Women and the Quad | Page 30 | Golden Skate

Women and the Quad

I'm convinced that no jump programs are
(1) boring
(2) while (1) is a personal, this one is objective: without jumps, judges will switch to queue and reputation scoring, as it happens in ice dance. It is already horrible, and would be even worse if there are more disciplines involved.

Jumps are literally the only thing that is judges *somewhat* objectively

1) That's subjective.... I can't call ice dancing or synhro skating events "boring" for example. All in the eyes of a beholder.

2) Spins and step sequences also have an objective criteria for leveling. Maybe in jump-less events they will be leveled more accurately. Because now I see that sometimes (or even often) tech panels level these elements not very accurate and based on jump content difficulty as well...
 
1) That's subjective.... I can't call ice dancing or synhro skating events "boring" for example. All in the eyes of a beholder.

2) Spins and step sequences also have an objective criteria for leveling. Maybe in jump-less events they will be leveled more accurately. Because now I see that sometimes (or even often) tech panels level these elements not very accurate and based on jump content difficulty as well...

They are currently evaluated way less objectively than jumps. At least most triples are usually triples, and most quads are actually quads, while we see quite a few spins that obviously do not attend lv 4 criteria still get a lv 4 and so on.
 
They are currently evaluated way less objectively than jumps. At least most triples are usually triples, and most quads are actually quads, while we see quite a few spins that obviously do not attend lv 4 criteria still get a lv 4 and so on.

Yeah...I love ice dancing as an art form but hate the pecking order (reputation based) judging it is plagued by. I think the sport is slowly fixing itself and going into a more technical based judging criteria. Thank god. I pray the phrase ”mature” is phased out like outdated once socially accepted turn of phrases.

I see the sport growing among younger fans and I think the higher ups are starting to get it. If we can just grow a little more boldly in terms of embracing technology and social media the sport may see a real resurgence. What we need though are fans of the sport and not of individual skaters and styles. The quad is just one avenue for the sport to grow. Others will come with it as the sport continues to evolve itself. Like it always has.
 
I pray that the sport is never judged simply by jumps, such as quads.

I pray that we never consider those elements to be the only “objective” means of evaluating technical expertise in figure skating.

If “technical” refers only to jumps and how they are evaluated, then the sport shall surely never grow among the younger fans (at least the ones I know) and the audience become smaller and smaller. Thankfully, with new judging criteria that seems to rely less on simply trying to rotate a quad, the higher ups seem to get that.

And my opinion is as valid, or as invalid, as anyone else’s opinion. ETA: Based on the people I know:)

and if ladies jump quads as part of a mature, balanced, technically adept at spinning and footwork and musicality program, all power to them. That will grow the sport more than jumping on ice.:biggrin:
 
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I pray that the sport is never judged simply by jumps, such as quads.

I pray that we never consider those elements to be the only “objective” means of evaluating technical expertise in figure skating.

Exactly. It drives me nuts when folks reduce perfectly good skaters to only being jumpers. Or say that’s all their skating offers. I can’t really think of very many and maybe even no one dimensional skaters these days. We see people reduced to only being jumpers or performers all the time. These are the people I think that are “judging” the sport simply by jumps.
 
I keep saying: people, stop trying to make an ice dance out of figure skating.

Jumps are the same figure skating elements as many others: spirals, variations of spread-eagles, spins, walley jumps and etc. How can you call yourself a figure skater if you can't even do a single-rotation jumps? Single axel, walley jump or single salchow for instance - they all are jumps.

Single Salchow was created by Ulrich Salchow back in 1909. Quoting here: "the salchow is accomplished with a takeoff from the back inside edge of one foot and a landing on the back outside edge of the opposite foot". It is about sudden change of direction, foot and edge, and it is performed with a hop. Sounds familiar to some transitions and steps, huh? Single jumps are just a "transition with a hop", so to speak. With time as sport had been progressing it became harder to decide who is a better skater, so athletes had stared to add more rotations in those single jumps, but in essence jumps were and still are most beautiful figure skating elements. Jump is just another element of figure skating, what else to add here? Jumps making figure skating sport appealing and exciting. Risky and dramatic.

