Women and the Quad

[ruga]

I usually complain about the work of Technical Panel and judges only when it affects the result (e.g. WC 19, I was really angry after seeing that TP was sleeping during the whole ladies FS and the difference between 2-5 places was bit more than a point). Here you could have called both Alysa's 3A and 4Lz as downgraded and the result would have been the same. The only "problem" is that she now has a ratified 4Lz, but it doesn't really matter as this won't go to any Wikipedia pages of firsts since Sasha landed it earlier.

 

[jenaj]

I see it didn’t take long for the detractors to appear on Alysa’s quad. One problem with these analyses is that they usually are based on pre-rotation, something the judging doesn’t take into account. And still photos prove nothing to me. I saw the jump in real time and slo-mo and, like the judges, I did not see an under-rotation. BTW, I’m still wondering how the USFSA manages to manipulate the judging, as some claim.

 

[neud]

I see it didn’t take long for the detractors to appear on Alysa’s quad. One problem with these analyses is that they usually are based on pre-rotation, something the judging doesn’t take into account. And still photos prove nothing to me. I saw the jump in real time and slo-mo and, like the judges, I did not see an under-rotation.

"Based on pre-rotation"?
https://media.giphy.com/media/WmWcD2iGwjaAshvL7T/giphy.gif

 

[jenaj]

"Based on pre-rotation"?
https://media.giphy.com/media/WmWcD2iGwjaAshvL7T/giphy.gif

Yes, with a compass to measure the degrees.

 

[neud]

You don't need a compass to see 160-180 degrees underrotation here.

 

[jenaj]

180? You think it’s a downgrade? Puleeze!

 

[katymay]

You don't need a compass to see 160-180 degrees underrotation here.

This view appears that it is mega under rotated. Much more so than the Sasha 4L that wasn't ratified last year. But when I was watching live, I didn't see this, it looked good to me from that camera point of view. It almost seemed easy peasy. Part of it is that Alysa rotates so fast-it seems like she barely gets up off the ice, and yet her rotation speed really is astounding.

 

[yume]

I usually complain about the work of Technical Panel and judges only when it affects the result (e.g. WC 19, I was really angry after seeing that TP was sleeping during the whole ladies FS and the difference between 2-5 places was bit more than a point). Here you could have called both Alysa's 3A and 4Lz as downgraded and the result would have been the same. The only "problem" is that she now has a ratified 4Lz, but it doesn't really matter as this won't go to any Wikipedia pages of firsts since Sasha landed it earlier.

I think the problem is that she has now a reputation different from what she would have get if she had received a call on her first 3A, the 4lz and at least on onee 3-3. She would have been seen as a skater that have issues with rotations. So maybe TP in next competitions would have give a closer look on her jumps. Now she is seen as a skater who can perfectly rotate a 4lz, 3A and difficult 3-3s. And who can score that big. And that makes a big difference.
Reputation is very important.

 

[bubblecherry]

This view appears that it is mega under rotated. Much more so than the Sasha 4L that wasn't ratified last year. But when I was watching live, I didn't see this, it looked good to me from that camera point of view. It almost seemed easy peasy. Part of it is that Alysa rotates so fast-it seems like she barely gets up off the ice, and yet her rotation speed really is astounding.

People tend to forget that if a jump looks clean in real time, it's not reviewed, therefore it will not be called UR. When I saw it in real time, I thought "wow, almost looks like she checked out early" then when it played in slowmo a few times, I thought "Oh, maybe it's slightly UR. Oh, definitely UR"

Not everything is a conspiracy. It looked clean in real time and she got a good landing out of it, that's why it wasn't called. That doesn't mean no one can discuss her flawed technique, but the obsession with being a detractor, nitpicking, and becoming conspiracy theorists re: Alysa (ESPECIALLY from the crowd who claimes prerotation and UR didn't exist last year when ladies were doing quads) is just ridiculous. I've even seen people talk about Alysa's family history in a disparaging way, because of skating related things. Some people definitely have to do better.

 

[Lunalovesskating]

Here is the gif versions too

Where was your outrage when Sasha's UR was not called? https://twitter.com/Fran_klymydear/status/1168156290344005632?s=20
Alena could have gotten silver

 

[nussnacker]

People tend to forget that if a jump looks clean in real time, it's not reviewed, therefore it will not be called UR. When I saw it in real time, I thought "wow, almost looks like she checked out early" then when it played in slowmo a few times, I thought "Oh, maybe it's slightly UR. Oh, definitely UR"

Not everything is a conspiracy. It looked clean in real time and she got a good landing out of it, that's why it wasn't called. That doesn't mean no one can discuss her flawed technique, but the obsession with being a detractor, nitpicking, and becoming conspiracy theorists re: Alysa (ESPECIALLY from the crowd who claimes prerotation and UR didn't exist last year when ladies were doing quads) is just ridiculous. I've even seen people talk about Alysa's family history in a disparaging way, because of skating related things. Some people definitely have to do better.

