Mirai stunned Japanese fans -> Do you like Michelle Kwan?

[slutskayafan21]

But I disagree with Slutskayafan that skaters such as Kyoto Ina, Sydney Vogel, Erin Pearl or Amber Corwin would have disgraced the U.S. if they had ever had a chance to compete at Worlds. They would have done us proud and -- who knows -- might even have had a "Liz Manley moment."

I dont think I went as far as to use the term disgrace. Was only meaning that those are skaters that it was probably for the better the U.S did not have to send to Worlds anyway. I dont think they would have had the kind of result, even for a 3rd U.S lady, that would be deemed satisfactory by alot of fans, media, et.....

As for Liz Manley, she had been 5th at the Worlds two years before the Olympics, 4th at the Worlds a year before the Olympics. This was even with her massive consistency problems. Those skaters are on a different scale altogether, and I could not draw any parallel with whatever their dream moment would be and hers.

 

[Fossi]

Cohen was lucky to have gotten Silver at Nationals in 2000. Sarah Hughes should've beaten her in the LP. It was a split, that unfortunately benefited Sasha. All those that wanted Michelle "knocked off her perch" started whining about poor Cohen, and I think people bought into it. The real person that should've been focused on was Sarah. She really showed what a true fighter she was out there.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Well, it is Mirai's thread but I will inject my view on Sasha. She had her best ever at 2006 Olys despite the falls. Unfortunately, she goofed up the 2006 Worlds. IMO, There is no more chances for either Sasha or Michelle. Only the dreams of the devoted fans can wish that.

Back to Mirai. She is one talented young lady with all the flow and nuances of a seasoned skater. Will she win? She's up against a strong Mao.

(btw, I am still thinking that Kimmie will be on the podium in Sweden)

Joe

 

[attyfan]

.... IMO, There is no more chances for either Sasha or Michelle. .....

Joe

Sorry, to be pernickity but the lack of chances in competitive skating does not equate to "no more chances for either Sasha or Michelle", ended with a period. There is a world full of chances for Sasha and MIchelle, outside of competitive skating.

 

[rutinia]

I didn't say MK actually has robbed someone's chance to go to worlds. Sneaking into the third spot doesn't mean much except for personal memories.
MK actually has robbed two golds from Slutskaya, one gold form Lu Chen, Lipinski, Cohen and Meissner, and one bronze from Ando. I'm positive she is the one most responsible for long stagnation and boredom of the sport. Only patriotic Americans will love those eight years.

 

[GoldMedalist]

MK actually has robbed two golds from Slutskaya, one gold form Lu Chen, Lipinski, Cohen and Meissner, and one bronze from Ando. I'm positive she is the one most responsible for long stagnation and boredom of the sport. Only patriotic Americans will love those eight years.

NO, Yes...but it wasn't "robbery" - they were both totally deserving, NO, Yes - but again extremely close (I assume you mean 2000 Nats), NO, NO.

 

[blue dog]

I didn't say MK actually has robbed someone's chance to go to worlds. Sneaking into the third spot doesn't mean much except for personal memories.
MK actually has robbed two golds from Slutskaya, one gold form Lu Chen, Lipinski, Cohen and Meissner, and one bronze from Ando. I'm positive she is the one most responsible for long stagnation and boredom of the sport. Only patriotic Americans will love those eight years.

Not necessarily, Satorare-san. If you recall, Slutskaya had the gold in both 2000 and 2001. Both times she skated AFTER Michelle, and had a chance to win. What did she do? Mess up.
Michelle (2000) - http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ptj_tO7tIXg
Irina (2000) - http://youtube.com/watch?v=vCBhOcfH_S8
Of course let's not forget, since you're on the topic, perhaps both skaters ROBBED Maria, who led after the SP (2000) - http://youtube.com/watch?v=W6J01LIzK0k

Michelle (2001) - http://youtube.com/watch?v=_x3Qn1dECWA
Irina (2001) - http://youtube.com/watch?v=tFN84w8Uczw

Chen Lu could've gone either way. I'm for awarding a double gold ONLY at that championship.

