Senior Ladies Need To Up The Age Requirement

[Giu]

At the Olympics 15 y.o. Zagitova's interpretation was a hundred times better than 24 y.o. Nagasu's interpretation. And Nagasu had 3A ("jumper!").

And Zagitova a fully backloaded program ("jumper!")

And with this I call myself out of this topic that is not constructive and it's not getting anywhere

 

[Amei]

At the Olympics 15 y.o. Zagitova's interpretation was a hundred times better than 24 y.o. Nagasu's interpretation. And Nagasu had 3A.

I don't know if I would say 'a hundred times better' but I agree with the sentiment, the argument for raising the age limit tends to be that older skaters are more mature in their presentation/artistry but there are examples where it's not the case in terms of older skaters having better presentation/artistry than a newer/younger skater.

 

[jenaj]

There are probably more flash in the pan skaters who have short careers than ones who stick around for a long time...at least in the last 20 years or so. Especially with the ladies.

Yes, but the situation is different now, if the reason skaters don't continue on is because they can't do the difficult technical elements after a certain age. Skaters who won the OGM and retired quickly in the past did so to turn pro (Oksana), because of injury (Tara) and because they were lucky to win the OGM against normally stronger competition and were unlikely to continue to succeed at that level (Sarah Hughes and Adelina--and maybe Tara, too).

 

[lpt]

Yes, but the situation is different now, if the reason skaters don't continue on is because they can't do the difficult technical elements after a certain age.

Who exactly don't continue "because they can't do the difficult technical elements"? Miyahara can't do triples, and still continues.

 

[eaglehelang]

There are probably more flash in the pan skaters who have short careers than ones who stick around for a long time...at least in the last 20 years or so. Especially with the ladies.

What would most skaters choose, longevity or an Olympic/World title?
I know what I'd do, take the Olympic/World title and go on to other things.

Very few skaters stick around when they've won the big competitions already, Yuzuru Hanyu is one of the few who has and even he has struggled with his motivation to continue.

Michelle Kwan had a long career but she started out as a senior very young too, younger than most of these Russian girls. She could have even skated at Olympics in 1994 aged 13 and she too won her first Worlds at 15.
Who knows what might have happened had she won Olympics in 1998, perhaps she too would have retired.

In that case, it is even more sad for those who dont win titles at age 18. Then if they continue, considered a has been at age 23.
It would not promote the sport among non FS countries.

Plus, in those days, didnt skaters retire to turn pro? They could earn money there. These days with the internet, there's less interest in such shows.

My country's top female diver became World Champion at age 27, in 2017. Beating the powerhouse China. She was also 2016 OG silver medalist, at age 26.
Even powerhouse diving country China, with youngsters waiting in line,their top female divers retire at age 25,26.
Reason : experience beats youth in high stakes competition.

Plus, if its a state funded sport, after all the funds poured in, the athlete is expected to represent the country as long as possible.
Such a short shelf life(shorter than gymnastics) & so expensive, governments think 10X 1st.

 

[jenaj]

Who exactly don't continue "because they can't do the difficult technical elements"? Miyahara can't do triples, and still continues.

Miyahara can't do triples? Yikes! And she is not a "flash in the pan," which is what I was referring to.

 

[Amei]

In that case, it is even more sad for those who dont win titles at age 18. Then if they continue, considered a has been at age 23.
It would not promote the sport among non FS countries.

Plus, in those days, didnt skaters retire to turn pro? They could earn money there. These days with the internet, there's less interest in such shows..

I think we would need input from Russians on this - what's the domestic interest of skating shows? But I've seen that both Zagitova and Medvedeva are doing shows in lieu of further competitions this year, and I've seen that Lipnitskaia is doing a show right now with Plushenko, I believe Sotnikova is in that show as well. So these are some big names in the sport that are doing shows, there has to be some level of domestic interest to warrant getting big-name skaters to do the shows.

 

[Mathman]

Who exactly don't continue "because they can't do the difficult technical elements"?

Yulia Lipnitskaia, Elena Radionova, Carolyn Zhang. Lots and lots of spectacular juniors and first-year seniors who fall back into the pack later on. Is Alina Zagitova the skater she was two years ago? Is Evgenia Medvedeva?

 

[skylark]

All these talks are sheer nonsense. I was at Rusnats. Scherbakova and Kostornaya are top full package world skaters right now. Rika follows. Grace, emotions, attention to tiny details, you name it. Sasha is a huge jumping machine when she goes for quads. When she does not like during the Rusnats SP she is a full package as well. Alina quit for now, Zhenya's status is unclear, Satoko just cannot jump properly. Who else are we talking about? There are no one near. Therefore all these talks are pure jealosy.

