Mirai stunned Japanese fans -> Do you like Michelle Kwan?

[Fozzie Bear]

Is there anyone neutral contribute to this argument?

Oh wait, you're serious... How ironic.

You're not doing Mao or Mirai any favors by hijacking this thread to spout your obvious anti-Kwan bull-dung.

That being said, I agree with Mathman. Onward and upward! Go Mirai!

 

[bekalc]

Which poster wrote Meissner being better than MK or Sasha? It's true that Kimmie beat Sasha in Calgary but that was just a competition. Great skaters, imo, do not have to win competitions.

Michelle said goodbye to 7 triples in Nagano and we haven't seen them since. However, imo, she is greatest skater ever.

Let's give Kimmie a chance. she's up against an Asian powerhouse.

Joe

I think she meant in terms of jumps Meissner is better. I don't think I'm being too hard on Meissner myself. Personally, I think that Michelle Kwan would have an awfully time competiting against the Asian Powerhouses, even in Michelle's prime. That's why I refuse to call Michelle the greatest skater ever. IMO the greatest skater ever has to be someone who combines beautiful skating with technical advancement. Something Michelle did not do. I think Michelle would have had a hard time against Kristi Yamaguchi.

Now, on the other hand Alexei Yagudin, and Plushenko. They could go in the books as some of the best skaters ever.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Your opinions are noted.

 

[Eddie Lee]

QUOTE: Yu-na would beat Fumie in the old system to. As for artistic scores, no offense but Yu-na is a lovely skater, who has beautiful skating, and she would have done very, very well in the 6.0 system.
As would have Mao. As for Meissner being better than MK or Sasha, personally I think that's debatable. Meissner's triple/triples are rarely ratified. Meissner has not shown the ability to consistently hit 7 triple programs year in and out as Michelle has. END QUOTE

I've been following skating for a long time, and rarely miss the important competitions. I hold that Michelle's hitting seven-triple programs with any regularity during the past several years is folklore. IIndeed, it takes a triple/triple to achieve a seven-triple program and a triple/triple for Kwan is as scarce as hen's teeth. I really can't recall one since before 2002 Olympics though I'm told there was a successful one at one of the Worlds' Qualifying rounds. She always had one planned, but didn't follow through. Anybody care to document those "consistent" 7-triple programs?

 

[bekalc]

Yu-na would beat Fumie in the old system to. As for artistic scores, no offense but Yu-na is a lovely skater, who has beautiful skating, and she would have done very, very well in the 6.0 system.
As would have Mao. As for Meissner being better than MK or Sasha, personally I think that's debatable. Meissner's triple/triples are rarely ratified. Meissner has not shown the ability to consistently hit 7 triple programs year in and out as Michelle has. END QUOTE

I've been following skating for a long time, and rarely miss the importaant competions. I hold that Michelle's hitting seven-triple programs with any regularity during the past several years is folklore. IIndeed, it takes a triple/triple to achieve a seven-triple program and a triple/triple for Kwan is as scarce as hen's teeth. I really can't recall one since before 2002 Olympics though I'm told there was a successful one at one of the Worlds' Qualifying rounds. She always had one planned, but didn't follow through. Anybody care to document those "consistent" 7-triple programs?

Well Michelle Kwan after the 2002 Olympics, wasn't the Michelle Kwan before the 2002 Olympics. She only won one world championship after 2002. So, I was talking before, but even I'm not sure about how many triples she landed.

 

[DaveT]

Which poster wrote Meissner being better than MK or Sasha? It's true that Kimmie beat Sasha in Calgary but that was just a competition. Great skaters, imo, do not have to win competitions.

Michelle said goodbye to 7 triples in Nagano and we haven't seen them since. However, imo, she is greatest skater ever.

Let's give Kimmie a chance. she's up against an Asian powerhouse.

Joe

Did you mean Nagano as in 98 Olympics Nagano as Michelle's last 7 triple performance? I'm assuming you did not.

Thanks bekalc for pointing out though many love to talk of Kwan winning on the second mark, it's just cannot be supported by fact.

 

[blue dog]

I don't hide a disgust for the word "artistry." It's nothing more than an instrument of political favoritism to help certain skaters. Anyone(skater/fan) values "artistry" should go pro and ice shows. At least in competitive skating, techniques take the absolute priority. Isn't it very reasonable for technically superior skaters to have higher PCS. Women lacking difficult 3-3s and Biellmann positions are "inferior" in this sense, and don't deserve high PCS. It's quite meaningless to value "beautiful skating" in a program of empty transitions and mediocre elements.
Since last season, because of the generation change, the PCS tend to reflect more technical (mostly jumping) capabilities than past achievements. Can you imagine Yuna Kim could receive higher PCS than Suguri during the old MK era? Today every skater is valued/ranked by the "distance" from Mao Asada. Yuna Kim and Kimmie Meissner are two biggest beneficiary of this new era. Meissner is undoubtedly "better" than MK and SC in this respect. By the same token, more chances are opened up for junior skaters. Unlike old days, MK's "classic beautiful layback spins" worth only a half of Mirai's fast Biellman.
What I call "MK strategy" -- countering supeior techniques by artistry(read "favoritism") -- wont work anymore. If they want the judges' "favor", they can't avoid more difficult elements and moves. The "top skater" is not an exception. She can't maintain the position by same tricks for eight years. A great progress for ladies figure skating!