Last time I checked figure skating is still a sport. Therefore it is still should be judged by athletic abilities and trained skills. Jumps are not tricks. It is a skill. Jumps are harder to master to get stability in performing them. Jumps are riskier to train, definitely requires a special talent and athletic ability. Training jumps takes a lot of time. And pain. And risk of injury. Because it is a professional sport. Skills and talents in figure skating takes times to develop, that's why they are starting early at 3-4 years old with the basics, doing many countless correlated and leading exercises to develop balance, precision, air awareness, footwork coordination. Obviously SS and transitions are easier and less risky to perfect. If figure skating wants to be part of Olympics than medal distribution should still be based on athletic abilities, natural talent/genetics and hard training. Otherwise everybody will be able to do it and figure skating would not be a high-performance sport requiring a special coordination abilities as it is now.

Current generation of quadsters or top-jumpers (like with 3Lz-3Lo) - both male and female - usually are very talented and genetically gifted athletes, they are very special people. They spend countless hours and hours of mastering all elements of figure skating: jumps, spins, steps, transitions, upper-body choreography. Some of them are more gifted in something like jumps, others - in spins or transitions. Matter of personal talent and how their coaches are investing time in recognizing and developing those skills. Most current quadsters do have great SS and perform their ultra-C jumps with difficult transitions in and out of jumps. They spend countless hours and hours of mastering all elements of figure skating, they just happen to have a talent for a good jump genetics so to speak - fast rotating speed, good pop, air awareness, high coordination and a cat-like ability to land on their feet. Highly developed vestibular apparatus is a genetics and a lot of training/developing. This is what sport is all about.

We need to distinguish why skater-A is more talented and trained harder than skater-B. Otherwise figure skating would be not a sport, but an art form like ballet or something, and skaters still be doing single axels and single toe loops. Why does one need to add extra rotation into an element if you cant get a medal for it? They do some kind of elements similar to axels in ballet. But ballet is not a judged form and not a sport at all. We can see some sort of axel jump in gymnastics sometimes too, but it is rare now. But those are not judged as sport elements, IRCC not even as a dance element. in current CoP. I can't imagine some gym fans saying: "Triple Back Somersault in Men's gymnastics are so overrated and boring to watch, *yawn* we want to see hundreds of split-jump elements and wolf turns of various ugliness on FX every single competition instead of amazingly difficult tumblings". If you are a figure skating fan my advice is simple: try to watch figure skating live. Not on TV or twitter/forum flame fandom war. Try to see at least triple-triple combo up close. Or at least go to your ice rink (local mall or smth) and see any local figure skater training in person, see them jumping triples in front of you. It will leave you breathless. Quads jumped in front of you will blow you away. It is power, height, distance, rapid rotation. Quads are amazing. I know it is hard to get into figure skating competitions now - tickets prices are ridiculously high. Jumps are the most amazing and spectacular elements of figure skating, there is a good reason why they are showing slow-mo replays of jumps (almost) exclusively on tv-broadcasting. Well, with some intro and outro choreo, but the rest of the replays are jumps, jumps, jumps in slow-mo. This is what we like to watch.

