Senior Ladies Need To Up The Age Requirement

[Joekaz]

People of different races also have different ways of their bodies development. Is there any race you want to discriminate?

Are you really that ignorant or are u just trolling?

 

[neud]

Are you really that ignorant or are u just trolling?

Are you?

 

[gkelly]

As I've mentioned before, I think there are at least three different "problems" to be "solved" by raising age limits:

1. Protect growing children from damaging their bodies until they reach physical and mental maturity/near adulthood
2. Emphasize skating skills that take place blade to ice with less emphasis on in-air rotation
3. Showcase the beauty of adult female women to appeal to casual (primarily hetero male) viewers who watch skating for the sex appeal, or more for artistic maturity (perhaps of more interest to adult women and gay men, if we want to generalize)

Are we aiming to protect children, to maintain standards of fundamental skating skills, or to appeal to adult viewers?

The solution to each of these issues may not be the same. So whenever a thread is started that begins by offering a solution (raise age limits) before defining which problem it's intended to solve, the discussion goes back and forth between different issues.

Why has 'technical difficulty' in figure skating been restricted to jumps? Surely there are other ways of making the sport difficult too. We could reward those as well.

Absolutely! And also other ways to make jumping difficult aside from number of rotations in the air.

When did they stop forcing the ladies to do a double jump in the SP? Wasn't that the requirement for years and years? A different double jump. Like this year it's the loop and next year it's the flip.

I could give a long history of short program rule changes over the past 47 years, much off the top of my head, but I won't interrupt this thread to do so now. To summarize the specifics that may address your question:

Between the 1973 and 1988 seasons, both men and women were required to do a specified solo double jump, and also a different specified double jump in the combination. The other jump in the combination could be double or triple.

Beginning in 1989 senior ladies could do any double jump they pleased as the solo jump. Starting in 1995 they were allowed to do any triple jump in that slot, and around the turn of the century (I don't remember if it started in 1999 or 2001 season), the senior ladies' solo jump was required to be triple.

Since the late 1990s, junior men and women have been required to do a specified solo jump in their short programs, rotating among lutz, flip, and loop. I'm not sure what the junior SP requirements were during the early-90s period when the senior solo jump was not specified.

I think the rule was in place simply because none of the ladies were doing the quad so it wasn't an issue. Now it is. I think they will have to allow it now.

With the number and success of ladies now attempting quads in their freeskates, I'm sure that the possibility of allowing quads in the short program will be up for discussion and possibly for a vote at the 2020 ISU Congress. I don't know whether it will pass then, but if so I don't expect it would take effect until the 2023 season.

I actually think that skating is becoming more monotonous under the current system. The people who win all have the same body type (or maybe two body types), the programs are very similar stylistically (lots of arm and leg flailing) and the spins are pretty boring.

I don’t think the solution is to bar 15 and 16 year olds from competing but rather to reward those skaters who make their programs different and more interesting.

I agree.

Current PCS scoring is a joke. Some skaters should be getting 0-5s.

Yes, most skaters worldwide earn 0s to 5s. But the skaters who are good enough to compete internationally tend to be better than that. We do see plenty of 5s at lower level senior competition and plenty of 4s and often 3s at junior events.

I understand your point. Once again, you are right but in theory. The jumps are not only easier for common folks to understand - tech people do review them before making their verdict. I am sure that the decision on Trusova's level 2 was made beforehand. If they looked at it that was before the competition. Because the level appeared immediately after she finished it.

Skate Canada recommendations for how tech panels should divide the work of calling singles step sequences (other federations and the ISU probably use similar procedures):

TS: Turns and the two different combinations of three difficult turns (clusters). The TS will call right/left foot for clusters and yes/no as they are happening so the ATS and TC can record it.

ATS/TC : One will look at the turns and clusters and the other will look for rotations and use of body. The individual responsible for rotation and body will say yes/no (i.e. no to body, yes to rotation) at the end of the step sequence or when achieved. The ATS and TC can do either of the roles mentioned above, as preferred....

If any of the panel members would like to review the step sequence, they will call the review after the call is made and not during the step sequence. The verification of features given and not given will be made during the review process so the TC and ATS can write them down for their notes.

It's physically impossible to count the elements change of direction degree of using the body etc in real time.