Satorare, no one is here is against pushing the sport. We were all excited when these young girls were trying 3/3's. However, they shouldn't TRY these things if they haven't perfected them. 88 Oly champ Brian Boitano tells people that he doesn't believe in putting in a jump that isn't competition safe. You're not only asking for uglier routines, but more injured competitors. In my opinion, you don't care about the skaters, and that is a very sad thing. These people who train a lifetime to try to achieve their goals are nothing more than trained monkeys to you.

At any rate, it's nice that they try Biellmanns, but can they invent a new position? Or at least master the old one? I've never seen a nicely stretched camel from Mao--is that because she's so far advanced that she never practiced them? Also, she doesn't do the "easy" triple Salchow--is this because she wants to push the sport? Or the fact that there is something in her technique that she should fix?

Also, is doing a bad triple triple pushing the sport? See, I'd like to know whether I, a beginner should be attempting them during my test--whether I should be pushing the sport. I mean, it's an exciting time in the sport, right?

Oh, one more thing--why don't you post under your old name anymore?

 

[Eddie Lee]

Well Michelle Kwan after the 2002 Olympics, wasn't the Michelle Kwan before the 2002 Olympics. She only won one world championship after 2002. So, I was talking before, but even I'm not sure about how many triples she landed.

Well, lets go back even before the 2002 O's to '98 O's. She did no triple/triple there (though she did a beautiful program of 6 triples). I'm hard-pressed to recall ever seeing Kwan perform a triple/triple in competition. Perhaps 1996 World's? Anybody care to enlighten us with documentation? I must hand it to Michelle, however. She is the surest, most consistent jumper, and artist over a long span of time. Kudos to her.

Edited to correct. She did 7 triples, but no 3/3 combo. She did a jump sequence which allowed for 7 triples. See Mathman, below for the jump program.

 

[bekalc]

Did you mean Nagano as in 98 Olympics Nagano as Michelle's last 7 triple performance? I'm assuming you did not.

Thanks bekalc for pointing out though many love to talk of Kwan winning on the second mark, it's just cannot be supported by fact.

Nagano wasn't the last 7 triple performance from Michelle. Michelle Kwan had a 7 triple performance at the 2000 and 2001 world championships. At the 2001, world championships Michelle landed a triple-toe loop/triple toe loop combination. It's in wiki.

She also landed one, I believe at the Olympics in Nagano. Go to the Mkforum, those guys know all the statistics there.

While Irina landed a 3/3/2 which was more difficult, she badly doublefooted the end landing, and had two other questionable landings, while Michelle was perfect. So that could have gone either way there. Under the 6.0 system, you didn't have to do a 3/3 to get 7 triples in there. I don't know how many triple/triples Michelle landed at other points of her career, but I do know that at least 3 of her world championships came from having 7 triple programs.


And I could be wrong but if Rutina is complaining about Michelle beating Lu Chen, than she's really contradicting herself. Because at that particular Worlds Lu Chen only landed 6 triples and Michelle landed 7 triples. So according to Rutina's own standards Michelle deserved that win.

 

[Mathman]

Michelle's 7 triple performances

1995 Worlds
1995 Skate America
1996 Worlds
1997 Skate America
1998 US Nationals
1998 Olympics
1998 Worlds (qualifying round)
1998 World Pro
2000 Worlds (long program)
2001 Worlds (qualifying round)
2001 Worlds (long program)

6 triple preformances

1993 Olympic Festival
1994 Worlds
1994 Hershey's Kisses U.S. Pro-Am FS Championship
1994 Goodwill Games
1995 Skate Canada
1996 US Nationals
1996 Champion Series Final
1996 Hershey's Kisses Figure Skating Challenge
1996 Skate America, 1996 Trophee Lalique
1996 US Figure Skating Postal Service Challenge
1997 Worlds (long program)
1998 Worlds (long program)
1999 US Nationals
1999 Worlds (qualifying round)
1999 Worlds (long program)
1999 Skate America
2000 Grand Prix Final (1st LP)
2000 US Nationals
2000 Worlds (qualifying round)
2001 US Nationals
2001 Skate America
2002 Grand Prix Final (2nd LP)
2002 US Nationals
2002 Worlds (qualifying round)
2002 Worlds (long program)
2003 US Nationals
2003 Worlds (qualifying round)
2003 Worlds (long program)
2004 US Nationals
2004 Campbell's International Figure Skating Classic

