Mirai stunned Japanese fans -> Do you like Michelle Kwan?

[Fredegunda]

I think a wobby 3Lz-3Lo is by far superior to a clean 3T-3T.

So is a fall on a quad a la Jeff Buttle in Torino better than a clean triple just because he took on the athletic challenge of a quad?

When you talk about "technical superiority," do you also include basic skating skills? Or do you just mean doing the hardest tricks regardless of whether these tricks are executed correctly/with the best technique possible?

COP experts - is it possible for a crappy 3Z/3L combination to be downgraded so much (without a fall) that it is worth the same or less than a clean 3T/3T? For example if the skater flutzed and underrotated one or both jumps in the harder combo, could a perfectly executed 3T/3T ever score the same?

 

[antmanb]

Don't change the subject.

MK's "superiority in artistry" over IS is subjective and arbitrary.
She has the world imperial power behind her.

IS's "superiority in techniques" over MK is objective and substantial.
She has the most difficult 3-3s and change foot Biellmanns.

When did Slutskaya land these difficult 3/3 and not beat Kwan? Go back and count the jump s(something you seemigly adore doing) and look at the competitions. How many clean 7 triple programs has Irina Slutskaya ever done? Kwan did 11 in her career and pushing over 30 clean 6 triple programs. How many has slutskaya managed? And then look at the overall results of those competitions.

You don't have a valid argument - there are no competitions that Kwan won when slutskaya landed more jumps. And that's not even taking into account everything else that both of those ladies did really well.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

COP experts - is it possible for a crappy 3Z/3L combination to be downgraded so much (without a fall) that it is worth the same or less than a clean 3T/3T? For example if the skater flutzed and underrotated one or both jumps in the harder combo, could a perfectly executed 3T/3T ever score the same?

It depends on whether the underotation is so bad that one of the jumps is downgraded. Assuming that the jump still gets credit for the 3/3 then:

3Lz/3Lp Base value =11 if it given an overall GOE of -2 then the value of the jump would be 9, or if it was a really severe flutz or two footed landing or take off of one of both jumps then it might warrant a -3 GOE leaving it valued at 8.

3T/3T Base Value = 8 if it was good enough to warrant a +GOE then it would go up by the GOE point so a jump with excellent speed and flow throughout all parts of the jump might get an extra 1 to end up as 9 or if both jumps in addition to the flow were both high then you might get +2 to make it worth 10.

In addition to this it actually be the average of the judges GOE so it would not likely end up being a totally whole figure unless everyone gave the same GOE.

But generally a really bad 3Lz/3Lp would be rated about the same as an adequate 3T/3T, but less then a superior 3T/3T.

Ant

 

[rutinia]

Mao is an incredible jumper but she gets neither the height nor the length that Ito got in her jumps. She doesn't even jump as big as Tonya Harding. The one thing Mao does very well (Like Lipinski) is rotates very very fast.

Actually Mao doesn't need height of Ito and Harding to execute 3As. As you see, Mao's rotation speed is faster than them. But if you look at Mao's 3A and 3F at Japan Open of last year, you can't say her jumps are low. Can Ito and Harding do a 3F-3Lo? Not sure about Ito, but definitely impossible for Harding.
The faster rotation (=lower height) is advabtageous for saving stamina and avoiding potential injuries. And it's more useful for quad attempts. Ando's jumping technique is similar -- low and fast.
If you like "high jumps", just go praising Yuna Kim. She needs that height and distance for triples. How can she hope for a 3A!

 

[rutinia]

So is a fall on a quad a la Jeff Buttle in Torino better than a clean triple just because he took on the athletic challenge of a quad?

When you talk about "technical superiority," do you also include basic skating skills? Or do you just mean doing the hardest tricks regardless of whether these tricks are executed correctly/with the best technique possible?

COP experts - is it possible for a crappy 3Z/3L combination to be downgraded so much (without a fall) that it is worth the same or less than a clean 3T/3T? For example if the skater flutzed and underrotated one or both jumps in the harder combo, could a perfectly executed 3T/3T ever score the same?

Buttle's "quads" are not comparable to IS's 3Lz-3Lo.
No one (including himself) expects a success.

And what is "basic skating skills"? As I said, it's meaningless to talk about "beautiful skating" in MK style empty programs. IS can't afford to indulge in simple skating shows. She must do more difficult elements.

