Where are the Boys in the Forum?

[debdelilah]

Is Plushenko doomed? Now theres a guy who can get 72 pages of comments.
But you are all correct. The girlie sport wins out in Forums. Red blooded Americans boys are busy with the Sports pages, and not all that interested in costumes and divorces.

Joe

Joe, you confuse me--first talking about ballet and Yukina Ota, then talking about "girlie sports" being just pageants. Obviously, a lot of talk this season has been about women's 3-3s and 3As. Women's skating is judged by COP the same as men's. And if you look at male skaters who are 16 or 17--the age of many of the female top competitors this season--few of them are strong on artistry. Shizuka Arakawa was hardly a pageant participant...Yukari Nakano is very musical...Kimmie Meissner seems to deliberately avoid the "wear as much makeup as possible and look like someone else's idea of a lady" concept. I like men's skating as much as the next person, but the phrase "red-blooded American boys" makes me cringe as much as the word "pageant" if you know what I mean.

 

[SeaniBu]

Is Plushenko doomed? Now theres a guy who can get 72 pages of comments.
But you are all correct. The girlie sport wins out in Forums. Red blooded Americans boys are busy with the Sports pages, and not all that interested in costumes and divorces.

Joe

Well, guys are going to get mentioned, talked about, admired too. But girls do seem to rule the attention of the sport in the USA at the least. Which makes perfect sense to me regarding this sport, just like basketball or even Amr. Football (Soccer), awareness and admiration is there for the ladies in those sports, but the guys hog the spotlight. Tennis is one that I never could say one is more popular than the other, but I think some of its popularity comes solely from guys liking to watch the ladies - just like volleyball. I don't think 90% viewer / spectatorship would exist if there weren't the "scantily clothed" events in volleyball.

I think guys are more interested in Costumes and Divorces then they like to lead on. But most aren't going to be that open about it. And it seems Amr. women are also more interested in ladies FS then the guys, as far as following the sports / placements, etc.... I wonder why that is? Sure I hear comments, but in numbers sake I think there are more ladies posting about ladies than ladies posting about men's FS. ????? Am I wrong???

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Joe, you confuse me--first talking about ballet and Yukina Ota, then talking about "girlie sports" being just pageants. Obviously, a lot of talk this season has been about women's 3-3s and 3As. Women's skating is judged by COP the same as men's. And if you look at male skaters who are 16 or 17--the age of many of the female top competitors this season--few of them are strong on artistry. Shizuka Arakawa was hardly a pageant participant...Yukari Nakano is very musical...Kimmie Meissner seems to deliberately avoid the "wear as much makeup as possible and look like someone else's idea of a lady" concept. I like men's skating as much as the next person, but the phrase "red-blooded American boys" makes me cringe as much as the word "pageant" if you know what I mean.

debdelilah - I confuse myself.

Not sure what you mean by artistry. Some people like Rembrandt, others like Warhol. Art majors tend to like them both for various reasons.

IMO, Curry would be the most artistic of any skater but he lacked the quad and that may be the reason fans dismiss him. He was ballet-like and that is a big reason among fans of figure skating. What got me onto Curry was his musicality, his phrasing, his carriage, his ability to draw the viewer into his world. He never looked like he was after a medal. He looked like he just wanted to skate perfectly. And for me, he did.

The ladies of today think in terms of flexing their limbs to be like those in the Cirque du Soleil. Their acrobatic backs are a must to show off some sort of versatility. I believe this is what you consider neo-Artistry. ok. the times, they are a changing. I happen to believe that flexibility has become a Tech thing and not an artistic thing. Serious skaters should start flexing at age 2. JMO.

Joe

 

[SeaniBu]

The ladies of today think in terms of flexing their limbs to be like those in the Cirque du Soleil. Their acrobatic backs are a must to show off some sort of versatility. I believe this is what you consider neo-Artistry. ok. the times, they are a changing. I happen to believe that flexibility has become a Tech thing and not an artistic thing. Serious skaters should start flexing at age 2. JMO.

I see what you mean Joe, it does fit the "technical thing" more so than the artistry. It doesn't really add as far as "beauty" is concerned IMO (well I do like Shi-chan's Ina) but mostly it just adds to the technical complexity of a element or position.:agree:

 

[Tonichelle]

Are you sure of that?

well ratings have dropped drastically for the Miss America and Miss USA and Miss Universe paegents... so.... I would think it would be safe to assume that the following isn't as big as it once was.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

oh we definitely rule...

but there's something about those guys...

And Cole Porter's lyrics sung by the Shrew in the Taming of the same:

"I hate men...... but sisters, what could we do without them? I hate men".