It may be impossible for you or for me, but not for former high-level skaters who have spent years practicing and in many cases even more years coaching these turns and know exactly what they should look like without having to think about it. They do get to divide the work so the same person doesn't have to count the changes of direction and also assess the amount of full body movement at the same time.

I think many are forgetting that when Kwan and Lipinski were winning, people wanted to raise the age- especially after Lipinski won the Olympics (and remains the youngest Olympic champion to date).

The big issue with changing the age limits occurred at the 1996 ISU Congress, when the current age limits went into effect with some exceptions that have since expired/been removed.

At the time the vote took place, probably foremost in the delegates' minds were Oksana Baiul winning 1993 Worlds at age 15 too young by the new rules (and then Olympics the following year -- by the new rules she would have been old enough for seniors in 1994 but if they had been in effect at that time she wouldn't have had a full year of senior experience and a world title under her belt) and Michelle Kwan winning 1996 Worlds as a third-year senior at 15 (7 days too young for seniors under the new rules), along with an impressive freeskate by 13-year-old Tara Lipinski who placed 15 at 1996 Worlds.

I.e., the 1996 changes were not a reaction to Lipinski winning, since she hadn't won anything yet, but rather to the trend of very young champions that Lipinski appeared poised to continue -- as indeed she did because of the exception that allowed her to compete as a 14-year-old senior after the rule change.

 

[el henry]

Why do you believe it's good for skaters' health to raise the age limit (and only for seniors), though?

I'm going to try to take a stab at this from what I believe is to be a non-biased view:

How do we know training quads is dangerous? We can talk about theory - like growth and the formation of bones, but all studies are conducted through experiments and analysis. To my knowledge, none of these studies have been published from a reliable source. No one has compiled a comprehensive study from the data we currently have. For something like this, we can only infer a correlation, not a causation. To do this, we'd have to look at the available data and break it town into three separate variables:

1) Does training quads lead to more injuries than not training quads (training doubles, triples, spins, skating skills, etc.): I don't have enough knowledge to answer this, it'd actually be very interesting if someone has compiled the data from current and past skaters.

2) Does training quads pre-puberty lead to more injuries than training them post-puberty: for the ladies we cannot say as there is no data on this currently, for men we have to look at skaters who trained quads pre-puberty and those to trained them only after puberty - again I do not know myself.

3) Does increasing the age limit prevent skaters from training quads (or is the answer that we have to apply a minimum age to start skating as a whole): This is the only question I can answer from the data I've seen in the ladies, and that is no. Quads are not trained for the sole purpose of senior competitions. In fact, all the ladies who have ever landed a quad in competition did it first in juniors, with the only exception of Tursynbaeva. Many of these ladies have started training these elements way before they even made their international debut (Shcherbakova, Liu, unsure about Trusova and Tusynbaeva, and Kihira and Tuktamysheva's 3A). So to reduce the quads, it would make sense to raise the age limit for juniors, ie. all international competition, to 18, or whatever age threshold is believed to lower the dangers of training quads. This is only the incidence of quads though, nothing about health (that is answered by the first two).

4) Alternatively we can also look at if increasing the age limit reduces injuries overall by looking at percentage of injuries in skaters above 18 and below 18 (if that's the chosen age limit). But this only tells is about figure skating as a whole, not about the quads and this would be about all competitions, not just seniors.

I think those 3 questions have to be answered before we can say that a rule to increase the age limit will be healthier for skaters, or if it even affects health at all.

Obviously, none of the studies would have the appropriate control: one skater cannot be used to test all these things so the biological and environmental variables would not be accounted for. Then, if we were to compile all the data and conclude that an increase in age would be healthier, what makes 18 the magic number? Why not 17 or 20? We'd need the study to determine the age.

This age limit argument has been going on for so long with both sides arguing for what they want for whatever reasons, but I don't think there has been any logical approach to answering how age limits affect the health of skaters.

Thank you for the post and for laying out the arguments in the way that you did:thumbsup:

I think we agree that there are no studies specifically on quads or on how training a particular jump impacts young skaters.

From my perspective, there are studies showing that intense physical activity affects the health of young athletes, for example these articles on the "Female health triad and adolescent athletes":

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5532188/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435916/

Now I am *not* saying that these articles support one viewpoint or another, I'm not looking for a dissection of those articles. I do say that they raise in my mind questions that I would like answered.