Triples and quads are the most amazing elements of figure skating. Period. Not all figure skating elements are performed solemnly with at least of one blade on the ice. Besides toe loop, salchow, loop, euler, flip, lutz, axel there are many-many other figure skating elements which are performed with a hop or some kind of a jump when 2 feet are off the ice. They are considered as a transition or step element sometimes. If you are serious figure skating fan and/or doing figure skating yourself you should know about them. ;) So "jumps" in figure skating are not just triple axels and quad toes, but many other jumps. We can't disregard or devaluate all jumps as elements. Without jumps there would be no figure skating, it would be "figure running" or smth. :D Of wait. We have that already. :biggrin:

In short: jump per se is a big deal in figure skating and a very beautiful element on itself. Whatever the amount of rotation some jumps have, they all are hard to master and to perfect, and very risky to perform, therefore jumps are rewarding to land for competitive purposes. And this is the way it should be if figure skating wants should still be a sport. Any single-rotation jump is harder to learn than almost any step or transition element. You know if you tried FS in the past. We need progress and difficulty upgrade in figure skating just like in any sport. Otherwise it is not a sport any more.

Difference between gold-silver-bronze (or off the podium place) should still be differentiated by athletic performance. Yet it still should be beautiful and cares a certain artistic minimum level for television and aesthetic purposes, but in essence it is still a sport nonetheless. Otherwise we will be stuck in fighting and endless pages of arguing about who is more artistic or has nicer deep edges and a cute smile & dimples. Which is very subjective and correlates a lot with local taste, culture, traditions and aesthetic preferences. If everyone would still be doing clean LP with 7 triples and triple-triple combos and double axel in the next 3 years.. It will be nightmare pretty soon. It is a bit already. Currently ~50 female skaters in the world now are capeble of doing clean LP with 7 triples and double axel. Pretty soon it would be nearly impossible to figure out the winner without pissing off any big part of the figure skating community. Disaster for any sport. Everyone are jumping difficult triples and a lot of ladies are capalbe of high-scoring triple-triple combos now like 3Lz-3Lo or 3S-3Lo. I mean like approximately 20 Russians, 20 Japaneses and 10 of the rest ladies field are capable of those difficult triple-triple now. Soon all o them will be able to do a clean SP and LP full of those hard jumps. How are we going to decide the medals in this situation soon? We will be stuck in subjectivity and constant state of scandals regarding "who wuz robbed (yet again) and who is more artistic". IOC will def kick out figure skating out of Olympics this time and replace it with some cyber games or whatever kids are playing and watching online now. The audience will be bigger than figure skating right off the bat, therefore more commercially profitable for IOC and sponsors. Win win for IOC and global corporation proud partners.

Some are naturally more coordinated than others. That's life. I vaguely remember TAT saying something like: "If you can't jump high - go to Pairs. Can't jump at all - go to Ice Dance. Can't skate with good deep edges - go for a coaching career. Can't teach figure skating - grab a shovel and start cleaning ice and locker rooms. Can't do even that - well, your road is to be a figure skating judge then". Can't agree with her more. :) Whatever you say and think about or personally want from figure skaters - this is your personal taste and choice, but figure skaters are athletes first and only then artists. Figure skating is a sport, not a show. That's why we love sports - to watch people compete at the top of their abilities and what is humanly possible. It is drama and suspense. For a nice show and more artistry one should watch ice dance. Or better yet - buy yourself and your friends tickets to ice shows. Ice shows are widely available in almost every other country now. Go to a show, so you favorite figure skater will get paid, and you can support them skating outside of competitive sport and their athletic career.
 
In my opinion, figure skating is the epitome of athleticism and artistry combined into one. You cannot have one without the other. Despite the quads, triple-triple jumps, and axels, the way a skater presents themselves, moves to the music, and interprets their piece is an integral part of the medium. Likewise, the way a skater performs in conjunction with how they jump and how fearless, competitive, and athletic they are is what makes figure skating so thrilling and enthralling. By boxing these skaters into a niche, we're losing a part of what makes figure skating... figure skating. At the end of the day, ask any skater and they will tell you how important both aspects are and that you cannot have one without the other. Yes, maybe jumps are more heavily factored into a program than artistry, but that's why we have such a wide variety of different skaters who value different characteristics and excel at it. If you don't like watching a jump infested program, then go watch a skater known for their artistry. If you don't like an artistic skater because they lack the jumps or consistency, then go watch a skater who is known for being a jumping bean. It is all up to you because you choose what you value and want to watch, not others.
 