I see your point.
If a tech caller didn't see it in real-time it sure makes the claims that panels were kind to Alysa seem like silly conspiracy theories.
However, maybe others did see it in real-time and it was really glaring and obvious to the point of them not understanding how tech panel might have missed it.
We all see things differently.

I do think the panel was biased in this competition and gave questionable calls and levels, and it's not really a conspiracy. We've all seen local athletes being favored on their home soil numerous times before, isn't it kind of expected to be seen anyways?

I don't think people are picking on PR too much, most are saying that it wasn't fully rotated, which I think isn't an incorrect statement.
But if you read this thread, 90% of it is people arguing that Trusova has fake cheated quads, that 60 cm of height of her quads is too low for a quad, how her quads are small, how quads aren't interesting to them and are destroying this sport...so... the level of outrage was on a whole different level before. btw, I wonder what those people will say now

People picking on Alysa was expected (at least I did expect it will come), and imo, isn't that unjustified, at least when it comes to URs, height/distance/coverage/speed.
The PR is excessive, and it is for many ladies as of now, so picking on PR is kinda hypocritical and I don't get it.
We're not going to see the first quads by ladies being done with an amazing textbook quality, the same way we didn't see many first triples done by ladies being perfect.
I certainly never expected to see perfection right off the bat.
People going after Alysa on her social media and going after her personal life need to take a seat. :whack:
It's just figure skating, it's not that important, let the girl live. Discuss it on the forum and leave it there.

 

[zounger]

This thread is fun

 

[bubblecherry]

I see your point.
If a tech caller didn't see it in real-time it sure makes the claims that panels were kind to Alysa seem like silly conspiracy theories.
However, maybe others did see it in real-time and it was really glaring and obvious to the point of them not understanding how tech panel might have missed it.
We all see things differently.

I do think the panel was biased in this competition and gave questionable calls and levels, and it's not really a conspiracy. We've all seen local athletes being favored on their home soil numerous times before, isn't it kind of expected to be seen anyways?

I don't think people are picking on PR too much, most are saying that it wasn't fully rotated, which I think isn't an incorrect statement.
But if you read this thread, 90% of it is people arguing that Trusova has fake cheated quads, that 60 cm of height of her quads is too low for a quad, how her quads are small, how quads aren't interesting to them and are destroying this sport...so... the level of outrage was on a whole different level before. btw, I wonder what those people will say now

People picking on Alysa was expected (at least I did expect it will come), and imo, isn't that unjustified, at least when it comes to URs, height/distance/coverage/speed.
The PR is excessive, and it is for many ladies as of now, so picking on PR is kinda hypocritical and I don't get it.
We're not going to see the first quads by ladies being done with an amazing textbook quality, the same way we didn't see many first triples done by ladies being perfect.
I certainly never expected to see perfection right off the bat.
People going after Alysa on her social media and going after her personal life need to take a seat. :whack:
It's just figure skating, it's not that important, let the girl live. Discuss it on the forum and leave it there.

I actually agree with basically everything you said. The ladies quads we've seen in competition thus far have not been of the same quality of say, Nathan or Yuzuru, but no one (man or woman) has the same quality as them. We can discuss PR & UR and badly judged calls, but we should also keep in mind that these are still incredibly talented and courageous young women who are moving the sport forward, even if they aren't flawless in their technique or execution. I expect all of them to improve, but even if they didn't, they are pioneering this incredible tech that WILL lead to women with better quads in the future. That's certainly still a big deal. I don't blame people for being angry about bad calls, but a lot of the arguments around it become really aggressive (+ hypocritical) and in this thread in particular, we're usually talking about children, it'd be nice if we could all be more understanding and encouraging rather than completely disparaging. Sounds like a nice dream doesn't it?

 

[zounger]

I actually agree with basically everything you said. The ladies quads we've seen in competition thus far have not been of the same quality of say, Nathan or Yuzuru, but no one (man or woman) has the same quality as them.

I like Kolyada's quads more than theirs when he lands them.

 

[yume]

I wonder why some people are outraged that other people are outraged by Alysas uncalled URs. People were outraged to their souls against Trusova's quads the two previous seasons and will still outraged this season. The outrage against Alysa's jumps was predictable and is fair compared to the outrage against Trusova's jumps.
We should be used to outrage.

 

[nussnacker]

I actually agree with basically everything you said. The ladies quads we've seen in competition thus far have not been of the same quality of say, Nathan or Yuzuru, but no one (man or woman) has the same quality as them. We can discuss PR & UR and badly judged calls, but we should also keep in mind that these are still incredibly talented and courageous young women who are moving the sport forward, even if they aren't flawless in their technique or execution. I expect all of them to improve, but even if they didn't, they are pioneering this incredible tech that WILL lead to women with better quads in the future. That's certainly still a big deal. I don't blame people for being angry about bad calls, but a lot of the arguments around it become really aggressive (+ hypocritical) and in this thread in particular, we're usually talking about children, it'd be nice if we could all be more understanding and encouraging rather than completely disparaging. Sounds like a nice dream doesn't it?

