Senior Ladies Need To Up The Age Requirement

[Mishaminion]

Tutbernidze fans against the world. The world against Tutbernidze. To tell the truth, this fruitless fan war is killing my interest in figure skating this year.

I don't care who coaches these girls, but I do care about the undeniable fact this whole thread was started as a reaction to Trusova destroying her fellow competitors at SC.

Shcherbakova just a week before at SA had two quads and broke 160 points... no "raise the age limit!" outcry thread created.

Kostornaia trounces Zagitova by almost 20 points at IDF: Hardly caused a ripple here.

 

[Mathman]

I don't care who coaches these girls, but I do care about the undeniable fact this whole thread was started as a reaction to Trusova destroying her fellow competitors at SC.

Shcherbakova just a week before at SA had two quads and broke 160 points... no "raise the age limit!" outcry thread created.

Kostornaia trounces Zagitova by almost 20 points at IDF: Hardly caused a ripple here.

OK. Everybody hates Alexandra Trusova and Trusova fans hate the world. The guilty flee when no one pursueth.

 

[Mishaminion]

OK. Everybody hates Alexandra Trusova and Trusova fans hate the world. The guilty flee when no one pursueth.

Eh...

I'm more of a Kostornaia fan to be honest.

But I do think Trusova is a phenomenal talent and doesn't deserve any hatred to begin with. Dislike her skating, fair enough but the venom she gets just for going out there and winning the way she does is unwarranted.

 

[draqq]

In a state when PCS goes up because of clean quads and 3As, because of reputation and past results, because of the composition of the technical panel and the judges being aligned with their nationality, because of more and more clutter in the choreography for the sake of difficult transitions, because judges are overly strained looking at TES and can't pay attention to PCS, because PCS is broken down into 5 categories that overly bleed into each other, because judges need to do corridor judging or they are considered outliers and are berated on social media and behind closed doors if they don't comply with the status quo, because TES is not capped and PCS is capped, because the point differences in PCS are laughably minuscule compared to the potential point differences in TES.... setting a higher age limit will not fix anything.

 

[Nimyue]

Eh...

I'm more of a Kostornaia fan to be honest.

But I do think Trusova is a phenomenal talent and doesn't deserve any hatred to begin with. Dislike her skating, fair enough but the venom she gets just for going out there and winning the way she does is unwarranted.

I really think when people say there's an age issue, what's really there is that there's a PCS scoring issue. I love watching Sasha skate, but she basically does crossovers between each jumping pass and telegraphs her jumps for quite a long time. She definitely deserves her technical scores, but she is definitely overscorred in PCS. There should be a stark difference in her PCS and some other far more emotive skaters who have significantly more difficult turns and exhibit greater overall skating skills.

 

[ruga]

I agree that the problem is not young skaters winning competitions - it's the PCS that rises together with TES. 15 year olds winning competitions is absolutely great as long as they're objectively better than everyone else. I assume this thread was opened after Trusova's performance, because compared to other young top skaters, she has quite a big gap between performance and technical ability, but her components are not too far away from other top ladies (and it will rise even more). There are skaters who do not have great jumps, but are very involved in their performance and yet get very small PCS which often reflects their TES. It sends quite a bad message to skaters and coaches - why not work on consistency only and dedicate minimal amount of time to skating skills and performance if judges still won't give less than 8s in components for a clean skate? And more artistic skaters could be discouraged from showcasing their skills and decide to focus on jumps or even end career if they can't catch up with younger, technically much better competitors. TES and PCS are separate and should be judged as such so each skater could choose how to use their strengths to get a better score. This way, skaters with different abilities will have a chance to win, no matter the age.

 

[lariko]

Personally, to me, Trusova jumped quads, Trusova won makes far more sense than Brown didn’t jump quads, Brown won.

I watched Trusova skate, and hell bells, it’s fun. The skaters with high PCS, well, they’re often hit and miss for me personally, particularly when they skate to those mellow dirges. It takes Hanyu to get through to me with class.

I’m happy that everyone’s happy with Kostornaia, I’m more into Sakomoto and Zagitova... don’t ask me why. Energy, I suppose? Bad taste?

It’s the reason I don’t watch ice dance. Not only it puts me to sleep, I have no clue how and why they could possibly score anyone there. They all look pretty, they all twirl around, and if they as much as trip, it makes the front page. It’s impossible to pick favourites or fangirl for anyone. After every skate I was like... good job?