Also trying to be neutral, I believe the points of difference are:

1) specificity of studies: do we need to have studies specific to skating? specific to training quads? specific to anything else :think:
2) action in the meantime: do we wait for studies to come in before taking action? Do we take action and then wait?

My answers would be no to 1) and yes to 2).

There are some arguments (like losing out on an income stream or what young athletes will do "anyway") that don't affect the answers to those two questions for me. Or factors, such as who wins any ladies' comp ever, that matter less to me

I understand that others have different opinions, and of course that is the way of the world.

 

[neud]

I don't support discrimination based on race, gender, nationality or age.
US doesn't have age discrimination at the national level as far as I know. Liu was allowed to participate in Senior Nationals at the age of 13. I like it. It is a good example for the rest of the World. All discriminating limits must be removed.

 

[el henry]

I don't support discrimination based on race, gender, nationality or age.
US doesn't have age discrimination at the national level as far as I know. Liu was allowed to participate in Senior Nationals at the age of 13. I like it. It is a good example for the rest of the World. All discriminating limits must be removed.

I spent my professional life, in part, enforcing non discrimination laws. I share your concerns.

Age limits for persons who have not yet achieved the age of majority, in voluntary organizations such as the ISU, are not discrimation. Those age limits may be 13, 14, 15 or 16.

As they are applied to all countries and to all genders equally, they do not discriminate.

Issue solved:thumbsup:

 

[neud]

Of course, this age limits are blatant discrimination.
Look at Kamila Valieva case, for example. She is currently one of the best figure skaters of the World (5th in the Seasons Bests list) and discriminated in so many ways.
1) Age - she is not allowed participate in Seniors competitions internationally and nationally. Also she can't include ChoreoSeq in her FS and 3A in SP not in combo and has to do compulsory 3Lo.
2) Gender - as a Lady, she is not allowed to do her 4T in SP, unlike Men.
3) Nationality - Russian Lady can be even number 4 in the whole World but still won't get WC spot, because country's spots are limited to three. This is obvious and blatant discriminatiion of skaters from countries with strong fields.

 

[Arbitrary]

Of course, this age limits are blatant discrimination.
Look at Kamila Valieva case, for example. She is currently one of the best figure skaters in the World (5th in the Seasons Bests list) and discriminated in so many ways.
1) Age - she is not allowed participate in Seniors competitions internationally and nationally. Also she can't include ChoreoSeq in her FS and 3A in SP not in combo and has to do compulsory 3Lo.
2) Gender - as a Lady, she is not allowed to do her 4T in SP, unlike Men.
3) Nationality - Russian Lady can be even number 4 in the whole World but still won't get WC spot, because country's spots are limited to three. This is obvious and blatant discriminatiion of skaters from countries with strong fields.

The main difference between FS and say, cross-country skiing or Marathon Run is the time sharing.
A skater uses the rink for 7-10 minutes solely when many runners use the track at the same time.
ISU had to find a balance and there is no other way if not limit the number of participants stricktly. Three per country at maximum. Period.

 

[Shayuki]

As I've mentioned before, I think there are at least three different "problems" to be "solved" by raising age limits:

1. Protect growing children from damaging their bodies until they reach physical and mental maturity/near adulthood
2. Emphasize skating skills that take place blade to ice with less emphasis on in-air rotation
3. Showcase the beauty of adult female women to appeal to casual (primarily hetero male) viewers who watch skating for the sex appeal, or more for artistic maturity (perhaps of more interest to adult women and gay men, if we want to generalize)

How does it solve #1? The skaters will need to train the jumps just as early anyway. In fact, in the worst case scenario it might end up causing the skaters having to take even more extreme measures to "delay puberty", and will cause many more skaters to give up on the sport considering how long it would take until they could reach the "reward" of skating in seniors. Until that point, the sport's very expensive and demanding.

It has nothing to do with #2. That's a scoring / judging system issue. Nothing prevents a young girl from being very good at skating and weak at jumps. In fact, they exist.

#3 is extremely rude and shallow. It's a sport. If they want to watch women for sex appeal, they can do so very easily in mediums specifically designed for it. In the first place, this point is at odds with the others. Do you know what these typical "hetero male" viewers would be watching figure skating for? Jumps, danger, excitement. Not gliding and grace. One of the main complaints by this "macho" demographic is that figure skating's too soft.