And I'm not talking about actual point values of "a wobbly 3Lz-3Lo" and "a clean 3T-3T". Skaters with difficult jumps are superior. Very simple truth, isn't it?

 

[antmanb]

Actually Mao doesn't need height of Ito and Harding to execute 3As. As you see, Mao's rotation speed is faster than them. But if you look at Mao's 3A and 3F at Japan Open of last year, you can't say her jumps are low. Can Ito and Harding do a 3F-3Lo? Not sure about Ito, but definitely impossible for Harding.
The faster rotation (=lower height) is advabtageous for saving stamina and avoiding potential injuries. And it's more useful for quad attempts. Ando's jumping technique is similar -- low and fast.
If you like "high jumps", just go praising Yuna Kim. She needs that height and distance for triples. How can she hope for a 3A!

So in summary your opinions on skating are:

1. Surya Bonaly was a better skater that Michelle Kwan

2. Mao Asada has better jumps than both Midori Ito and Tonya Harding

3. Mao Asada has better spins than Lucinda Ruh

I couldn't disagree more with all of your opinions. I don't think that there are any facts that you can present to actually back up any of those spurious claims either. I'm sure many posters well get a good laugh out of the assertions you made above though!!!

Ant

 

[antmanb]

And what is "basic skating skills"? As I said, it's meaningless to talk about "beautiful skating" in MK style empty programs. IS can't afford to indulge in simple skating shows. She must do more difficult elements.

Which more difficult elements are you describing? The 3Lz/3Lp she landed all of what 3 times throughout her whole career?? What other elements did she do that you think are harder than Kwan's? They both did the same triple jumps?

Skaters with difficult jumps are superior. Very simple truth, isn't it?

No that simply is completely untrue, skaters with difficult jumps are not superior. It isn't as black and white as you are trying to make out. Firstly what do you mean by "skaters with"? Do you mean skaters who attempt jumps and fall (like Buttle), skaters who attempt jumps and suceed about 50% of the time in competition (like Asada), skaters wo nail a tough jump on nearly every competitive outing (Pluschenko).

Can you not see that if someone lands a difficult than that is all they have done?

Do you think Nelidina and/or Nakano should have won skate america the year they both landed triple axels?

Ant

 

[sorcerer]

Watch this performance. It's a great performance, but lacking of the usual aura:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PJmp_aG_4Wo

This one--full of aura. Even fans of the last skater will agree...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EA1iC8IWV74

Both were beautiful, but one oozed aura, and was having the night of her life!

Thank you blue dog for the links.
It's only a decade away but both in the mist of legends.

It was in this Olympic games that Shi-chan didn't do well at all but her presence there made Miki want to be like her someday.

BTW everyone in North America, don't stay awake for so long. Sleep tight .

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Hey Rutinia - Your posts and retorts are extending the length of this thread which should have been over and done with.

You apparently want Figure Skating to be more like a Diving competition where each contestant executes a series of their best jump tricks one at a time.

No need for other silly components attached to figure skating. It's the jumps and only the jumps which will make a winner. Music, Programs, Costumes, Choreography should all be abolished. This way it will be clear who is the King and Queen of Figure Skating by their superb jump tricks.

Joe

 

[rutinia]

Which more difficult elements are you describing? The 3Lz/3Lp she landed all of what 3 times throughout her whole career?? What other elements did she do that you think are harder than Kwan's? They both did the same triple jumps?

No that simply is completely untrue, skaters with difficult jumps are not superior. It isn't as black and white as you are trying to make out. Firstly what do you mean by "skaters with"? Do you mean skaters who attempt jumps and fall (like Buttle), skaters who attempt jumps and suceed about 50% of the time in competition (like Asada), skaters wo nail a tough jump on nearly every competitive outing (Pluschenko).

Can you not see that if someone lands a difficult than that is all they have done?

Do you think Nelidina and/or Nakano should have won skate america the year they both landed triple axels?

IS has done 3Lz-3Lo only three times. If there weren't bitter memories of stolen 2001 worlds, she should try more times. Indeed, IS is the no.1 victim of the MK favoritism and imperialism.

I said skaters with difficult jumps are superior. Buttle is not a subject. Mao Asada's success rate of 3A has dropped last season. That's because of the preceding steps. I still don't understand why she insisted on that. Even Midori Ito can't do that trick. Maybe she wanted to indulge in her enormous talents. In this season, she will prove she's the best female jumper in the history.