 

[bekalc]

Michelle's 7 triple performances

1995 Worlds
1995 Skate America
1996 Worlds
1997 Skate America
1998 US Nationals
1998 Olympics
1998 Worlds (qualifying round)
1998 World Pro
2000 Worlds (long program)
2001 Worlds (qualifying round)
2001 Worlds (long program)

6 triple preformances

1993 Olympic Festival
1994 Worlds
1994 Hershey's Kisses U.S. Pro-Am FS Championship
1994 Goodwill Games
1995 Skate Canada
1996 US Nationals
1996 Champion Series Final
1996 Hershey's Kisses Figure Skating Challenge
1996 Skate America, 1996 Trophee Lalique
1996 US Figure Skating Postal Service Challenge
1997 Worlds (long program)
1998 Worlds (long program)
1999 US Nationals
1999 Worlds (qualifying round)
1999 Worlds (long program)
1999 Skate America
2000 Grand Prix Final (1st LP)
2000 US Nationals
2000 Worlds (qualifying round)
2001 US Nationals
2001 Skate America
2002 Grand Prix Final (2nd LP)
2002 US Nationals
2002 Worlds (qualifying round)
2002 Worlds (long program)
2003 US Nationals
2003 Worlds (qualifying round)
2003 Worlds (long program)
2004 US Nationals
2004 Campbell's International Figure Skating Classic

Now, I'd love to see a list of how many 7 triple performances Irina has had.

 

[DaveT]

Nagano wasn't the last 7 triple performance from Michelle. Michelle Kwan had a 7 triple performance at the 2000 and 2001 world championships. At the 2001, world championships Michelle landed a triple-toe loop/triple toe loop combination. It's in wiki.

She also landed one, I believe at the Olympics in Nagano. Go to the Mkforum, those guys know all the statistics there.

While Irina landed a 3/3/2 which was more difficult, she badly doublefooted the end landing, and had two other questionable landings, while Michelle was perfect. So that could have gone either way there. Under the 6.0 system, you didn't have to do a 3/3 to get 7 triples in there. I don't know how many triple/triples Michelle landed at other points of her career, but I do know that at least 3 of her world championships came from having 7 triple programs.


And I could be wrong but if Rutina is complaining about Michelle beating Lu Chen, than she's really contradicting herself. Because at that particular Worlds Lu Chen only landed 6 triples and Michelle landed 7 triples. So according to Rutina's own standards Michelle deserved that win.

Thanks, I'm still assuming he wasn't talking about Nagano Olympics. This also adds a few more examples for Eddie. She did do the 3/3 in both the QR and the LP in 01 at Worlds (both 7 triples), she did do the 3/3 at 00 Worlds (also 7 triples), I cannot think of them all here but I know QR at 02 Worlds had a 3/3, 99 Nationals LP also had a 3/3, 97 Worlds LP had a 3/3 too. Sure I've missed some GPs and a GPF. Eddie mentioned 96 Worlds but she did not land a 3/3 there but I think she did at Nationals.

I'm trying to think of a WC that Kwan won where she didn't land more triples than the others that Rutinia could be talking of, did Cupcake land 7 in 03?

 

[Mathman]

Well, lets go back even before the 2002 O's to '98 O's. She did no triple/triple there (though she did a beautiful program of 6 triples).

You mean, of course, a beautiful program with 7 triples: 3Lz+2t, 3Lo+2T seq, 3F, 2A, 3Lo, 3S, 3Lz, 3T.

I'm hard-pressed to recall ever seeing Kwan perform a triple/triple in competition.

Hard-pressed or not, she did a triple-triple at

1995 Skate America
1996 Champions series (GP) final
1997 Champions series final
1997 Worlds
1999 U.S. Nationals
1999 Skate America
2000 Worlds LP
2001 GP finals
2001 Worlds QR
2001 Worlds LP
2002 Worlds QR

You can check all this out for yourself at Heather's Jump Statistics:

http://heatherw.com/mk/jumps.htm

 

[bekalc]

Now granted a triple toe /triple toe is not as difficult as the triple/triples Kristy was doing and the triple/triples Irina/Tara (if they weren't cheated), and the Asian sensations are doing now. But well Michelle did land them. And quite frankly, when Michelle was winning her championships, most cases she won with technically superior programs to the others.

