Senior Ladies Need To Up The Age Requirement

[Edwin]

Is there equal representation?

One would assume there is a progressive block vs a conservative block. The pro's have the young athletes capable of ultra-si (RUS, JPN, KOR, USA), the conservatives don't have young and/or capable athletes and will vote 'NO' to protect their interests.

 

[Casual]

Alina Zagitova won the last Olympics at a young age and yet despite the claim "they walk off with their gold medals" she is very much still around and still competitive.

It's the best argument FOR introducing the age limit... given the recent developments. (Sorry for LOL, but it's too funny to read this comment after Zagitova quitting.)

Seriously though, with the advent of puberty blockers, the legal "age" might soon have nothing to do with physical "age" anymore. I'm afraid if ISU decides to up the age limit, we'll just see more "adult women" who look like small girls.

 

[Mishaminion]

It's the best argument FOR introducing the age limit... given the recent developments. (Sorry for LOL, but it's too funny to read this comment after Zagitova quitting.)

Seriously though, with the advent of puberty blockers, the legal "age" might soon have nothing to do with physical "age" anymore. I'm afraid if ISU decides to up the age limit, we'll just see more "adult women" who look like small girls.

She hasn't quit, she says she plans to return. Alina's reasons for "quitting" are not really relevant to the age limit. She has been lacking motivation to compete, much like 25 year old double Olympic champ Yuzuru Hanyu has said his motivation has suffered in the past. It's more that Alina has won it all and often skaters who have done the same leave for the same reasons no matter what age they are at the time.

 

[Casual]

IMHO, if the goal is to see better longevity and more polished (esthetically pleasing) performances, then the judging needs to be amended, in order to better reward the all-around high quality. Otherwise, we'll continue seeing children jump and quit.

"Age" has nothing to do with it. Fix the judging first.

In particular, PCS and GOEs should NOT blindly follow TES. Otherwise, we'll keep having travesties, like Samarin's performance supposedly just as PCS-worthy as Shoma Uno's. Which is, of course, ridiculous.

 

[Albus]

IMHO, if the goal is to see better longevity and more polished (esthetically pleasing) performances, then the judging needs to be amended, in order to better reward the all-around high quality. Otherwise, we'll continue seeing children jump and quit.

"Age" has nothing to do with it. Fix the judging first.

In particular, PCS and GOEs should NOT blindly follow TES. Otherwise, we'll keep having travesties, like Samarin's performance supposedly just as PCS-worthy as Shoma Uno's. Which is, of course, ridiculous.

Oh wow, I thought that the goals of any sport are faster, higher, stronger. As far as I remember

 

[Casual]

Oh wow, I thought that the goals of any sport are faster, higher, stronger. As far as I remember

Meanwhile, figure skating is not just "any sport", but an art form as well. And its main goal (if you believe professional skaters) is to create that transcendent, awe-inspiring, emotions-inducing "moment" on ice.

As Terry (one of American TV commentators) put it, when Nathan finished a mesmerizing free skate at last year's Nationals (which won a gold medal) - "the medal means nothing, the scores and the judges mean nothing... this is what's it's all about, it's about this moment that we witnessed and will remember forever".

When it's beautiful, it's art. When it's ugly or mediocre, yeah, sure, call it a "sport" (expect it's not really, because the judging is too often biased or crooked for it to be a legit "sport". )

 

[Casual]

Oh wow, I thought that the goals of any sport are faster, higher, stronger. As far as I remember

As far as "any sports", the primary goal is FAIR competition with honest judging. Without it, any sports "achievements" or "wins" lose meaning.

It would mean no playing favorites, no biased judging, no cheating, no "strong (reputation, federation, coach, whatever) bonus", no "scores in different competitions can't be compared because different judging", etc.

 

[zanadude]

Meanwhile, figure skating is not just "any sport", but an art form as well.

No. It is only a sport, like gymnastics and diving.

Figure Skating as art form exists outside the realm of judging, such as exhibition programs.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Not if a skater and their team knows what they are doing on the ice and what they should be doing on the ice. Then it definitely can be art with sport in the competitive realm as well.

 

[Casual]

No. It is only a sport, like gymnastics and diving.

Figure Skating as art form exists outside the realm of judging, such as exhibition programs.

No. Because only art can aim to create a special emotional "moment" for the audience (and judges) through interpretation of music and movement, and creation of character and telling a story...

Sport is not about telling a story to induce emotional reaction in the audience. Figure skating is. This is why performance art can be judged for "performance" attributes, in addition to higher, faster, stronger.

 

[Azikin]

No. It is only a sport, like gymnastics and diving.

For you it may be. But I'm sure most figure skating fans feel otherwise.

 

[zanadude]

For you it may be. But I'm sure most figure skating fans feel otherwise.

What does it matter what the fans feel? It's the skaters that are competing. I challenge you to find a competitive skater that considers themselves an artist more than an athlete.

 

[Albus]

Meanwhile, figure skating is not just "any sport", but an art form as well. And its main goal (if you believe professional skaters) is to create that transcendent, awe-inspiring, emotions-inducing "moment" on ice.

As Terry (one of American TV commentators) put it, when Nathan finished a mesmerizing free skate at last year's Nationals (which won a gold medal) - "the medal means nothing, the scores and the judges mean nothing... this is what's it's all about, it's about this moment that we witnessed and will remember forever".

