Mirai stunned Japanese fans -> Do you like Michelle Kwan?

[bekalc]

To me, the trouble with relegating "artistry" to the back burner is -- why have figure skating at all? If you want to see someone jump high, there is already a sport like that -- high jumping. Why put on skates?

We already have plenty of sports. You can take up soccer, kayaking, or Grecco-Roman wrestling.

And yet, we are drawn to skating. Evidently figure skating has something that is missing from other sports.

I'm not relegating artistry to the back ground, and I'm not just blaming Michelle. Quite frankly, I want a skater who pushes the sport technically and artistry. As what is now happening with the new young duo of Mao/Yu-na.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I'm not relegating artistry to the back ground, and I'm not just blaming Michelle. Quite frankly, I want a skater who pushes the sport technically and artistry. As what is now happening with the new young duo of Mao/Yu-na.

However, there are fans of figure skating who want to see exquisite technique when doing the elements and exquisite footwork, and the skaters' own personal style. For these fans, pushing the sport is not so important as presenting something special out of what is ordinary.

Both wishes are valid.

Joe

 

[rutinia]

The usage of "artistry" is the problem. As for MK, it just means "MK can't match IS in techniques, but we want her to win by any means, SO LET'S DO IT" type of expedience. It has become much important after 2001, when IS made decisive technical superiority over MK by the 3Lz-3Lo. Everyone knows IS is "superior " to MK as an athlete. Even with one big mistake, IS always deserves to beat "clean MK". Just imagine, if IS was an American, very few people would talk about "artistry" things.The Americans simply love "a heroine to raise the flag to the highest point", aren't they? Lu Chen's "artistry" is just a joke. To make legends out of the controversial 1996 worlds, "MK's rival" must be a great artist to beat. "Artistry" is subjective, arbitrary, an instrument of political favoritism, filled with prejudices and manipulations, easily leads to fixed competitions, and always on the side of legendary Michelle Kwan!

 

[bekalc]

However, there are fans of figure skating who want to see exquisite technique when doing the elements and exquisite footwork, and the skaters' own personal style. For these fans, pushing the sport is not so important as presenting something special out of what is ordinary.

Both wishes are valid.

Joe

Well, that issue is something to take up with COP. I thought that under 6.0 all that was really there was jumps..

Frankly, I think that Yu-na Kim has a very special unique style to watch on the ice. Mao doesn't jump at me as much, but her short was exquisite...I think you can have both lovely footwork in between elements, and triple /triples.

 

[blue dog]

The usage of "artistry" is the problem. As for MK, it just means "MK can't match IS in techniques, but we want her to win by any means, SO LET'S DO IT" type of expedience. It has become much important after 2001, when IS made decisive technical superiority over MK by the 3Lz-3Lo. Everyone knows IS is "superior " to MK as an athlete. Even with one big mistake, IS always deserves to beat "clean MK". Just imagine, if IS was an American, very few people would talk about "artistry" things.The Americans simply love "a heroine to raise the flag to the highest point", aren't they? Lu Chen's "artistry" is just a joke. To make legends out of the controversial 1996 worlds, "MK's rival" must be a great artist to beat. "Artistry" is subjective, arbitrary, an instrument of political favoritism, filled with prejudices and manipulations, easily leads to fixed competitions, and always on the side of legendary Michelle Kwan!

Lu Chen's artistry was never a joke. We thought Lu Chen to be a great artist, much like your Japanese compatriots find Johnny Weir and Jeffrey Buttle (both of whom you have not hidden your disdain for, back when you posted under your old name of satorare). But the judges in 1996 were using the "standard" that you yourself seem to value--they let a clean 7-triple performance of Michelle's beat Lu Chen's 6-triple performance. You seem to quickly abandon your dogma when it is convenient for you.

Everyone knows IS is "superior " to MK as an athlete. Even with one big mistake, IS always deserves to beat "clean MK".

It seems that you'd want all 'athletic' skaters to always beat the artistic ones. Your belief brings me back to those playground days, when the big kids would pick on the little ones. Your belief is very harmful to people in general, because if you had your way, imperialism would be the way of the world!

So, in your perfect world, what would happen? Pluschenko would beat all--Tonya Harding and Midori Ito would've split the gold medal...there would be no dance, because it's just not as acrobatic as pairs?