It sure does... This witch haunt after these girls doing quads with PR (esp. by self-proclaimed "influencers/experts" lmao) is frankly ridiculous and funny, given how many triples are prerotated.
Moreover, I think the prerotation claims made by "the experts" are heavily exaggerated, it's as if only 4 levels exist:90-180-270-360 and they go by the biggest number they can possibly give it. But whatever
I completely agree that people should be more encouraging and appreciate what these girls are doing.
Discussing technique is fine, but calling these quads "triples", saying it ruins the sport is a little degrading and completely unnecessary.
To me, it seems like a deliberate effort to be hurtful and hateful and not to recognize what actually happened.
It's still a quad, even when it comes with a carrot.

 

[Mathman]

I see your point.

If a tech caller didn't see it in real-time it sure makes the claims that panels were kind to Alysa seem like silly conspiracy theories.

However, maybe others did see it in real-time and it was really glaring and obvious to the point of them not understanding how tech panel might have missed it.

We all see things differently.

That is what makes me smile when people go on and on about how"obvious" it all is. That cannot be true. If it were "obvious," then people would not disagree. Instead, we have a situation where half of the observers see an "obvious" underrotation and half see a well-executed jump.

This includes the tech specialists and (as far as we can tell from the protocols) the entirety of the judging panel. (If an individual judge thinks a jump is underrotated the judge can impose a reduction in GOE whether the tech panel calls anything or not. Alysa Liu got positive GOEs on her 4Lz from all nine judges.

To me, it is just beyond possibility that the jump was "obviously" underrotaed by 180 degrees. (it may have been underroted, of course, but the underrotation was not "obvious" to many qualified observers.)

One problem with still pictures and frame by frame videos is that the skaters are spinning so fast that even from one frame to the next (not to mention one camera angle to the next) there might a difference of many degrees of rotation -- to say nothing of how it looks in real time. Is she really on the ice in this frame, or is she still a millimeter above it?

(I know, I know -- it's obvious)

By the way, Alysa got a total of 0.65 points (counting the fall deduction) for her downgraded triple Axel. The mistake was obvious.

 

[nussnacker]

That is what makes me smile when people go on and on about how"obvious" it all is. That cannot be true. If it were "obvious," then people would not disagree. Instead, we have a situation where half of the observers see an "obvious" underrotation and half see a well-executed jump.

This includes the tech specialists and (as far as we can tell from the protocols) the entirety of the judging panel. (If an individual judge thinks a jump is underrotated the judge can impose a reduction in GOE whether the tech panel calls anything or not. Alysa Liu got positive GOEs on her 4Lz from all nine judges.

To me, it is just beyond possibility that the jump was "obviously" underrotaed by 180 degrees. (it may have been underroted, of course, but the underrotation was not "obvious" to many qualified observers.)

One problem with still pictures and frame by frame videos is that the skaters are spinning so fast that even from one frame to the next (not to mention one camera angle to the next) there might a difference of many degrees of rotation -- to say nothing of how it looks in real time. Is she really on the ice in this frame, or is she still a millimeter above it?

(I know, I know -- it's obvious)

By the way, Alysa got a total of 0.65 points (counting the fall deduction) for her downgraded triple Axel. The mistake was obvious.

I'm not saying anything about myself I'm explaining the possible perspective of people being non-understanding to why the panel didn't call it.

 

[max bensen]

“Never assume the obvious is true.”
― [FONT=Lato, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif]William Safire[/FONT]

[FONT=helvetica neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]I do so love fans - they remind me of stage parents or those apoplectic fathers on the side of soccer matches - entirely lacking perspective but providing delightful entertainment for the rest of us[/FONT]

 

[natsulian]

I’ve been waiting for this day since June when we first saw Alysa land a 4Lz at a summer camp. Ya’ll DO NOT disappoint.

To me, it is painfully obvious that Alysa is a Martian who has come to Earth to destroy the planet. While we’re at it, I think she’s the one behind climate change. I hear that whenever Alysa pre-rotates or under-rotates a quad, the global temperature rises by 1 degrees Celsius.

Also, remember when people said Alysa will never get a 2A because her Axel technique is so bad? Remember when people said she will never land a clean 3A because her 2A technique is so bad? Remember when people said Alysa will never land a quad because her Lutz technique is so bad? Remember when people said she will not win a single Junior Grand Prix event? I do. And every single time, Alysa proved the detractors WRONG.

Have fun flaming 14 and 15 year olds who are out there making history whilst the rest of you have nothing better to do than sit and hate. At least constructively critique her technique without resorting to cowardly low-blows. We can criticize Alysa for her short comings, but what we cannot do is send hateful comments.