Alternative to appreciating athleticism of more gifted and more coordinated by nature figure skaters is only one - Ice Dance. Or ice shows. Buy tickets and support artistry of your favorite figure skaters directly by that. Ice shows are televised as well. Watch it and advice you friends. More views = more sponsors and more money for your favorite skaters. But in sports it is still should be about athletic abilities and sport genetics. There is a "balletic skaters" and a skaters with a cat righting reflex. I prefer the later. :cool:
 
Exactly. It drives me nuts when folks reduce perfectly good skaters to only being jumpers. Or say that’s all their skating offers. I can’t really think of very many and maybe even no one dimensional skaters these days. We see people reduced to only being jumpers or performers all the time. These are the people I think that are “judging” the sport simply by jumps.

Yeah.. People who are hating on quad jumpers are probably not watching figure skating for long or can't appreciate those hard and beautiful transitions quadsters (male and feamle) are doing into and out of the their quads. :) Most of quadsters now - both male and female - have a great SS - they routinely showcasing deep edges and complex combinations of transitions along their quads.
 
Yeah...I love ice dancing as an art form but hate the pecking order (reputation based) judging it is plagued by. I think the sport is slowly fixing itself and going into a more technical based judging criteria. Thank god. I pray the phrase ”mature” is phased out like outdated once socially accepted turn of phrases.

Exactly. With every year ice dance is becoming less and less competitive and more subjective. There is a strict hierarchy and reputation system of silent rules there. Most of artistry is very subjective there. Who has a better boyish look and a cute smiles and dimples. And therefore in the eyes of the fans has better style or deeper edge. :)
 
Yeah...I love ice dancing as an art form ... I pray the phrase ”mature” is phased out like outdated once socially accepted turn of phrases.

Wait. Are you saying that there is no such thing as "artistic maturity."

Is Beethoven's First Symphony the equal of his Ninth?

Alexz said:
]Without jumps there would be no figure skating, it would be "figure running" or smth. :D

No, it would be figure skating. Tracing figures on the ice. You know -- figure skating.

But I hope that you are right in believing that young audiences will come to enjoy watching people jump high and spin around fast while wearing ice skates. We will have to wait and see, fingers crossed.
 
I think I will just add an interesting thought that came to me a year ago..

Figure skating might be the only sport where testosterone level does not really matter much. Jumps and SS dont really depend on muscles or muscle power. Here is the thought: we potentially can have mixed genders competitions in sports. My guesstimate is that ladies in 3-8 years will be jumping quads as good as men.

Remember the recent sad development in Caster Semenya. The twisted politics of testosterone are already in sports. Soon perhaps they will be demanding females with naturally higher testosterone levels compete in Men's categories in sports like boxing, power lifting and etc. And vice versa males with lower testosterone will be allowed to compete with females. It is a slippery slope what they are doing. I feel for Caster Semenya. It is not her fault she was born this way. And the fault of her female counterparts.

My main idea is: fortunately in figure skating famels and males potentially will be equals. Soon. IMHO.
 
Wait. Are you saying that there is no such thing as "artistic maturity."
.

and how does one measure that competitively?

ETA: I mean how does one measure artistry for competative sports so 99% of fans from all existing fandoms would agree on?
 
ETA: I mean how does one measure artistry for competative sports so 99% of of all existing fandoms would agree?

Dunno.

I was trying to make a different point. On the quad issue, you are preaching to the choir. Obviously you, me, and everyone who reads Golden Skate likes to see exciting and demanding jumps. The question is whether future generations of youthful sports fans will be energized to take up an interest is figure skating, or whether -- quad though we may -- skating as a spectator sport will wither on the vine.

I fear that without a commitment to the artistic component -- however hard to quantify -- people will turn their attention to other sports and leave figure skating behind.
 