I have a question for you--who do you think should've won the contest that these two performances came from?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3giL2xsRlTY
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8_CGLZ4WAWo

 

[demarinis5]

The usage of "artistry" is the problem. As for MK, it just means "MK can't match IS in techniques, but we want her to win by any means, SO LET'S DO IT" type of expedience. It has become much important after 2001, when IS made decisive technical superiority over MK by the 3Lz-3Lo. Everyone knows IS is "superior " to MK as an athlete. Even with one big mistake, IS always deserves to beat "clean MK". Just imagine, if IS was an American, very few people would talk about "artistry" things.The Americans simply love "a heroine to raise the flag to the highest point", aren't they? Lu Chen's "artistry" is just a joke. To make legends out of the controversial 1996 worlds, "MK's rival" must be a great artist to beat. "Artistry" is subjective, arbitrary, an instrument of political favoritism, filled with prejudices and manipulations, easily leads to fixed competitions, and always on the side of legendary Michelle Kwan!

Lord have mercy on Golden Skate Forum!!!

 

[rutinia]

It seems that you'd want all 'athletic' skaters to always beat the artistic ones.

Only skaters with the imperial powers can use "artisty" weapons against techniques. Very unfair, indeed. In sportworld, if MK wants to challenge IS, she must do the 3Lz-3Lo too. Otherwise just vanish from the scene.

 

[tagmats]

"Artistry" is a very useful, convenient and untrustworthy word.:think:

 

[blue dog]

"Artistry" is a very useful, convenient and untrustworthy word.:think:

So is technique. There is no such thing as a textbook technique, even though we'd like to believe it. How many times has Mao FULLY ROTATED (the way the men do it) that darned triple axel? Or, for that matter, her triple salchow?

We're forgetting that skating is a very subjective sport. No two skaters skate alike--no two skaters do a jump or a spin or a footwork pass exactly the same way.

As I said previously, rutinia-tagmats-satorare, if you don't like artistry in skating, then go watch:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=41okie2ifTY

Oh, and changing your name won't make you any credible.

 

[tagmats]

Calm down please. Im not rutiana. I gave JUST my opinion.

 

[tagmats]

And I wont have a talk with an impolite man/woman like you.
Sorry.:agree:

 

[rutinia]

:So is technique. There is no such thing as a textbook technique, even though we'd like to believe it.

Don't change the subject.

MK's "superiority in artistry" over IS is subjective and arbitrary.
She has the world imperial power behind her.

IS's "superiority in techniques" over MK is objective and substantial.
She has the most difficult 3-3s and change foot Biellmanns.

Don't mix it, blue dog!

 

[Kathy]

Don't change the subject.


IS's "superiority in techniques" over MK is objective and substantial.
She has the most difficult 3-3s and change foot Biellmanns.

Don't mix it, blue dog!

But she doesn't take your soul to the heavens and make you hear the angels sing when she does it - and therein lies the magic of Michelle. Course if ya don't feel your soul then Michelle's artistry would definitely be lost on you. And for those of us who enjoy our souls being taken on a journey to the heavens, we'll take Michelle's magic over wobbly bielmans and difficult 3-3's any day of the week. The whole is truely greater than the sum of it's parts - at least to us artistic types.

 

[rutinia]

But she doesn't take your soul to the heavens and make you hear the angels sing when she does it - and therein lies the magic of Michelle. Course if ya don't feel your soul then Michelle's artistry would definitely be lost on you. And for those of us who enjoy our souls being taken on a journey to the heavens, we'll take Michelle's magic over wobbly bielmans and difficult 3-3's any day of the week. The whole is truely greater than the sum of it's parts - at least to us artistic types.

Many Americans consider their values are the world standards, but that's not always the case. "Artistry" is not like "democracy" or "human rights".
Of course, if IS was an American, same person would cheer for the "great techniques."

 

[blue dog]

Don't change the subject.

MK's "superiority in artistry" over IS is subjective and arbitrary.
She has the world imperial power behind her.

IS's "superiority in techniques" over MK is objective and substantial.
She has the most difficult 3-3s and change foot Biellmanns.

Don't mix it, blue dog!

