's a couple of cool charts worth looking at:
https://twitter.com/SkatingScores/status/1108852137981894656

This chart from Skating Scores.com. The list shows that Jason and Yuzu have the same number of elements on this top 20 GOE list-- FIVE. In other words Jason and Yuzuru have make up 50 percent of this list.

https://twitter.com/bigfanofskating/status/1108719810190311424
This chart from Figure Skating Charts shows the percentage of the maximum score (aka BV + all +5) skaters received at different elements. ALL three of Jason's jumping passes are in the top of top 10 lists in this area and he has the #1 spot for both his 3F and 3Z-3T combo. His 3F got 89 percent of the perfect score, while his 3Z-3T got 80 percent of the perfect score for that element.

The quality element is serving Jason well while he's still trying to figure out the quad thing.

I'm on my phone and I can't find the thumbs up - so THUMBS UP!!Thank you. Jason is working on the quad but I think many people don't really comprehend how superior and special everything else he does is. And I think Team Orser is improving that part of his skating as well as his jumping.