Michelle (1996) - http://youtube.com/watch?v=xChSUP4zaEI
Chen Lu - http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZCRaoNfU0r8

In 1998, Tara messed up the short program.

Michelle (1998 SP) - http://youtube.com/watch?v=OHfgjszz_Tk
(1998 LP) - (this one's a treat) http://youtube.com/watch?v=PB9CGhaIx0Y
Tara (1998 SP) - http://youtube.com/watch?v=zGw8RUYP2TQ
(1998 LP) - Not posted; however, unless Michelle threw a dime onto the ice that Tara tripped on in the triple flip, you can't really say she robbed Tara of the title there. If I can remember correctly, Tara skated her LP that year at nationals more conservatively; to make sure she made the Olympic team.

2000-2005 - Cohen messed up somewhere in every performance. I cannot list ALL of them. Go look them up.

2005 - Kimmie not only wasn't as polished and stretched as the other ladies there, but the triple axel had a half-turn cheat.

Michelle (2005) - http://youtube.com/watch?v=LLyh14FXGGg
Kimmie (2005) - http://youtube.com/watch?v=EZU6ApjnJFs
For the hell of it, let's compare Kimmie's triple vs. Tonya's triple - http://youtube.com/watch?v=Rl_mENscXfQ
I don't know why they ratified Kimmie's--Tonya's was a REAL triple axel.

 

[rutinia]

I know blue dog is a devoted MK fan.
Is there anyone neutral contribute to this argument?

I don't give much priorities to "clean performances." If that's what the judges valued, they just wanted to "help MK to win". That's always the case with the help from her great political backgrounds.

I believe challenges for difficulty should be more valued.
MK's "play safe and the judges help the rest" attitude is just dis****ing.
Arbitrary "artistry" was always the magic card to save the crown of boredom.

What I like about Mao is that she's always challenge new and difficult things. If she chooses to "play safe", she always wins. I DON'T LIKE that. Of course challenging is a privilege of the talent, which MK surely lacks.

You know why I don't like Yuna Kim. She's trying to dig up MK's corpse.

 

[blue dog]

I know blue dog is a devoted MK fan.
Is there anyone neutral contribute to this argument?

I don't give much priorities to "clean performances." If that's what the judges valued, they just wanted to "help MK to win". That's always the case with the help from her great political backgrounds.

I believe challenges for difficulty should be more valued.
MK's "play safe and the judges help the rest" attitude is just dis****ing.
Arbitrary "artistry" was always the magic card to save the crown of boredom.

What I like about Mao is that she's always challenge new and difficult things. If she chooses to "play safe", she always wins. I DON'T LIKE that. Of course challenging is a privilege of the talent, which MK surely lacks.

You know why I don't like Yuna Kim. She's trying to dig up MK's corpse.

So you'd rather see mistakes, injuries--as opposed to beautiful skating?

Why don't you just say it, Satorare? You want skating to turn into this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=z8-JnuCWOtE

You know, it's OK for you to prefer more challenging performances for cleaner ones. That's your PREFERENCE. But the way you are asserting that your preference is RIGHT over everyone else's is just wrong. That is what is annoying everyone every time you post. Whether you use this name, or your old one.

We all have our own preference -- that's what makes us humans, is that they're all different. However, we shouldn't insinuate that ours is right over everyone else's.

 

[rutinia]

Injuries surely increase in future. MK was "healthy" for long period because she doesn't need to do difficults 3-3s and Biellmann spins.

Mao never stops pushing the limits. Bigger jumps and greater flexibility are required. Anyone who wants to challenge her must do "more difficult" things.

I don't deny "clean" is favorable, but placing too much emphasis on it is very negative for progresses. If you want see "beautiful skating", just go another shop.