I'm not changing the subject! Technique is just as subjective as artistry. Irina may have had the hardest 3-3's attempted in competition, but it was rare that she did them cleanly. In fact, I don't ever remember her landing a clean 3S/3R cleanly since 1997 worlds, when she was buried in 6th place. Her 2000 GPF 3Z/3R came to a dead stop after the landing. How is that clean? When the "rules" state that each jump must have a RUNNING edge after that. She rarely had that running edge--and I'm having a hard time admitting this, because I am an Irina fan!

Part of having good technique (again, this is subjective--as you seem to believe attempting a jump means one has good technique) also means being consistent. While Irina consistently attempted 3-3's, it was rare for her to land them cleanly. While Michelle's "easier" 3-3, on the other hand, is cleaner when she lands it. To date, it is the only 3-3 that I've seen where the second triple is higher than the first.

Don't get me started on Irina's back-to-back Biellmann attempts. She biellmannized her program to hide:

1. Poor spiral position (I believe the ISU has put out a rule that insists the women do REAL spirals)
2. Poor layback (she has to do the catchfoot layback, as her classic layback position is nothing to write home about).
3. An OK camel position (so she doughnut-ed her camel)

You didn't answer my question earlier, Rutinia--

Who should've won 2007 Canadian Nationals? Joannie or Mira?

 

[rutinia]

blue dog

I think a wobby 3Lz-3Lo is by far superior to a clean 3T-3T. Having difficult combo is a sign of atheletic strength and she definitely deserves higher valuation. Same for biellmanns. IS can't get away with "classic simple layback spins" because she doesn't have a patronage of the world empire. I appreciate challenges for difficulty, rather than "clean" but safe plays.

I'm not ready to say much about Canadian nationals. I like both Rochette and Mira Leung. Good for Mira surviving a (possible) conspirary of Skate Canada against her. At least, Mira has many things Rochette lacks. For example, 3-2Lo combos, (one handed) biellmann spins, flexible spiral positions, and relatively strong nerves. If Skate Canada is bold enough to choose Mira as the "top Canadian", her PCS will rise dramatically.

EDITED

 

[sorcerer]

Well, "satorare" can be translated as "detected of what's hidden in his mind" which was a black humour to me reading his/her outspoken lop-sided self-rightiousness.

Now if rutinia really has been satorared as "satorare", we might as well disregard his/her spiteful expressions toward MK or whoever. (As I said, the "expression" part.)
The more you get angry, the more satorare will be satisfied. Satorare enjoys the anger that he/she provokes.

If rutinia is not satorare, then please forgive me for the mistaking.

...
What rutinia find as favoritism is caused by what takes Kathy and others to a trip to heaven.
I'd give it, temporarily, another untrustworthy word, AURA.

I am neither religious, superstitious, nor intend to be illogcal, but AURA does sometimes come and radiate from the performer and brings aesthetic chemistry into his/her performances. If you have experiences such as playing in a band and improvising in jam sessions you'd know what I mean.

I've never seen MK in her best days but I can well imagine that she often displayed AURA on ice.

Whether it is right to let such aura affect the judges is another question.
And whether you are able to feel such aura as a spectator is still another question.

 

[blue dog]

Sorcerer--you talk of aura. Let me show you.

Watch this performance. It's a great performance, but lacking of the usual aura:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PJmp_aG_4Wo

This one--full of aura. Even fans of the last skater will agree...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EA1iC8IWV74

Both were beautiful, but one oozed aura, and was having the night of her life!

 

[antmanb]

Frankly that's OK to me. But Mao seems very ambitious. She aims to conquer the summit of every technical mountain. Jumps better than Ito, spins better than Ruh, sipirals better than SC, footwork...she's already the best.

Oh come on...jumps better than Ito??? Spins better than Ruh???? Not. In. A. Million. Years.

Mao is an incredible jumper but she gets neither the height nor the length that Ito got in her jumps. She doesn't even jump as big as Tonya Harding. The one thing Mao does very well (Like Lipinski) is rotates very very fast.

And as for spinning better than Ruh - you either have clearly never seen Lucinda Ruh spin or you're idea of good spinning is about as skewed as your ideas about good skating.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Only skaters with the imperial powers can use "artisty" weapons against techniques. Very unfair, indeed. In sportworld, if MK wants to challenge IS, she must do the 3Lz-3Lo too. Otherwise just vanish from the scene.

How many times did Slutskaya land that 3Lz/3Lp that you claim she "had".

Ant