 

[Mishaminion]

Personally, to me, Trusova jumped quads, Trusova won makes far more sense than Brown didn’t jump quads, Brown won.

I watched Trusova skate, and hell bells, it’s fun. The skaters with high PCS, well, they’re often hit and miss for me personally, particularly when they skate to those mellow dirges. It takes Hanyu to get through to me with class.

I’m happy that everyone’s happy with Kostornaia, I’m more into Sakomoto and Zagitova... don’t ask me why. Energy, I suppose? Bad taste?

It’s the reason I don’t watch ice dance. Not only it puts me to sleep, I have no clue how and why they could possibly score anyone there. They all look pretty, they all twirl around, and if they as much as trip, it makes the front page. It’s impossible to pick favourites or fangirl for anyone. After every skate I was like... good job?

So much of it comes down to personal preference, and that is what 90% of the age limit support comes down to. Some people don't like the quads, the emphasis on jumps or just prefer more "mature adult" skating.

The argument has precious little to do with health and potential injuries, Trusova and Shcherbakova were already jumping quads as juniors...just as Valieva and Liu are this season.

I like exciting (to me) athletic skaters and more artistic ones too. I enjoy Sasha's programs as much as I do Alyona's, for lots of different reasons.

Satoko Miyahara is lovely, I appreciate her artistry but I personally get bored easily watching her, I don't know exactly why, maybe her tiny jumps and lack of presence on the ice.
Trusova is just as tiny but she appears to command it more and have a bigger visual impact.

 

[lariko]

tbh, in terms of health concerns, the only difference between Kostornaia and Trusova is that we have more evidence that 3A can be performed by 16+ female skaters. However, looking at the males, they fail on 3A as often as they do on quads. I’ve been watching for only 2 years, and I can’t recall anyone who didn’t trip or fell on 3A. Kostornaia is also pushing the technical performance bar higher, and I doubt that the strain on her body is less. She also does not exemplify a typical average female body. If her interpretation is more in line with older style skating, and that makes people happy, that’s fine. That only proves that the most successful stuff is a fresh twist on the old tropes.

If Kostornaia validates Trusova, that’s great, and i’m happy that the trio was all launched in the same year. To me, they’re all different.

 

[el henry]

Tutbernidze fans against the world. The world against Tutbernidze. To tell the truth, this fruitless fan war is killing my interest in figure skating this year.

I never had much interest in ladies, and what little I had is now confined to specific ladies that I like for personal reasons.

And I am going to use every metaphor I know: I don’t give two hoots, a rat’s patootie, or a flying flip about coaches. Or countries. Or wins and losses. Why is it so hard to just talk about merits of a proposal?

 

[Mishaminion]

I never had much interest in ladies, and what little I had is now confined to specific ladies that I like for personal reasons.

And I am going to use every metaphor I know: I don’t give two hoots, a rat’s patootie, or a flying flip about coaches. Or countries. Or wins and losses. Why is it so hard to just talk about merits of a proposal?

You don't seem to be one of the people supporting the age limit just because they don't like young "immature" girls winning and/or the quads.

 

[skylark]

Indeed, the outcry over Trusova being able to perform quad quads and setting world records seems hypocritical by all accounts.

What if Trusova's being able to perform quads isn't what people see as the issue? I like Trusova's quads and admire her abilities, but for me, she isn't a complete skater. But she's being elevated (overall) so quickly on the basis of the quads and her well-deserved TES scores. That's in my view, of course, and you and many other people are free to disagree with me on those points. But please don't assume that everyone's motive is resentment of her awesome athleticism and her ability to perform quads.

I don't care who coaches these girls, but I do care about the undeniable fact this whole thread was started as a reaction to Trusova destroying her fellow competitors at SC.

But it isn't an undeniable fact that the OP's motive was about her beating her competitors. I don't know what the OP's motives were, and I haven't read the whole thread. But I can tell you that I'm accustomed to disagreeing with the judges' placements now and then. Personally, I try to think like the skaters are taught ... to think of good skating and performance, because what the judges decide isn't in the skater's -- much less a fan's -- control. I much preferred Bradie's skate to Trusova's, and I'm not even a Bradie fan. Bradie's skating included more of the qualities that I value and love about figure skating. The age question isn't new .... there's always been the fact that a 14, 15, even 16 year old female's body is more suited to bigger, faster jumps. And that as a female or a male matures, they're often more able to develop artistry, connection, performance ability -- big reasons why many fans like figure skating at all.