 

[ae9177]

Speaking only for myself, I don't comment on men's skating any more because it is too contentious. Don't mention the names of Lysacek, Weir, Lambiel or Joubert unless you want to be called an idiot or a scoundrel, LOL.

you think comment on women's skating won't be contentious? and you won't be called an idiot or scoundrel when you mention kwan, cohen, slutskaya, asada, ando, kim, meissner...?

what amused me is that if the public audience of figure skating is primarily females and gays, they should be very attracted to hot, cute, handsome young guys, and we have a very goodlooking men's field nowadays. plus they can do 'tricks' most ladies can't do, like the quad, 3A and 3-3-3. why men's skating is far less popular as women's? i don't get it either.

 

[morninglight]

Are the Ladies the only interest in figure skating?

What about Johnny, Evan, Jeffrey, E-man, Abbott, Carriere, Mabee? Not to mention Daisuke, Nobunari, Plushenko, Joubert, Lambiel?

Joe

I love watching Johnny, Jeff & Lambiel skate! If not enough of them, I would certainly post more!

 

[debdelilah]

The ladies of today think in terms of flexing their limbs to be like those in the Cirque du Soleil. Their acrobatic backs are a must to show off some sort of versatility. I believe this is what you consider neo-Artistry. ok. the times, they are a changing. I happen to believe that flexibility has become a Tech thing and not an artistic thing. Serious skaters should start flexing at age 2. JMO.

Joe

I agree with you about John Curry.

But I don't think all the female skaters can be generalized as "the ladies of today" any more than the same can be said of the men. Flexibility, like footwork, jumps, any program highlight, can be used in an artistic way, or not--a guy could do footwork that just shows his technical skill, or footwork with passion. A woman with a wide variety in how she can choose to move(because of flexibility) could just do the same thing every time, or else could choose her movements to interpret the music. Actually, part of the reason I didn't like Sasha's "Hurt" program at COI is that I don't think she's interpreting the music--she gets the phrasing right at times, but the i-spin and the the spiral are celebratory(and complete with smiles) at times when the music is darkly passionate and seems to call for something with different body language. I wasn't calling Shizuka an artist like John Curry, by the way--I just was saying I don't think anyone would think of her as having a pageant participant mentality. Yukari Nakano has a unique gift with musicality I think--I love her exhibition from Japan Nationals, even though I don't like her LP much.

 

[julietvalcouer]

Well, at one board I know, every thread in which Lysacek's name is mentioned turns into a bash-Evan festival (he won, Johnny lost, get over it.) But really, I do prefer watching the men, not simply for the pulchritude but because the girls are boring these days. I have no interest in prepubescent contortionists, and have a perverse hope certain skaters will run afoul of the puberty monster before they make it too high in seniors. I don't equate pretzel-bends with technical ability or athleticism, just with being a freak of nature.

But sadly, the only interesting stuff I know to say about the men is rink hearsay at the moment (though if a certain situation isn't rectified fairly, I won't be the only one spreading it everywhere on the Internet.)

 

[Ladskater]

At first, I was not sure what you meant "where are the Boys in the Forum?" I thought maybe it was just us ladies contributing our thoughts, but now I see you mean topics on the men's discipline.

It is off season. Most Canadian's attention is on the BIG event - The Stanley Cup playoffs. Figure skating is kind of put on the back burner until the fall - unless one is a figure skater of course!!

 

[jennylovskt]

what amused me is that if the public audience of figure skating is primarily females and gays, they should be very attracted to hot, cute, handsome young guys, and we have a very goodlooking men's field nowadays. plus they can do 'tricks' most ladies can't do, like the quad, 3A and 3-3-3. why men's skating is far less popular as women's? i don't get it either.

I am trying to understand and explain it in the way I understood it, not whole, but I think I know some of the reasons.

First, females love to see the ladies' skating is because they can relate to themselves. Many young girls are learning figure skating. One of my friend's daughter (who is 8 years old) is learning skating. She loves to watch Caroline Zhang. Caroline's success gave her a lot of encouragement. The mothers love to show their daughters the successful young ladies in order to guide them. It won't be appropriate, and the mother will not like their daughters to be attracted by the young guys too early. Also, girls at such young ages would not care about the opposite sex.

Second, for the adult women who love the ladies' skating but they don't skate themselves, the interest is also coming from the above reason - they can relate. Just like the "red blooded Americans" like to watch footballs, basketballs, and car races. The appreciation of the art and the beauty is universal, totally pure, totally 100% none sexual. I love some of the ladies' skating, such as Sasha Cohen.

Third, imagine the other half who are "red blooded", do they like to see their women glued to TV and cheer, and gush the hot, cute, goodlooking guys all the time? No. The men controlled the world. The women are still fighting for the equal rights. I am kidding.

This forum had a poll late last year about the favorite disciplines. The result indicated that the percentages of people who liked ladies' and men's skating were almost the same. I was questioning it at that time that why the TV show the ladies' skating much more than the men's if people who liked ladies' and men's were half and half? My answer to my question was: 1. This poll might not reflect the real world situation. 2. If it has reflected the real world situation, the network's power-that-be totally controlled the air time by not showing enough men's skating.

