Senior Ladies Need To Up The Age Requirement

[Bcash]

OHHHH yeah, i think Finlandia trophy was great in that regard. Because we literally had a skinny litle girl with top notch artistry vs mature jumping beam.

Who won Finlandia? Kostarnaia? She has one of the more elegant set of physical attributes among all the Russian jumping beans for sure.

Also let's not go overboard. I think Kostarnaia is certainly talented and promising, but her "artistry" is far from "mature", it's just miles better than the abysmal Eteri jumping beans that have come out before her.

 

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From a purely enjoyment perspective, I just find skinny little girls jumping around to be of little appeal in a sport like this. Which is why I've not felt pulled into this discipline at all post-Yuna Kim era. Occasionally you have a young skater with unusual maturity in style and physical control like Kostarnaia but that's very rare.

I don't think the current state of affairs helps draw in more audience, but then that's maybe an ulterior concern.

For many years ladies were the most boring event to me. It was Yulia, a skinny little girl who completely changed my perspective. I understand that due to the current "drought" in the USA they try to promote dance now. I would expect the same in Canada for some years before new strong women skaters appear. But in many other countries and in this particular board ladies are the focus. It is because it's the time of revolution. Many skate to Muse for a while. But Bellami congratulated Trusova. Because she is what one can see behind his songs: Uprising, Supremacy, Invincible. "They will not control us - we will be victorious!"

There are 1264 pages on the edge front section 599 of them or 47% is Russian ladies thread, 900 pages or 71% dedicated specifically to ladies. In the remaining 364 pages in the threads like about Canadian and South Korean figure skating a significant part is about ladies. It is safe to say that three quarters of the edge content on GS is dedicated to ladies. This means that their weight is 11 times higher than that of other disciplines.

So, who is losing interest to men, pairs, and dance because of "skinny little girls"?

 

[Mishaminion]

Then I would be interested in what you would say to the many posters who have made arguments based on wanting long term studies about health and training. Like me

I don’t care about little girls or sexualization. Never made those arguments, never will most of the posters I’ve seen here have not made them either.

I do care about long careers. Because it means the skater is healthy and enjoys skating :agree: and it means I get to enjoy their skating for as long as possible:agree:

Not all skaters want to have long careers, many want to go do other things.
Skaters who have already won everything often retire from competition because of lack of motivation to continue, whatever their age.
What you want your favourite skaters to do might be very different from what they want.
Changing the rules to force them to wait longer to go senior might not be what they want either.

 

[Mishaminion]

I didn't say maturity is a prerequisite. I said, to enjoy.
Anyway, I don't care about the current ladies skating enough to get too deep into a hypothetical discussion. Just pointing out that it's quite unattractive as it is.

To YOU.
That is your personal opinion. You enjoy "maturity" and think it should be very important and think ladies skating is currently "unattractive"

If you want a beauty pageant go watch one

 

[el henry]

Not all skaters want to have long careers, many want to go do other things.
Skaters who have already won everything often retire from competition because of lack of motivation to continue, whatever their age.
What you want your favourite skaters to do might be very different from what they want.
Changing the rules to force them to wait longer to go senior might not be what they want either.

I've already explained in other posts that what a 14 year old *wants* matters less to me than what is best for his or her health. What his or her parents want matters less to me than what is best for his or her health.

And if they don't want to skate past 15, and the senior age is 16, well, they and their parents need to make a decision then.

And since I don't give a rat's patootie about who wins, or "mature" women, or any of those other distractions, we are back to the main issue: health.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

And since I don't give a rat's patootie about who wins, or "mature" women, or any of those other distractions, we are back to the main issue: health.

Health is important, but I'm not sure how age restrictions (or any other restrictions) help. I suspect raising the age limit might help coaches take their time in teaching skaters proper technique that will survive puberty, but that might not be the case. Alina and Evgenia are doing everything they did at 15/16, perhaps with less consistency than before, but they haven't lost any of the jumps. Age restrictions might also delay the training of quads, so the skaters are trying to peak at 18 instead of 15. However, we don't know if training quads is more dangerous than just doing triples (but it probably is). Sadly, injuries have played a big part in ending the careers of most recent World and Olympic champions, most of whom never attempted quads. I'd hate to see even shorter careers than we've gotten used to seeing in recent years if the retirements are the result of serious injuries.