I am a huge fan of Kostornaya. And I'm getting there with Scherbakova. I love Trusova's personality but am not (yet) a fan of her skating.

But do I think they have an inherent advantage over anyone with a woman's body? In jumping, yes, I think they do. And jumping is where the numbers really count. The sport has always been about a balance between technical and presentation. It's also worked out, in reality, that skaters have to have the current jumps in order for the program, artistry and emotion to be a consideration. i.e. if Midori Ito or Tanya Harding had nailed their triple axels at 1992 Olympics, there might well have been a different outcome.

But please ... don't assume everyone -- or anyone -- participating in this conversation is motivated by jealousy. That is very unfair.

It also ignores the possibility that people are interested in other aspects of the sport, and the competition, besides solely who wins.

 

[Amei]

Yulia Lipnitskaia, Elena Radionova, Carolyn Zhang. Lots and lots of spectacular juniors and first-year seniors who fall back into the pack later on. Is Alina Zagitova the skater she was two years ago? Is Evgenia Medvedeva?

Lipnitskaia - retired due to an eating disorder
Radionova - terrible technique
Medvedeva - shoddy technique and injury issues
Zhang - not sure
Zagitova - exhaustion/motivation issues after winning everything - a lot of skaters rarely continue after winning the Olympics, Zagitova was competitive last year including enough to win Worlds; had she not won everything at this point she might've had the desire to train the more difficult elements. I think her artistry is better now than it was at the Olympics.

 

[lpt]

But I've seen that both Zagitova and Medvedeva are doing shows in lieu of further competitions this year, and I've seen that Lipnitskaia is doing a show right now with Plushenko, I believe Sotnikova is in that show as well. So these are some big names in the sport that are doing shows, there has to be some level of domestic interest to warrant getting big-name skaters to do the shows.

Valieva right now is doing show "Emotions on Ice" in Germany, Kostornaia will do show "Bolzano Passion Gala" in January, Tursynbaeva is now doing Averbukh show in Kazakhstan.

 

[Mathman]

... But do I think[(the fifteen-year-old wonderkids] have an inherent advantage over anyone with a woman's body? In jumping, yes, I think they do. And jumping is where the numbers really count. ...

I look at it like this. Whatever the sport, there is no point to holding a World Championship tournament or participating in the Olympic Games, and then pass rules that prevent the best athletes form competing.. Modern figure skating has chosen, though the judging system, to place emphasis on big jumps. If a 15-year-old can jump better than a 16-year-old, and a 16-year-old can jump better than a 17-year-old -- well, that's sports.

Yes, it's nice if big jumpers like Shcherbakova and Kostornia also pay attention to the performing arts aspect of skating. It's nice -- but largely irrelevant to who wins or loses.

If the ISU were concerned about the direction that skating has taken, the remedy is to change the scoring system to achieve a re-balancing. Whether or not this would make skating more popular as a spectator sport, that is a separate question. There is, for instance, no guarantee that an old skater will be more "artistic" than a young one.

 

[Albus]

Yes, you’re right. Maturity is not in the rulebooks, but you can find “interpretation of the music”. Is a 15 years old able to understand and interpret adult pieces like a Moulin Rouge? Some musics can be easily interpreted by the youngest but there are others that need a full understanding and whether you like it or not, maturity... The same applies to men, I was at the gpf and I was amazed by the technical abilities of Daniil Samsonov but I found the choice of the music Per te by Josh Groban quite inappropriate for a 14 years old, how can we expect him to understand that song? I wish I could see a 18 years old Daniil performing again on the same music to enjoy an interpretation of the music conscious of the words he’s skating on.

It is the most stupid and useless component an should be changed without a doubt. But even now nobody is obligated to "understand" the background of these music pieces. It is just a music. And skaters shouldn't know what is Moulin rouge. Nor per te. This is not their job to do. Per te is not even on Russian language, how could anybody expect or obligate any Russian skater to understand non Russian lyrics, if you were about lyrics, I am not just interested in males skating and don't what it is. And the vast majority of people don't know. They don't watch figure skating to add something to their playlists. News flash, they just watch figure skating. You know jumps, spins, throws...

 

[el henry]

Whole post...

Funny, my outlook is completely different.

I care deeply about the excellent, diverse and wonderful men’s skaters. Not so much about the ladies. And I care not at all about revolutions in the air as compared to blade to ice skills, which makes skating.