 

[Mathman]

You know why I don't like Yuna Kim. She's trying to dig up MK's corpse.

I love Michelle and Kim is fine with me, but I've got to give you credit for that one.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

You know why I don't like Yuna Kim. She's trying to dig up MK's corpse.

Poor Michelle, dead at 25. She'll be missed by those who saw her skate but in another 25 years, she'll be considered not influential by the new breed of fans.

Joe

 

[tagmats]

Mirai stunned Japanese fans

yah! she stunned me!!
I posted her program on youtube.
she is nice and cute.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeDz8oK0gtc
enjoy:agree:

 

[blue dog]

Injuries surely increase in future. MK was "healthy" for long period because she doesn't need to do difficults 3-3s and Biellmann spins.

Mao never stops pushing the limits. Bigger jumps and greater flexibility are required. Anyone who wants to challenge her must do "more difficult" things.

I don't deny "clean" is favorable, but placing too much emphasis on it is very negative for progresses. If you want see "beautiful skating", just go another shop.

Well, satorare, one can have both beautiful skating and pushing the limits. That is where Mao and the new wave of skaters come in (including Yeon-Ah Kim). They're trying to combine artistry with the technical.

If anyone is trying to dig up Michelle's corpse (I'm sure she'll be surprised to find out she is dead!) it would be Mao, wouldn't you think? I mean, Mao is being coached by the man who coached Michelle, who himself said that Mao reminds him of Michelle.

Yeon-Ah, on the other hand, said she idolized, but wants to surpass Michelle.

Of course, other than landing the tricks, these two girls have to do what she's done--

5 WC
2 Olympic Medals
9 National titles (I think Yeon-Ah will have it easier, since Korea doesn't have much competition)

But above all, if those girls can make heartless people like me cry AND land the jumps (you had to admit, Salome, Taj, and Lyra had the tech and the artistry), then...the crown is theirs.

If you simply want more and more tricks, perhaps you should watch rollerblading at the X Games. I hear Fabiola da Silva of Brazil is going for the first ever 720 by a woman (that's a quad).

 

[Fossi]

I know blue dog is a devoted MK fan.
Is there anyone neutral contribute to this argument?

I don't give much priorities to "clean performances." If that's what the judges valued, they just wanted to "help MK to win". That's always the case with the help from her great political backgrounds.

I believe challenges for difficulty should be more valued.
MK's "play safe and the judges help the rest" attitude is just dis****ing.
Arbitrary "artistry" was always the magic card to save the crown of boredom.

What I like about Mao is that she's always challenge new and difficult things. If she chooses to "play safe", she always wins. I DON'T LIKE that. Of course challenging is a privilege of the talent, which MK surely lacks.

You know why I don't like Yuna Kim. She's trying to dig up MK's corpse.

I am hardly an MK fan, but I would rather watch Michelle skate to your version of conservative than watch teh Queen of 2footed landings, Sasha Cohen stumble on the ice and two foot most her 3jumps. Sasha didn't take many risks after she started winning either. Winning is the name of the game. Sarah Hughes took risks and she was rewarded.

Mao is wonderful. She is the future of skating and she dang well knows it, but is she the next Cohen? All hyped up, all the supposed tricks, but hasn't won a major title YET? Heck at least Mao has the 3/3's, good technique and a real quad to boot.

 

[attyfan]

First, I think it is humanly impossible for any of the "young'uns" -- Mao, Yu Na, Mirai, Caroline, etc. -- to live up to the hype they are getting. This isn't a reflection on their talent -- this is a reflection on the hype they are getting.

Second, skating goes in "fads" -- sometimes, the more "athletic" or risk takers are being rewarded; sometimes, the more conservative or artistic. I think right now we are still in a "athletic" fad, and this is encouraged by the CoP, because taking risks (more athleticism, more rotations and falling) may be better rewarded than "playing it safe" (doubling and skating clean). However, this fad has coincided with falling ratings -- and Torino (with five falls in the OD alone) had the worst ratings for any Olys in a long, long time. People do not like to watch splat-fests. This may alter the development of the CoP to promote cleaner routines, and if that means bringing back conservatism or caution, so be it.