 

[Mishaminion]

I've already explained in other posts that what a 14 year old *wants* matters less to me than what is best for his or her health. What his or her parents want matters less to me than what is best for his or her health.

And if they don't want to skate past 15, and the senior age is 16, well, they and their parents need to make a decision then.

And since I don't give a rat's patootie about who wins, or "mature" women, or any of those other distractions, we are back to the main issue: health.

Well, I'm sorry, but you're a viewer, you do not get to decide what is best for any skater, their parents, coaches or whatever. It is ultimately up to them what they do, how long they do it for and if they can stay healthy enough to continue.

Proof that these 15 year olds are not healthy?

"I'm only concerned about their health!" is rapidly becoming a catch-all excuse for objections against these athletes.

 

[Happy Skates]

I've already explained in other posts that what a 14 year old *wants* matters less to me than what is best for his or her health. What his or her parents want matters less to me than what is best for his or her health.

And if they don't want to skate past 15, and the senior age is 16, well, they and their parents need to make a decision then.

And since I don't give a rat's patootie about who wins, or "mature" women, or any of those other distractions, we are back to the main issue: health.

Ok, and how does changing the Senior age affect health? At all? Changing the senior age doesn't change who trains quads and when. Skaters will still train and compete quads, just in junior competitions, and not senior. And I know that you're going to say "well it doesn't matter what they'll do anyways we should still make the rule!" But why make a rule if it literally won't do anything? Its like saying "We should ban all green from skating competitions to improve health. It doesn't matter if skaters will try quads anyways, If its a rule about health, we should still do it". Because there is proof that skaters will still train and compete quads in juniors, so changing the age limit will be just as effective as banning the color green. And no, they're not training quads "anyways" despite the rule, because the rule you're proposing says nothing about quads. You keep saying that its a "health" rule, but you've yet to explain how exactly it will affect the skaters' health.

 

[Mishaminion]

The only way it would work is to ban the juniors from doing quads (and 3A), restrict their technical advancement until finally allowing them into seniors at 17/18 where everyone else would just be doing doubles and triples anyway, because they have no reason to step up their game. Perhaps Quads and 3A also get banned from Seniors too, so we are left with a ladies technical regression back to the 80s.

Also ban the men from doing quads, just in case it is bad for their health too.

I'm not being serious by the way, it's a terrible idea.

 

[el henry]

Ok, and how does changing the Senior age affect health? At all? Changing the senior age doesn't change who trains quads and when. Skaters will still train and compete quads, just in junior competitions, and not senior. And I know that you're going to say "well it doesn't matter what they'll do anyways we should still make the rule!" But why make a rule if it literally won't do anything? Its like saying "We should ban all green from skating competitions to improve health. It doesn't matter if skaters will try quads anyways, If its a rule about health, we should still do it". Because there is proof that skaters will still train and compete quads in juniors, so changing the age limit will be just as effective as banning the color green. And no, they're not training quads "anyways" despite the rule, because the rule you're proposing says nothing about quads. You keep saying that its a "health" rule, but you've yet to explain how exactly it will affect the skaters' health.

I’ve already explained in my previous posts. I am not on a desktop and cannot cut and paste.

Someone is obviously free to disagree with my position, but to say I haven’t explained it, I don’t know how to answer that

I just keep coming back to rebut that “oh you just hate/are afraid of/don’t like/are discriminating our skaters” argument. I think I’ve done enough of that rebuttal too, so I’ll just stop here

 

[el henry]

Well, I'm sorry, but you're a viewer, you do not get to decide what is best for any skater, their parents, coaches or whatever. It is ultimately up to them what they do, how long they do it for and if they can stay healthy enough to continue.

Proof that these 15 year olds are not healthy?

"I'm only concerned about their health!" is rapidly becoming a catch-all excuse for objections against these athletes.

Everyone on this thread is just a viewer. Your opinion, my opinion they’re all worth the same. if an ISU official would like to self identify and comment, they can do so, but otherwise we’re all just offering opinions.