I agree that under Michelle's reign figure skating suffered technically, but it's not all Michelle's fault. Very few people challenged her during her peak. And if other skaters weren't able to handle 6/7 triple performances, why should Michelle risk a risky competition that she doesn't have one hundred percent down. Reports are that Michelle was taught the 75% rule, if you aren't landing a jump/combo 75% of the time, you are not to put it in your program.

 

[rutinia]

If Yuna Kim skates clean, she will beat Suguri even under the old system. Suguri doesn't have a loop(even a double) too. That's mainly because of the technical merit of 3-3s and Biellmann. Yet Kim's second marks would be always "undervalued". Suguri is not a threat to MK, but Yuna Kim could be. The politics of ISU favoritism doesn't work for her.
Do the judges love her? At least, they consider her as "Mao's rival" for the last season. Someone is given that position to make the "competitions" work. But for this season, I don't think so. Even with blatantly inflated scores, she couldn't do the job after all.

 

[bekalc]

If Yuna Kim skates clean, she will beat Suguri even under the old system. Suguri doesn't have a loop(even a double) too. That's mainly because of the technical merit of 3-3s and Biellmann. Yet Kim's PCS would be always "undervalued".
Do the judges love her? At least, they consider her as "Mao's rival" for the last season. Someone is given that position to make the "competitions" work. But for this season, I don't think so. Even with blatantly inflated scores, she couldn't do the job after all.

Early last season, Yu-na's Pcs were underevaluated this is seen against Suguri at Skate Canada. Yu-na's Pc scores went up as the judges got to know her better.

Yu-na has a lovely lyrical style to her skating. She is loved by all kinds of skating fans for this. And because of that skating quality she gets high PC scores. As she should.

Another strength that Yu-na has is GOE on her jumps. Yu-na has textbook jumps, so textbook that the ISU has used Yu-na's jumps in their video manual. With the new system taking off more points for flutzs, this will be a nice cushion for Yu-na against Mao, especially if Yu-na can get that triple loop under control. And reports are that as hear health is improving so is her triple loop...

Even without Mao in the picture, Yu-na Kim would be very well received by the judges. On her own merits.

 

[GoldMedalist]

And I could be wrong but if Rutina is complaining about Michelle beating Lu Chen, than she's really contradicting herself. Because at that particular Worlds Lu Chen only landed 6 triples and Michelle landed 7 triples. So according to Rutina's own standards Michelle deserved that win.

Kwan did 7 Triples in 8 jumping passes.

Lu Chen did 6 Triples and an extra double axel in 7 jumping passes.

They both had amazing artistry (although I see Lu Chen's as being just a little better). Amazing Short Programs as well.

More than any other time in history, a TIE was deserved. I do feel that Lu Chen really should have won, if forced to decide upon one of them, and that the judges were (as always) easily biased and gave it to Kwan because she had the stronger season (whereas if Chen had been the one "in favor", she would have won no question). But...Kwan's efforts at that World Championship WERE deserving of a World Title. Even if she was ever so slightly outshone, imo.

 

[Mathman]

So for comparison, how did the "now girls" do last year?

Ando

Skate America: 7 triples
Eric Bompard: 6
GP Final: 2
Worlds: 7

Asada

Skate America: 3 triples.
NHK: 7
GP final: 4
Worlds: 6

Kim

Skate Canada: 4 triples
Eric Bompard: 6
GP final: 5
Worlds: 4

Meissner

Skate America: 6 triples
Eric Bompard: 5
Four Continents: 5
Worlds: 5

 

[attyfan]

...
More than any other time in history, a TIE was deserved. ...

ITA!!!

 

[bekalc]

Kwan did 7 Triples in 8 jumping passes.

Lu Chen did 6 Triples and an extra double axel in 7 jumping passes.

They both had amazing artistry (although I see Lu Chen's as being just a little better). Amazing Short Programs as well.

More than any other time in history, a TIE was deserved. I do feel that Lu Chen really should have won, if forced to decide upon one of them, and that the judges were (as always) easily biased and gave it to Kwan because she had the stronger season (whereas if Chen had been the one "in favor", she would have won no question). But...Kwan's efforts at that World Championship WERE deserving of a World Title. Even if she was ever so slightly outshone, imo.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm merely holding Rutina to her own standards. Since she criticizes rewarding pretty skating, then she must admit that Michelle Kwan deserved to be world champion that year ,because Michelle landed one more jump.. That's all. It's at all a matter of what I think because I thought that Michelle had more technically content but Lulu was more beautiful. In fact, according to Rutina's standard's shouldn't Michelle have been the winner the previous year as well? (95 since she hit 7 clean triple jumps while every else fell.) Then Michelle according to the jumps which is what Rutina values should have won the free skate, and on account of Bobek who was in the lead finishing 4th Michelle would have won. Let's be fair in our standards here. According to Rutina's, when Michelle was the young up in coming jumping bean, she was robbed.