Figure skating is a solo sport. It's not a contact sport like NFL or NHL. Junior skating is just as dangerous as senior skating. The vast majority of injuries happen in training. The skaters wouldn't stop training.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Really for me...if the parents consent to their kid skating internationally at the highest levels then I say it’s no one else’s business. Sorry not sorry....pls don’t @me

Thx

 

[kenboy123]

Higher risks mean higher rewards, makes sense to me. If the reward was reduced, hardly anyone would bother to take the risk.

Please show me in the rules where it says the division between tech and artistry should be exactly 50%?

Higher risk equals higher reward ONLY IF you do good ones, not if you do poor ones...skaters are literally trying them and not getting punished for failing, that I think is NOT right...no one should get points for trying and not succeeding...makes sense to me, they don't give out medals for effort...

 

[colormyworld240]

Thank you for the post and for laying out the arguments in the way that you did:thumbsup:

I think we agree that there are no studies specifically on quads or on how training a particular jump impacts young skaters.

From my perspective, there are studies showing that intense physical activity affects the health of young athletes, for example these articles on the "Female health triad and adolescent athletes":

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5532188/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435916/

Now I am *not* saying that these articles support one viewpoint or another, I'm not looking for a dissection of those articles. I do say that they raise in my mind questions that I would like answered.

Also trying to be neutral, I believe the points of difference are:

1) specificity of studies: do we need to have studies specific to skating? specific to training quads? specific to anything else :think:
2) action in the meantime: do we wait for studies to come in before taking action? Do we take action and then wait?

My answers would be no to 1) and yes to 2).

There are some arguments (like losing out on an income stream or what young athletes will do "anyway") that don't affect the answers to those two questions for me. Or factors, such as who wins any ladies' comp ever, that matter less to me

I understand that others have different opinions, and of course that is the way of the world.

I don't think we need specific studies in terms of a publication from a research group. There are any general articles about competitive sports on the human body, but this is only theory in regards to this specific question (as they're not actually about quads and figure skating and age limits). The only relevant information is what we already have: data from current and past skaters. I think that's what needs to be addressed before any statement can be made about age limits and health concerns, from both sides. I just don't have the knowledge myself to answer some of them, as I haven't been watching FS for that long and don't know much about individual skaters' histories with injuries. That's the required contribution right now.

The discussion so far seems very unproductive to me, no one has given examples from skaters to support their opinions. It's hard to look at the ladies because there are so few of them who jump quads, but I think there's enough data in the men to support an argument. I just haven't seen any of this, only many people saying that it is beneficial for health to raise the age limits, or that it isn't. If we can compile data from the men with a decent samples size, it'll provide a correlation to base arguments off of. And so there has to be some basis for any action to be taken (whether the age limit should be raised, lowered, or remain the same). Everyone has different opinions, but for any type of productive discussion, these need to be back up by evidence from actual skaters. Otherwise it's like arguing that the sky is/isn't blue, without looking looking up.

For my personal opinion: I think the "skaters will be jumping quads regardless of age limits" argument does matter, if the argument is in the concern for health and quads. Because then raising the limits of seniors won't help the health of skaters at all. That would just be a rule based on an unsupported opinion, and without reason. There should action taken to protect skaters, but these actions have to be backed up by real supporting information, otherwise it's just random and discriminatory (not saying that it is, and it could be reasonable and helpful if supported). If quads are shown to be more dangerous in younger skaters, then that needs to be addressed, and the real problem would be stopping them from training quads, not raising age limits for seniors (but perhaps juniors, or limiting what skaters can train as a whole).

 

[colormyworld240]

As I've mentioned before, I think there are at least three different "problems" to be "solved" by raising age limits:

1. Protect growing children from damaging their bodies until they reach physical and mental maturity/near adulthood
2. Emphasize skating skills that take place blade to ice with less emphasis on in-air rotation
3. Showcase the beauty of adult female women to appeal to casual (primarily hetero male) viewers who watch skating for the sex appeal, or more for artistic maturity (perhaps of more interest to adult women and gay men, if we want to generalize)

Are we aiming to protect children, to maintain standards of fundamental skating skills, or to appeal to adult viewers?

The solution to each of these issues may not be the same. So whenever a thread is started that begins by offering a solution (raise age limits) before defining which problem it's intended to solve, the discussion goes back and forth between different issues.