And the appropriateness of the music to the program and to the skater is to my eyes a most important component. Otherwise, why skate to music at all? Just jump and count revolutions.

I know I would be much less inclined to watch

 

[lpt]

And I care not at all about revolutions in the air as compared to blade to ice skills, which makes skating.
And the appropriateness of the music to the program and to the skater is to my eyes a most important component.

Some people just want to watch single ice dance. Nevertheless ice dance is the least popular discipline in figure skating. Let's see the number of pages in some Goldenskate topics:

921 pages 2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating
175 pages 2019-20 U.S. Ladies Figure Skating
55 pages 2019-20 Japanese ladies' figure skating
29 pages 2019-20 U.S. Men's Figure Skating
27 pages 2019-20 Russian Men's figure skating
21 pages 2019-20 Russian Pairs' figure skating
11 pages 2019-20 Japanese Men's Figure Skating
11 pages 2019-20 European Ladies’ Figure Skating
10 pages 2019-20 U.S. Ice Dance
5 pages 2019-20 Russian Ice Dance
2 pages 2019-20 European Ice Dance

These numbers clearly show what people want to discuss and watch and what not so much.

Numbers of RusNats youtube watchers (stream with Ted Barton, so mostly not from Russia) SP+FS, thousands:

Ladies 275+296
Men 97+107
Pairs 92+94
Dance 64+62

 

[Mathman]

Ladies 275+296
Men 97+107

It's still kind of interesting, though. People do not seem to have any interest in seeing men leaping high and twirling in the air. But they do like to see teenage girls leaping and twirling.

 

[lzxnl]

It's still kind of interesting, though. People do not seem to have any interest in seeing men leaping high and twirling in the air. But they do like to see teenage girls leaping and twirling.

Russian men aren't setting the world alight this season. It also doesn't help that they're incredibly inconsistent, and thus they're harder to support.

 

[Amei]

It's still kind of interesting, though. People do not seem to have any interest in seeing men leaping high and twirling in the air. But they do like to see teenage girls leaping and twirling.

I think the reasoning behind that is:
1) Russian men are inconsistent and have been for quite some time (I mean hello in 2014 their 'best' option for the sole Olympics spot was a guy that's being surgically held together) whereas the Russian ladies have been extremely competitive for the last 6 years similar to the lack of interest in US ladies I think applies to Russian men - people want to invest their time in competitive winners

2) What the top-3 Russian ladies are doing is ground-breaking for the ladies discipline, the men have been doing quads and multiple triple axels for what 20 years. The 2 ladies skaters doing quads have already pushed so the sport so far that its now more common to hear skaters are talking about training a quad or learning the triple axel and skaters that can do the triple axel are doing it multiple times in competition. It was just 2 years ago that it was something historic for Mirai Nagasu to do a triple axel in the Olympics, today no educated figure skating fan is going to look at a skater without multiple triple axels or a quad and say that they are a podium threat for Worlds.

3) The current top-3 Russian ladies have had a lot of buzz about them from the figure skating internet community for several years before they ever turned senior - they all toured in Japan prior to skating on the senior International circuit; Shcherbakova toured in Japan prior to competing internationally as a junior. And now these same 3 ladies have lived up to the hype, they've won gold at every competition they've gone to and swept the GPF podium and look to be solid bets for sweeping the European and World championship podiums later this season. I don't think that's something that's been seen before in figure skating for 3 skaters to debut on the circuit at the same time and dominate the sport like they have.

 

[el henry]

As much as I love Goldenskate, the number of pages dedicated for any one particular discipline does not indicate proof of popularity for any discipline or particular skater? In any event, I was referring to my own preference, and not extrapolating.

Worldwide, one particular male skater is more popular than the top five ladies skaters of any nationality added together. And his popularity does not depend only on revolutions in the air (although he certainly has them). And IMO, he is also a wonderful argument for whatever health related regulations would lead to requiring skaters to be an older age before skating senior. So that they can skate through two Olympic cycles and beyond :agree:

 

[Albus]

As much as I love Goldenskate, the number of pages dedicated for any one particular discipline does not indicate proof of popularity for any discipline or particular skater? In any event, I was referring to my own preference, and not extrapolating.

Worldwide, one particular male skater is more popular than the top five ladies skaters of any nationality added together. And his popularity does not depend only on revolutions in the air (although he certainly has them). And IMO, he is also a wonderful argument for whatever health related regulations would lead to requiring skaters to be an older age before skating senior. So that they can skate through two Olympic cycles and beyond :agree:

Who it is ? As far as I remember Alina Zagitova is the most popular skater right now, followed by Trusova, they are not males.