When it's beautiful, it's art. When it's ugly or mediocre, yeah, sure, call it a "sport" (expect it's not really, because the judging is too often biased or crooked for it to be a legit "sport". )

Sport is a sport. And its main goals exactly are just medals and historical achievements. I do not really believe those skaters who justify their low results by engaging in oratory exercises and do not advise anyone to believe. Of course, there couldn't be any "art form". You've obviously mixed up figure skating with the theater.

As far as "any sports", the primary goal is FAIR competition with honest judging. Without it, any sports "achievements" or "wins" lose meaning.

It would mean no playing favorites, no biased judging, no cheating, no "strong (reputation, federation, coach, whatever) bonus", no "scores in different competitions can't be compared because different judging", etc.

And so you attract even more meaningless subjective things, such as "art form," that fundamentally can't be valued by points and scores. Biased judging is bad, but bias, based on "i-wanna-artform" is justified? Roflmao, better find a new hobby, your life will have become easier. Figure skating is not for you.

 

[Casual]

Sport is a sport. And its main goals exactly are just medals and historical achievements.

For cheaters, maybe. Who cares about achieving that shiny moment of true perfection, or fair play, or merit? If the only thing that matters is a medal, then it doesn't matter what means are used, right?

At least this is the direction where the "sport" is being taken now, again, by the same culprits. Once again, it's all about the flag and the nation's prestige, not about skating.

Sad.

 

[ancientpeas]

Something can be both art and sport. Figure skating has always been both.

The best skaters can do both: Hanyu and Javi for example. I think Aliona is well on her way to being both. Yuna and Carolina also.

Why would anyone want figure skating to be only art or only sport? Look for skaters that can do both and glom onto them.

 

[ancientpeas]

For cheaters, maybe. Who cares about achieving that shiny moment of true perfection, or fair play, or merit? If the only thing that matters is a medal, then it doesn't matter what means are used, right?

At least this is the direction where the "sport" is being taken now, again, by the same culprits. Once again, it's all about the flag and the nation's prestige, not about skating.

Sad.

I would argue that it has always been this way though. Figure skating has always been political and you only have to ask skaters from the 60s about that.

The term cheaters is pejorative though. I remember the story of my favourite pair team Shen and Zhao and how for so long they were held back because all the current judging in pairs was European/North American and the esthetic was very romantic and "western" and theirs was a more Asian influenced approach that was not welcomed by judges. They had to adapt to what the judges wanted to the point where fans in China would openly be hostile to them for being too affectionate on the ice. Was it cheating for the judges to chose a artistic approach they appreciated more? Probably not. I know from talking to some people on the board that they prefer the high drama and what other people see as over the top flourishes. There is taste and there is culture. Both will effect judging without it being "cheating".

 

[Casual]

Something can be both art and sport. Figure skating has always been both.

The best skaters can do both: Hanyu and Javi for example. I think Aliona is well on her way to being both. Yuna and Carolina also.

Why would anyone want figure skating to be only art or only sport? Look for skaters that can do both and glom onto them.

No one wants figure skating to be only art, because technical prowess is a huge part of it and facilitates the artistic greatness.

But some want figure skating to be only sport (with loosely applied rules LOL), because otherwise it's impossible to justify the eyesore skating quality of their favorites.

 

[Casual]

There is taste and there is culture. Both will effect judging without it being "cheating".

Yes, but that's not what I'm talking about. There's cultural bias, and then there's outright cheating.

What Dick Button said about the "politics" of figure skating is more true than ever. We're back to those days, and worse.

 

[ancientpeas]

Yes, but that's not what I'm talking about. There's cultural bias, and then there's outright cheating.

What Dick Button said about the "politics" of figure skating is more true than ever. We're back to those days, and worse.

I'm not sure that is correct though. The elimination of school figures means there is less bias in skating from most accounts. It has also lead to skaters having worse skating skills too apparently.

I think judges get it wrong sometimes but I find I often agree with them. The difficulty with someone like Trusova is that with her technical content being so much better than anyone elses it nearly doesn't matter what else she does. If she lands the quads and does decent spins and foot work no one else is going to be able to compete with her. And that is fair because she is on a different plain right now to all the other ladies in this area. The TES does not have a natural cap (It does I suppose and someone could do the math and tell us if every jump was maxed, every spin, every footwork and all with maxed GOE what the max TES would be) but the PCS does have a very definite limit.

I go back to my original comment in this thread: When they start judging PCS more fairly some of this will come into line. If the ISU does not fix it then they are sending the message that the sport part is more important than the artistry and will we all have to decide for ourselves if we are okay with that and if we still want to be fans.

 

[Casual]

I'm not sure that is correct though. The elimination of school figures means there is less bias in skating from most accounts.

There's more bias now, thanks to plenty of opportunities to cheat though inflating/suppressing GOEs and PCS.

When Samarin get the same PCS as Shoma Uno, the only reason it's happening is not "because them rules", but because one is Russian and the other one is Japanese.

I guarantee it, if the day comes when suddenly the Russians gain artistic advantage, the ISU will come to Jesus and change the rules to reward artistry and perfection more than poorly executed jumps.

The game is rigged, and some fans don't even care as long as "their" team is advancing in the ratings. When politics dominate, it's a huge loss to the sport, IMHO.