Shcherbakova just a week before at SA had two quads and broke 160 points... no "raise the age limit!" outcry thread created.

Kostornaia trounces Zagitova by almost 20 points at IDF: Hardly caused a ripple here.

The three girls are not identical! I'm a true Kosternaia fan since last year's JGPF, because of her expressiveness in her skating, which seems built into the elements, and because of her simply breathtaking technique as she combines it with beautiful expression. I'm not saying everyone's opinion is the same as mine, but it's possible that other factors besides her winning by 20 points are the reason for the silence that you seem to find unreasonable. (I posted my reaction to her skating Sunday in the IdF Day#2 thread.)

As for Shcherbakova, my response to her skating is somewhere in the middle. I enjoy her musicality and her quads, but I don't enjoy her as much as I do Kosternaia.

My opinion isn't the important thing. What's important is that many, many other people -- even possibly including the OP of this thread -- likely have three individual responses to the 3 skaters, and differing opinions. Just please don't assume motives, because you can't know what others are thinking or how they're responding to different skaters.

 

[Mishaminion]

You said it yourself, people see more artistry in Alena and Anna and think Sasha is just jumps, that seems to me why the backlash is so focused on her.

I personally don't think it matters that much, I grew up in an era where athletic skaters like Midori Ito, Tonya Harding and Surya Bonaly were put down for supposedly lacking grace and being different from your typical "ice princess"

I liked them precisely because they WERE different. There's nothing wrong with preferring artistry over athleticism, or vice versa, but isn't it better to embrace the diversity?

If they were all the same it would be boring.

 

[el henry]

You don't seem to be one of the people supporting the age limit just because they don't like young "immature" girls winning and/or the quads.

Thank you, and as @Skylark pointed out, to state the obvious, many folks have many different reasons for our opinions. M And of course, I can usually only speak to *my* opinion. Maybe I’m correct, maybe not, and anyone is free to say I’m not.

But I am a stickler for attribution of motives, and that is my bugaboo

 

[Mishaminion]

There are a few different reasons but the main ones that crop up are not related to health at all but people's personal preferences of what they like to see.

I personally am in the middle, I like jumps, I like artistry, I'm fine if some skaters are way better at one of those things than the other
If I want to watch artistry, there's artistic skaters to watch.
If I want to see sheer athleticism, there's athletic skaters to watch.

Diversity is a good thing

I do think PCS should be valued more.

But a higher age limit, in my opinion, is not the answer.

The health of these girls seems to be a separate issue, whether they are Juniors or Seniors does not really matter.
13-14 year olds doing 3As and Quads in Juniors is barely any different to 15-16 year olds doing them in seniors.

 

[skylark]

You said it yourself, people see more artistry in Alena and Anna and think Sasha is just jumps, that seems to me why the backlash is so focused on her.

I personally don't think it matters that much, I grew up in an era where athletic skaters like Midori Ito, Tonya Harding and Surya Bonaly were put down for supposedly lacking grace and being different from your typical "ice princess"

I liked them precisely because they WERE different. There's nothing wrong with preferring artistry over athleticism, or vice versa, but isn't it better to embrace the diversity?

If they were all the same it would be boring.

Well, I didn't say Sasha was just jumps; I said for me she isn't a complete skater ... I should have added "yet." And getting high PCS scores on the basis of TES scores devalues the PCS score and devalues what many people consider an essential aspect of figure skating. I remember Tanya, Midori and Surya. When they came through with their technique, they were rewarded by the judges. When they didn't, they weren't. Artistry was the tie-breaker and given more value in the free skate, but ... and it's a big "but" ... a skater's technique had to be there. If you look at times when Midori and Kristi Yamaguchi, or Tanya and Nancy Kerrigan competed against each other, you can see that superior technique was rewarded when it was completed well.

We're in agreement on one thing: I love to see variety in skating competitions. In fact, what I love most about figure skating is that there's something for everybody. I just want the different values to be rewarded fairly. For instance, I'm a big fan (taking this out of the realm of ladies' skating) of pairs skaters Ashley Cain-Gribble and Timothy LeDuc. Some of what I admire about them is a result of their making assets out of the things (her height) that make them an a-typical pair. i.e. the compelling quality of their skating, which results from their vision of themselves as a pair: equal partners, two skating as one, beautiful extension and long lines, the way they fill the ice. Their connection to each other, their music, and the audience. And their dedication to steadily improving their jumps, lifts, throws, speed and skating skills, since they partnered up 3-1/2 years ago. Their skills have risen together. In my opinion, of course. And they look completely different from any other pair.