Absolutely! And also other ways to make jumping difficult aside from number of rotations in the air.



I could give a long history of short program rule changes over the past 47 years, much off the top of my head, but I won't interrupt this thread to do so now. To summarize the specifics that may address your question:

Between the 1973 and 1988 seasons, both men and women were required to do a specified solo double jump, and also a different specified double jump in the combination. The other jump in the combination could be double or triple.

Beginning in 1989 senior ladies could do any double jump they pleased as the solo jump. Starting in 1995 they were allowed to do any triple jump in that slot, and around the turn of the century (I don't remember if it started in 1999 or 2001 season), the senior ladies' solo jump was required to be triple.

Since the late 1990s, junior men and women have been required to do a specified solo jump in their short programs, rotating among lutz, flip, and loop. I'm not sure what the junior SP requirements were during the early-90s period when the senior solo jump was not specified.



With the number and success of ladies now attempting quads in their freeskates, I'm sure that the possibility of allowing quads in the short program will be up for discussion and possibly for a vote at the 2020 ISU Congress. I don't know whether it will pass then, but if so I don't expect it would take effect until the 2023 season.



I agree.



Yes, most skaters worldwide earn 0s to 5s. But the skaters who are good enough to compete internationally tend to be better than that. We do see plenty of 5s at lower level senior competition and plenty of 4s and often 3s at junior events.



Skate Canada recommendations for how tech panels should divide the work of calling singles step sequences (other federations and the ISU probably use similar procedures):




It may be impossible for you or for me, but not for former high-level skaters who have spent years practicing and in many cases even more years coaching these turns and know exactly what they should look like without having to think about it. They do get to divide the work so the same person doesn't have to count the changes of direction and also assess the amount of full body movement at the same time.



The big issue with changing the age limits occurred at the 1996 ISU Congress, when the current age limits went into effect with some exceptions that have since expired/been removed.

At the time the vote took place, probably foremost in the delegates' minds were Oksana Baiul winning 1993 Worlds at age 15 too young by the new rules (and then Olympics the following year -- by the new rules she would have been old enough for seniors in 1994 but if they had been in effect at that time she wouldn't have had a full year of senior experience and a world title under her belt) and Michelle Kwan winning 1996 Worlds as a third-year senior at 15 (7 days too young for seniors under the new rules), along with an impressive freeskate by 13-year-old Tara Lipinski who placed 15 at 1996 Worlds.

I.e., the 1996 changes were not a reaction to Lipinski winning, since she hadn't won anything yet, but rather to the trend of very young champions that Lipinski appeared poised to continue -- as indeed she did because of the exception that allowed her to compete as a 14-year-old senior after the rule change.

Your third point is one I disagree with, wholeheartedly. Figure skating is a sport, not a Victoria's Secret fashion show (and even then - who says that's for the sexual attraction of men (or women)?). Perhaps it is better to state that it is not a strip club. I think the argument that age correlates to artistic maturity is up for debate, but that is a perfectly valid opinion. However, in terms of attracting viewship, figure skating is aimed to attract those who are interested in the athletic and artistic components (and both). Given that both female and male athletes have spoken out about being sexualized by the media and the public without their consent, watching skaters for the purpose of sexual attraction should be deterred. The system should prevent this, and imposing a rule for this specific reason is criminal. The most recent example with a figure skater I can think of is Alena Kostornaia. She had a stalker who posted many inappropriate fixations on social media, including kissing photos of her and calling her his wife. This stalker then approached her in person at Finlandia. This was especially inappropriate as she is a minor, but would still be 100% inappropriate even if she were of legal age above 18.

To clarify: this comment is only about the argument that one reason for increasing the age limit is to attract a viewship of men sexually. Of course, I do not believe that this is a reason and am not arguing for or against the general increase/decrease.

 

[Mishaminion]

Most of my friends dislike figure skating, they (like many other critics) don't see it as a real sport because it seems to be more of a beauty pageant.
Why would anyone want to focus on that more? Sexualising young though "legal" female athletes so males have something to get off on? Am I seeing this correctly? What?
Sexual exploitation should never be a thing.

I think I'd rather see a thousand Trusovas compete than that.

 

[nussnacker]

Most of my friends dislike figure skating, they (like many other critics) don't see it as a real sport because it seems to be more of a beauty pageant.
Why would anyone want to focus on that more? Sexualising young though "legal" female athletes so males have something to get off on? Am I seeing this correctly? What?