I, myself, think that men's skating is far, far more interesting than the ladies' because it is more challenging, more pushing to the human limits. Just like all of you who stated earlier in this thread said, they jump higher, turn more rotations, spin faster, ... It's like after seeing the men's competitions, the ladies' competitions seemed like junior competitions. Of course, I have to admit that the goodlooking helped. What if Alexei Yagudin looked like ... I don't know ... ? I guarantee he wouldn't be as popular as he was.

 

[debdelilah]

I, myself, think that men's skating is far, far more interesting than the ladies' because it is more challenging, more pushing to the human limits. Just like all of you who stated earlier in this thread, they jump higher, turn more rotations, spin faster, ... It's like after seeing the men's competitions, the ladies' competitions seemed like junior competitions. Of course, I have to admit that the goodlooking helped. What if Alexei Yagudin looked like ... I don't know ... ? I guarantee he won't be as popular as he was.

How is women's skating less "pushing the human limits"? Considering that women have a considerably lower natural muscle mass to body mass ratio than men do, I think women's skating "pushes the human limits" more than men's does.

Women are not little boys--different maturity, different bodies, different minds. Most 20 year old women have little in common with 15 year old boys, wouldn't you think? But if women's skating does occasionally seem like juniors, it might perhaps be because some of the participants are in fact girls, not women. Boys tend to win juniors with immature programs at the same age that girls are competing at the top in seniors with immature programs, right?

 

[jennylovskt]

How is women's skating less "pushing the human limits"? Considering that women have a considerably lower natural muscle mass to body mass ratio than men do, I think women's skating "pushes the human limits" more than men's does.

Women are not little boys--different maturity, different bodies, different minds. Most 20 year old women have little in common with 15 year old boys, wouldn't you think? But if women's skating does occasionally seem like juniors, it might perhaps be because some of the participants are in fact girls, not women. Boys tend to win juniors with immature programs at the same age that girls are competing at the top in seniors with immature programs, right?

I agree. But don't you think that the preference is not coming from one's logical theories?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

First, females love to see the ladies' skating is because they can relate to themselves.

But can they root for the ladies when the competition is both male and female? I'm thinking of those 'reality shows'. like American Idol, or Dancing with the Stars, where the male contestant will win 9 out of 10 times. (The audience is mostly female.)

Joe

 

[Mathman]

I think "9 out of 10" is an exaggeration. It's more like 50-50.

Idol: Kelly Clarkson, Ruben Studdard, Fantasia Burrino, Carrie Underwood, Taylor Hicks (3 girls, 2 boys).

Dancing: Kelly Monaco, Drew Lachey, Emmitt Smith (1 girl, 2 boys).

Plus, it's not so clear why people vote as they do. Drew Lachey's claim to fame is that he is the ex-brother-in-law of Jessica Simpson. In the current show, the only reason Billy Ray Cyrus is still around is because of all the teenaged Hannah Montana fans.

As for figure skating, in the two "Skating Idol" shows the biggest vote getters were Michelle Kwan (she could hardly walk, much less skate, but she still won over both the boys and the girls) and Sasha Cohen (the overall top vote getter over Johnny Weir).

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

OK. You got it. I really don't follow those shows so I should just shut up.

As for Kwan winning over Cohen should have read 'Kwan's popularity over Cohen was the decisive result'.

Joe

 

[Zanzibar]

Speaking only for myself, I don't comment on men's skating any more because it is too contentious. Don't mention the names of Lysacek, Weir, Lambiel or Joubert unless you want to be called an idiot or a scoundrel, LOL.

Speaking only for myself, I don't comment on ladie's skating because it's too.....snooze.....but then again...I've always held that opinion. Only a skater like Katarina Witt could have held my interest - otherwise I get bored - the ladies never tell a story, don't create a sense of drama. I liked Irina because at least she was spunky and tough.

 

[SeaniBu]

Evan Speaks

http://www.columbusdispatch.com/dis...1A_LYSACEK03.ART_ART_05-04-07_D1_KH6IJMD.html

"The jumps and stunts we are doing nowadays are like an extreme sport," said Lysacek, 21. "The days of doing five doubles and just skating to pretty music are over."

 

[hockeyfan228]

After years of "one spot" left dominance by Kwan and Lipinski or Kwan and Cohen on the Nationals scene, and with Meissner often discussed almost like a default champion, there's a lot of talk about the next generation, as if the US needed a savior. The US swept the Jr. Worlds podium last year, with some strong performances by other young skaters at Jr. Nationals last year. It makes sense that there would be a number of threads about them, including strategy for next year's GP vs. JGP selections.

Weir and Lysacek have a seeming lock on two of three spots, and since the requirements to play in their league are two solid 3A's and/or a quad, I don't see a line of contenders coming up the ranks. In Pairs, Inoue/Baldwin are front-runners; Castile/Okolski haven't established consistency so far, nor have Nam/Leftheris. In dance, while Davis/White might overtake Gregory/Petukhov at Nationals, the top three are pretty solidly ahead of the next group.