 

[Manitou]

All over-stretched excuses aside, to me it all comes down to pleasure of watching. I admit I'm not overly transfixed to watching Sasha's jump after jump with little content in between, but at the same time it's the highest quality delight when watching Alena's magical angelic skating. And I know if I lose one I will also lose the other. So I'd rather have both.

 

[Happy Skates]

The three girls are not identical! I'm a true Kosternaia fan since last year's JGPF, because of her expressiveness in her skating, which seems built into the elements, and because of her simply breathtaking technique as she combines it with beautiful expression. I'm not saying everyone's opinion is the same as mine, but it's possible that other factors besides her winning by 20 points are the reason for the silence that you seem to find unreasonable. (I posted my reaction to her skating Sunday in the IdF Day#2 thread.)

As for Shcherbakova, my response to her skating is somewhere in the middle. I enjoy her musicality and her quads, but I don't enjoy her as much as I do Kosternaia.

My opinion isn't the important thing. What's important is that many, many other people -- even possibly including the OP of this thread -- likely have three individual responses to the 3 skaters, and differing opinions. Just please don't assume motives, because you can't know what others are thinking or how they're responding to different skaters.

Lol you literally just proved their point though. Your reasons for wanting the age limit changed should have nothing to do with how much you like the specific skaters! So yes, obviously people will have different reactions to Kostornaia, Shcherbakova, and Trusova. But people are complaining because they feel that a lot of people want to change the age limit because they don't like Trusova's skating, and you're kind of proving their point by saying that people having differing responses to their skating is the reason for their silence - yes thats the point! They are all the same age, so if you want to change the age limit, your reason should be something that pertains to all three of them.

And yes, I'm aware that some people have stated other reasons for wanting to change limit.

 

[Elucidus]

Going by the current season so far, to make it fair I think we will have to divide ladies skating into two separate leagues, and not allow them to compete against each other. Fifteen-year-olds and the B league.

Which divides audience. And dividing audience is never a good idea.

Kostornaia just chewed up old-lady Zagitova by 20 points.

The judges made it seem like she chewed her up with 20 points. With other tech panel and the same performances from both - the gap would be much smaller - or Zagitova could even win Which in turn makes all inferences about presumable domination of young one over older one based on that exact case - pointless
I find it quite ironic, tbh - that the same Prins who advocated at Congress for raising the age - exerted the most efforts to destroy older Zagitova (making four false edge calls, two false UR calls and one obviously overly-picky time violation deduction just for lowering the hand at the end of a program) and keep younger Kostornaia in the first (ignoring her obvious UR on first 3A in the free)
That said it doesn't mean that younger ones doesn't have advantage over older ones in terms of jumps rotation and consistency. They does. Still, it's possible that much more important role here play quality and quantity of training rather than age. I mean Bell was quite good and clean too, wasn't she? And she is 20+ already AFAIK. The problem is that coaches and training - as well as amount of hours on ice per week - for majority of senior ladies are pretty bad. Due to reasons absolutely not related to age. Still, it can give false impression that it's age is the main culprit here - when you compare results of, for example, someone like Schott (with pretty low number of ice time per week) with Kostornaia (with huge amount of ice training). And in turn, with false impressions - people makes wrong conclusions - and therefore wrong decisions.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I find it quite ironic, tbh - that the same Prins who advocated at Congress for raising the age - exerted the most efforts to destroy older Zagitova (making four false edge calls, two false UR calls and one obviously overly-picky time violation deduction just for lowering the hand at the end of a program) and keep younger Kostornaia in the first (ignoring her obvious UR on first 3A in the free)

But both those decisions are in correlation with one another, at least to me, because they are both (as changing the bonus rule) against one person - the current Olympic champion. I think the guy for whatever reason doesn't like who the current Olympic champion is (or just the way how she got there, I'm not saying that he hates Alina personaly), and all of those decisions are product of his ambition to find another prototype of Olympic champion, who is not 'Alina Zagitova'. Alyona will be much expirienced/older skater than Alina at the time of her first Olympics, so Alyona is not a 'threat' to his cognitive preconceptions. She is probably his chosen one actually (and the one he's positioning against Kamila, Alysa, and other youngsters)