 

[rutinia]

I don't hide a disgust for the word "artistry." It's nothing more than an instrument of political favoritism to help certain skaters. Anyone(skater/fan) values "artistry" should go pro and ice shows. At least in competitive skating, techniques take the absolute priority. Isn't it very reasonable for technically superior skaters to have higher PCS. Women lacking difficult 3-3s and Biellmann positions are "inferior" in this sense, and don't deserve high PCS. It's quite meaningless to value "beautiful skating" in a program of empty transitions and mediocre elements.
Since last season, because of the generation change, the PCS tend to reflect more technical (mostly jumping) capabilities than past achievements. Can you imagine Yuna Kim could receive higher PCS than Suguri during the old MK era? Today every skater is valued/ranked by the "distance" from Mao Asada. Yuna Kim and Kimmie Meissner are two biggest beneficiary of this new era. Meissner is undoubtedly "better" than MK and SC in this respect. By the same token, more chances are opened up for junior skaters. Unlike old days, MK's "classic beautiful layback spins" worth only a half of Mirai's fast Biellman.
What I call "MK strategy" -- countering supeior techniques by artistry(read "favoritism") -- wont work anymore. If they want the judges' "favor", they can't avoid more difficult elements and moves. The "top skater" is not an exception. She can't maintain the position by same tricks for eight years. A great progress for ladies figure skating!

 

[bekalc]

Yu-na would beat Fumie in the old system to. As for artistic scores, no offense but Yu-na is a lovely skater, who has beautiful skating, and she would have done very, very well in the 6.0 system.
As would have Mao. As for Meissner being better than MK or Sasha, personally I think that's debatable. Meissner's triple/triples are rarely ratified. Meissner has not shown the ability to consistently hit 7 triple programs year in and out as Michelle has.

As for Michelle versus Irina. If I remember I always thought that Irina's major issue was the fact that she could never skate clean... I think there was only one worlds 2005, where Irina was actaully clean. There was one case to where, I remember everyone was talking about Irina hitting triple/triples. But at the worlds long program, Michelle was the one who hit the triple/triple.

If Irina had been hitting as many triple/triple combinations as Yu-na Kim, and Miki Ando have been hitting. Irina would have beaten Michelle on multiple occasions but she didn't. It's not about what the skater can do in practice, it's what the skater can actually do during the competition. And there are reports in many places that Michelle has been seen hitting harder triple/triples in practices for years. It's just well since Irina and others didn't seem to be hitting there jumps, there was no need for Michelle to take an unnecessary risk.

And as for technique, most people will tell you that when it comes to basic skating, Michelle Kwan had wonderful technique. She had gorgeous edges, speed, control over the issue. She had lovely basics. I'm not the biggest Michelle fan in the world. And I wish she had pushed the sport more technically but please.

 

[Mathman]

Anyway, all that's over and done with. Fussing and fuming and getting red in the face is not going to change the results of past contests.

Onward and upward. :agree:

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Yu-na would beat Fumie in the old system to. As for artistic scores, no offense but Yu-na is a lovely skater, who has beautiful skating, and she would have done very, very well in the 6.0 system.
As would have Mao. As for Meissner being better than MK or Sasha, personally I think that's debatable. Meissner's triple/triples are rarely ratified. Meissner has not shown the ability to consistently hit 7 triple programs year in and out as Michelle has.

Which poster wrote Meissner being better than MK or Sasha? It's true that Kimmie beat Sasha in Calgary but that was just a competition. Great skaters, imo, do not have to win competitions.

Michelle said goodbye to 7 triples in Nagano and we haven't seen them since. However, imo, she is greatest skater ever.

Let's give Kimmie a chance. she's up against an Asian powerhouse.

Joe