I think I'd rather see a thousand Trusova's compete than that.

Exactly... I can't believe people are still freely saying that :shocked:

Showcase the beauty of adult female women to appeal to casual (primarily hetero male) viewers who watch skating for the sex appeal

wow...
And that's one of the reasons to raise the age?

:reye: so shocked to read anything like that.
Those women are athletes, they are there to compete, not to be pleasing any hetero-male viewers watching FS for sex appeal.

 

[Shayuki]

Also, when you see China's current senior national champion Xiangyi An performing her exhibition in Cup of China, you'll see very clearly why a skater being young doesn't necessarily mean she cannot be artistic. UNLESS your only concern is whether their bodies are mature, which is body discrimination.

 

[neud]

Bye the way, whats the point of ChoreoSeq ban in Juniors? Is it dangerous element or is it just to discriminate Juniors in TES?

 

[andromache]

Several people in this thread seem to be confusing "discrimination" with "rules and regulations." All sports are governed by particular rules and regulations. These rules do not necessarily equate to "discrimination." For example, competitive wrestling (not pro wrestling) has divisions that are divided by weight. That is not "body discrimination" - it is a rule that serves a purpose. The major sports league in the US - MLB, NFL, NBA - all have age limits. Internationally, there are minimum age restrictions in FIFA.

Figure skating also has a minimum age restriction that already exists, we should remember. So we are not arguing about "discrimination." Age "discrimination" already exists - we are simply discussing if it should be altered.

Is it discrimination against children that they can't buy cigarettes and alcohol until they turn 21?

I mean, technically, yes we "discriminate" about all of those things. However, making decisions about what is reasonable or unreasonable for people is very different than unjust or prejudice.

In addition, it is not discrimination to have rules about different elements for different levels or types of competitions, or to suggest that rules should change. Was it discrimination against skaters who were good at figures when they got rid of them? Is it discrimination against great spinners than spins are not worth more than jumps? Is it discrimination that there is a TES minimum for Worlds?

Based on some of the stuff I've read in this thread, it is clear that not everyone here is interested in having a discussion about the pros and cons of increasing the age requirement, which is why I see so many irrational attacks and assertions being thrown around. "Discrimination." Please.

 

[gkelly]

Bye the way, whats the point of ChoreoSeq ban in Juniors? Is it dangerous element or is it just to discriminate Juniors in TES?

It's not a ban.

Each type of program (short program and well-balanced program) has a specific time limit and number of element slots, which may differ between competition levels (senior, junior, novice, etc.) and between disciplines.

When IJS first started ca. 2003-2004, the senior freeskate included 7 jump passes for women (8 for men, who had 30 seconds longer programs), 4 spins, a step sequence, and a leveled spiral sequence (second step sequence for men).

Juniors had 30 seconds less and only 3 spins.

Within a couple of years the ISU decided that that was too many elements to fit comfortably in the time alloted and didn't allow for much meaningful skating between elements. So they removed the 4th spin from the senior freeskate and the spiral sequence/2nd step sequence from the junior freeskate.

A number of years later (2010-11), they removed the spiral sequence from both junior and senior ladies' short programs, to allow more time for in-between moves that could include spirals, and also redefined the leveled spiral sequence/men's 2nd leveled step sequence in the senior freeskate to be a "choreographic sequence" in hopes of allowing more choreographic freedom/encouraging more originality in that element.

Spirals and other choreographic moves between elements are always allowed to be evaluated as transitions and part of the general program choreography in all disciplines at all levels, SP and freeskate.

But only the senior freeskate is long enough that a full-ice sequence of such moves counts as a whole element (with low base value, to be distinguished by GOE).

Referring to the fact that this sequence doesn't exist as an element scored under TES for any programs except the senior freeskate as a "ban" would make as much sense as saying that spiral sequences are now banned in short programs or that leveled step sequences and side-by-side spins are now banned in pairs freeskates (they exist in pairs SPs only now).

 

[neud]

Thank you. This all very interesting but the as a result we see discrimination of Juniors in TES, because they don't have ChSq unlike Seniors and it makes harder for them to compete for highest places in Seasons Best list and hence for GP spots. Same goes to 3A in SP (not in combo).