No, it would be figure skating. Tracing figures on the ice. You know -- figure skating.

But I hope that you are right in believing that young audiences will come to enjoy watching people jump high and spin around fast while wearing ice skates. We will have to wait and see, fingers crossed.

Jumps are also figures. They leave a very distinguishable traces on the ice.


ObvIously, audience is attracted to edgy and interesting choreo first. As an introduction and a first appeal to the figure skating sport. But then they will learn about elements and rules of the sport. Like many of them now. Certainly there always will be discussions and big digree of disagreement on results. New fans will start asking and arguing: "Why skater-A with (allegedly) better artistry is not winning skater-B who has a more difficult tech content?" And this isn a very good moment when they should be helped to learn the rules. Like some of them are doing now actually. Be sepnding time on learning the rules and biographies of some of their favorites new-comers are getting invested in this sport and therefore getting hooked. Difficult jumps as elements of figure skating brings sense of risk, drama and suspense to the sport. People are marvel on difficult spectacular elements in other individual sports. Nice choreo and difficult elements - 2 big things which brings new fans into the sport. But sport drama and athletic unpredictability is what keeping fans in fans in the sport. This making them learn the sport and its history and get connected with the sport even more.

National feds are also should be more proactive in making figure skating sport more glamorous (like they do in Japan and China - tv shows, fluff pieces and stuff) and more accessible at earlier novice levels (like in Russia for instance). This will bring parents and their kids into FS sport. In US figure skating is still an elitists' sport. For whites, rich and priveleged so to speak, sorry. Have you seen any US skater who is not White or not Asian (and not Asian American in first generation, except Alysa) OR any US skater coming from a very modest family background and low income? Figure skating is expensive, I get it. Even in Russia. But at least in Russia virtually all the parents can have a chance to enroll their kids in figure skating at the very young age. Just for a small symbolical fee - like couple $hundreds a year. It cost here an arm and a leg even for 3 times a week entry kid's level of FS. In Russia sport infrastracrure for kids is supported by state or now more oftenly by a city budget. They are calling it "health groups". Kids are getting just basic skating and moslty fun time on ice. Imho, it is better to have kids doing sports at young ages than leaving them with their earphones blazing at their playstations and devices. Kid or parent just pick a sport and go for it for 6-7 years. Mainly for reasons to be healthy, active and for harmonical body development. Helathy body - healthy mind, they say. Around the age of 9-10 years old this is where it can get serious - parents of kids which showing strong potential in FS sport are advived to consider athletic career to try to enroll in pro sport. The rest of kids continue with academics and graudually quiting sports at teen ages to focus more on studies. 9-10 years old and an athletic talent - this is where it can start getting expensive and challenging for the whole family in Russia. But at least the potential of a kid is already clear - talent is there and he/she/they can enroll in elite groups like Mishin, Eteri, Panova, CSKA and few others. More often those groups are even trying to low-income families to relocate and accomodate their kid. Versus what we have in the state: it is financially challenging at the very beginning - even if you are an upper middle class of US it is financially hard just to get your kiddo into figure skating sport at entry level for a good skating coaching for a few years to entertain your kid and keep him active/busy just to find out 5 years later if is there any talent by a chance. Havimg such a high financial requirement at the entry level US is making impossible for many potential young talents to even try this sport. This drastically shrinking the pool of talent to pick from. USFSA is doing excatly nothing to even scout and send promising youngsters to elite fs coaches. It seems they are stuck into coaches dramas (who doesnt get along with whom), few tv shows, clan wars, gossips and who-abused-whom drama. NA used to have a great jumping school. What is up with it now? Sometimes I feel like Michele Kwan and Sasha Cohen at their prime would outjump and outskate (and articticaly outperform) the current NA ladies field if we time travel them into curent reality. They will do well internationally too.