Anyone is free to disagree with mine, and they certainly have. I am only asking that they refer specifically to my opinion and not someone else’s. And that all opinions to the contrary not be generalized as based on “you just hate country X/you’re afraid of Skater Y/you don’t like young girls”.

That was the only point I was trying to make here.

 

[Mishaminion]

Everyone on this thread is just a viewer. Your opinion, my opinion they’re all worth the same. if an ISU official would like to self identify and comment, they can do so, but otherwise we’re all just offering opinions.

Anyone is free to disagree with mine, and they certainly have. I am only asking that they refer specifically to my opinion and not someone else’s. And that all opinions to the contrary not be generalized as based on “you just hate country X/you’re afraid of Skater Y/you don’t like young girls”.

That was the only point I was trying to make here.

I don't really understand what point it is you are trying to make to be honest.

Why would raising the age limit protect these girl's health?

More female skaters have landed quads in Juniors than they have Seniors. Lilbet was the only senior lady even trying them last season.

We had Trusova and Shcherbakova with quads in Juniors and now there's Liu and Valieva doing them this season.

So I'm not sure how raising the age limit is supposed to help?

 

[moonvine]

Health is important, but I'm not sure how age restrictions (or any other restrictions) help. I suspect raising the age limit might help coaches take their time in teaching skaters proper technique that will survive puberty, but that might not be the case. Alina and Evgenia are doing everything they did at 15/16, perhaps with less consistency than before, but they haven't lost any of the jumps. Age restrictions might also delay the training of quads, so the skaters are trying to peak at 18 instead of 15. However, we don't know if training quads is more dangerous than just doing triples (but it probably is). Sadly, injuries have played a big part in ending the careers of most recent World and Olympic champions, most of whom never attempted quads. I'd hate to see even shorter careers than we've gotten used to seeing in recent years if the retirements are the result of serious injuries.

If they put figures back in (which would never happen) it might solve some of these issues. Also, I think it is bizarre to call a 15 year old a "senior lady."

 

[moonvine]

Ok, and how does changing the Senior age affect health? At all? Changing the senior age doesn't change who trains quads and when. Skaters will still train and compete quads, just in junior competitions, and not senior. And I know that you're going to say "well it doesn't matter what they'll do anyways we should still make the rule!" But why make a rule if it literally won't do anything? Its like saying "We should ban all green from skating competitions to improve health. It doesn't matter if skaters will try quads anyways, If its a rule about health, we should still do it". Because there is proof that skaters will still train and compete quads in juniors, so changing the age limit will be just as effective as banning the color green. And no, they're not training quads "anyways" despite the rule, because the rule you're proposing says nothing about quads. You keep saying that its a "health" rule, but you've yet to explain how exactly it will affect the skaters' health.

I think if we are worried about health, whether or not we raise the age, we ban all quads from juniors (not seniors). To their credit, the ISU has done some research on pairs and their health and what effect on health landing a quad throw has on the lady. It turns out if they do it well it doesn't hurt them, but if they consistently do it poorly, it does. (I don't have a link to this, Jimmie Santee said it on Skate Radio and I made note of it.) I wonder if they will do research on how quads affect female and male health.

 

[colormyworld240]

Several people in this thread seem to be confusing "discrimination" with "rules and regulations." All sports are governed by particular rules and regulations. These rules do not necessarily equate to "discrimination." For example, competitive wrestling (not pro wrestling) has divisions that are divided by weight. That is not "body discrimination" - it is a rule that serves a purpose. The major sports league in the US - MLB, NFL, NBA - all have age limits. Internationally, there are minimum age restrictions in FIFA.
Figure skating also has a minimum age restriction that already exists, we should remember. So we are not arguing about "discrimination." Age "discrimination" already exists - we are simply discussing if it should be altered.

Is it discrimination against children that they can't buy cigarettes and alcohol until they turn 21?

I mean, technically, yes we "discriminate" about all of those things. However, making decisions about what is reasonable or unreasonable for people is very different than unjust or prejudice.

In addition, it is not discrimination to have rules about different elements for different levels or types of competitions, or to suggest that rules should change. Was it discrimination against skaters who were good at figures when they got rid of them? Is it discrimination against great spinners than spins are not worth more than jumps? Is it discrimination that there is a TES minimum for Worlds?

Based on some of the stuff I've read in this thread, it is clear that not everyone here is interested in having a discussion about the pros and cons of increasing the age requirement, which is why I see so many irrational attacks and assertions being thrown around. "Discrimination." Please.

This is the difference imo: raising age limit to benefit the health of the skaters is not discrimination so long as there is supporting information. If the incidence of injuries is less for those who begin in seniors at a later age than those who begin earlier, or any of the things I’ve listed in previous comments, then this is valid.

Raising the age limit to benefit the health of skaters is discrimination if there is no proof to support the argument. There are age limits in all sports. But this is not about imposing an age limit, it’s about changing. This change would exclude skaters. Which is fine if there are valid arguments. Has anyone even looked into this data with current and past skaters?

To use your example: in the states you need to be 21 to purchase alcohol. If they want to change the age to 25, they would have to provide supporting information for the change. It may be that those closer to 21 are more reckless and more prone to endangering themselves and others. Any age limit that has ever been changed in anything looked at the current data.

 

[Mishaminion]

If they put figures back in (which would never happen) it might solve some of these issues. Also, I think it is bizarre to call a 15 year old a "senior lady."

The terminology "Ladies" is a bit outdated to be honest, but even in Juniors where some are only 13 they're still called Junior Ladies

 

[Joekaz]

This is the difference imo: raising age limit to benefit the health of the skaters is not discrimination so long as there is supporting information. If the incidence of injuries is less for those who begin in seniors at a later age than those who begin earlier, or any of the things I’ve listed in previous comments, then this is valid.

Raising the age limit to benefit the health of skaters is discrimination if there is no proof to support the argument. There are age limits in all sports. But this is not about imposing an age limit, it’s about changing. This change would exclude skaters. Which is fine if there are valid arguments. Has anyone even looked into this data with current and past skaters?

To use your example: in the states you need to be 21 to purchase alcohol. If they want to change the age to 25, they would have to provide supporting information for the change. It may be that those closer to 21 are more reckless and more prone to endangering themselves and others. Any age limit that has ever been changed in anything looked at the current data.

The other problem with changing the age limit is that it encourages unscrupulous coaches to starve the girls to try to delay puberty like in gymnastics.

 

[moonvine]

For many years ladies were the most boring event to me. It was Yulia, a skinny little girl who completely changed my perspective. I understand that due to the current "drought" in the USA they try to promote dance now.

Sadly, I must disagree. Our men are probably even more dominant than our dance teams, and amazingly the men get short shrift in TV coverage, let alone dance. NBC is still searching for the next Michelle Kwan, or failing that at least an ice princess. The cynical side of me thinks that US commentators have been instructed to do whatever they can to make the US ladies look relevant while waiting for Alysa to reach the ranks of the seniors.

I don’t think NBC or NBCSN even showed the men’s short from Skate America. It was shown on the Olympic Channel I know, but my mom doesn’t have that. So she didn’t get to see it.

 

[el henry]

I don't really understand what point it is you are trying to make to be honest.

Why would raising the age limit protect these girl's health?

More female skaters have landed quads in Juniors than they have Seniors. Lilbet was the only senior lady even trying them last season.

We had Trusova and Shcherbakova with quads in Juniors and now there's Liu and Valieva doing them this season.

So I'm not sure how raising the age limit is supposed to help?

It turns out even on a desktop I don't know how to link to a previous post. Oh well It's Post 204 on page 11.

And I'm not really looking to change anyone's mind, because I won't. And I'm not saying the studies are there now, I'm saying wait until we have studies.

But as I've said before, I only return because I wouldn't want what is my, and others, honestly held belief to be mislabeled as jealousy, or sexualization, or anything like that.

And now I really will eace: out

 

[crazydreamer]

Sasha Cohen at 12 was still the most graceful and artistic skater there has ever been. And there are plenty of older skaters who are awkward as hell with god awful choreography. Just goes to show that age has little to do with that.

To the extent people want more focus on things like choreography, posture, etc., the logical way to do that is to change scoring and judging, and to let skaters of all ages adapt.