Speaking of history and quads... I can post some infographics later on quads phenomenon in Mens field at Olympics staring from 2010 to 2018. The amount of athletes ladning and performing clean (or cleanish) SP and FS with crazy amount of quads. Just look at Men's podiums of the recent 4-5 years - almost all of them are top quadsters with great SS and great artistry. Quads were critizied and feared (to kill artistry in the sport) back in 2010. Same cries of help and "artistry debate" were taking place. And look a the Men's quad field now. There have been almost no random skaters on the Worlds of]r GPF men's podium with bad jumps and bad artistry for the last 5-6 years or more. Ladies are getting there. That's just the begining. Pretty soon (3-8 years) in terms of jumping tech and BV content laidies will be on par or at least comparable to top-6 male skaters of nowadays. Figure skating schools worldwide just need to pick up and start training kids accordingly. Japan and Russia are ahead. US is picking up (re:Alysa Liu for a starters). Canada is still pushing artistry and a mythical "excuisite Canadian way of slidding and choreography that make sense" (apparently only Canadians are buying it, while the rest of the world is just learning jumps. Look at the promising Italian junior men! Few guys have stable beautiful quads of different types).
 
Dunno.

I was trying to make a different point. On the quad issue, you are preaching to the choir. Obviously you, me, and everyone who reads Golden Skate likes to see exciting and demanding jumps. The question is whether future generations of youthful sports fans will be energized to take up an interest is figure skating, or whether -- quad though we may -- skating as a spectator sport will wither on the vine.

I fear that without a commitment to the artistic component -- however hard to quantify -- people will turn their attention to other sports and leave figure skating behind.

Well. We are energized and interested in quads in Men's field. I am, aren't you? Certainly rules are still dictate some certain level of artistry and minimal artistic skill levels (MI, PE, CH) to be meet in order to get high PCS. You dont have a bare minumum - public will dislike you and judges will slash you at PCS. How ever many quads you might have landed clean. Results of the recent (5-10+ years) of Worlds and GPF Men's poduim showed there were no "just quadsters" with bad SS and poor artistry. IJS works. Although there are traditional talks about placements and color of the medal here and there ocasionally. But imagine there would be no quads now, and dozen of men will be skating CLEAN SP and FS with only triple-triple. We will be at each other throats fighting about which skaters have "better artistry". If that even possible to judge - "more artistry or less artistry".
 
Wait. Are you saying that there is no such thing as "artistic maturity."

Is Beethoven's First Symphony the equal of his Ninth?.

No I get that. I think maturity can bring extra dimension and offer a sense of depth to a performer. I also think we’re seeing the use and placements of jumps maturing in terms of how the entrances and exits are being treated. Holding a nice long edge can be a great thing to see after a landing but so too is seeing blistering transitions. I think when all is is said and done were seeing a good mix these days although on an individual basis it’s not always so.

I think my point was a little overstated. Obviously skaters will develop in time and mature. That’s natural. Now how many points that’s worth....I don’t mind what the judges have been doing. I think for example Sasha offers far more than she often gets credit for. Like if the most mature skater ever earned 10 pts for a hypothetical Maturity component I’d still give her a solid 7 at least for her better performances.

+3 for the “more mature” skater :hb:
 
I think I will just add an interesting thought that came to me a year ago..


My main idea is: fortunately in figure skating famels and males potentially will be equals. Soon. IMHO.

I don't think that is going to happen. The men are better jumpers. Triple axels are easy for most of the senior men but still fairly elusive for the ladies. We'll see if quads become more than a rarity with female skaters. I have my doubts. I am fairly certain there will never be a female skater at the technical level of the top men, like Hanyu, Chen and Uno.
 
In US figure skating is still an elitists' sport. For whites, rich and priveleged so to speak, sorry. Have you seen any US skater who is not White or not Asian (and not Asian American in second-third generation, except Alysa) OR any US skater coming from a very modest family background and low income?

Michelle Kwan. First generation Asian, her family owned a restaurant. Same with Mirai Nagasu.
 
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