Nakano did land 3A at 2002 SA. But she fell on a 3Lz and underrotated the 3Lz-3T. If she skated clean, she should win FS at least. I've never seen Nelidina's whole programs.

 

[Fredegunda]

It depends on whether the underotation is so bad that one of the jumps is downgraded. Assuming that the jump still gets credit for the 3/3 then:

3Lz/3Lp Base value =11 if it given an overall GOE of -2 then the value of the jump would be 9, or if it was a really severe flutz or two footed landing or take off of one of both jumps then it might warrant a -3 GOE leaving it valued at 8.

3T/3T Base Value = 8 if it was good enough to warrant a +GOE then it would go up by the GOE point so a jump with excellent speed and flow throughout all parts of the jump might get an extra 1 to end up as 9 or if both jumps in addition to the flow were both high then you might get +2 to make it worth 10.

In addition to this it actually be the average of the judges GOE so it would not likely end up being a totally whole figure unless everyone gave the same GOE.

But generally a really bad 3Lz/3Lp would be rated about the same as an adequate 3T/3T, but less then a superior 3T/3T.

Ant

Thank you, Ant. Very illuminating, actually, given the discussion about jumps.

And what is "basic skating skills"? As I said, it's meaningless to talk about "beautiful skating" in MK style empty programs.

I'm not talking about "beautiful skating," whatever that is. By basic skating skills, I mean mastery of such things as:
- Depth and quality of edges
- Flow and glide
- Speed and power
- Cleanness and sureness of steps
- Multi-directional skating
- One foot skating

 

[Justlooking]

I said skaters with difficult jumps are superior. Buttle is not a subject. Mao Asada's success rate of 3A has dropped last season. That's because of the preceding steps. I still don't understand why she insisted on that.

To put it this season in the shotr program.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

rutinia - Tell everyone that the only way to fill up a program is with high level jumps. Nothing else is necessary.

 

[rutinia]

Tell everyone that the only way to fill up a program is with high level jumps.

Like it or not, that's gonna be the way to "compete" in the MA era. After landing difficult 3-3s/3As/4s, executing extreme positions in spins and spirals, you may show off your "beautiful skating".

 

[antmanb]

IS has done 3Lz-3Lo only three times. If there weren't bitter memories of stolen 2001 worlds, she should try more times. Indeed, IS is the no.1 victim of the MK favoritism and imperialism.

I'm affraid i have no idea what you're attempting to say in the above paragraph? Are you trying to say that becuase she didn't skate well enough to beat a clean Kwan (who incidentally landed 7 triples including a 3/3 in the LP in 2001) then that stopped her from trying more 3/3s??!!! So you and your crystal ball found this out how? And i take it then that obviously that is all michelle's fault and not Irina's for not (a) outjumping kwan at 2001 worlds and (b) for not having the guts to try more 3/3s....the same crime you accuse Kwan of towards the later stages of her career?

You seem to hold different skaters to different standards and then apply reverse arguments against the ones you like.

It's pretty easy to blow most of your statements apart sincethey are not based on reason or fact.

I said skaters with difficult jumps are superior.

And i asked you what you meant by that and presented three options...what is your answer? I think your asnwer is that a skater who you say is superior is superior and nothing more!

Mao Asada's success rate of 3A has dropped last season. That's because of the preceding steps. I still don't understand why she insisted on that. Even Midori Ito can't do that trick. Maybe she wanted to indulge in her enormous talents. In this season, she will prove she's the best female jumper in the history.

Again with the crystal ball! How can you be so sure? Your posting style reminds me very much of "iloveaxel" who started a pre worlds party celebrating Mao Asada's victory on the basis that she could not lose....and we all know how that ended up!

Nakano did land 3A at 2002 SA. But she fell on a 3Lz and underrotated the 3Lz-3T. If she skated clean, she should win FS at least. I've never seen Nelidina's whole programs.

OK, ok so let me just get this straight...so if Nakano falls and underotates other jumps besides her big trick then she doesn't deserve to win. If Irina Slutskaya falls or makes mistakes on other jumps beside her one big trick she deserves to win. If Meissner lands an underotated triple axel and underotates the back half of her 3/3 combos then she deserves to win. If Neledina lands her big trick but makes mistakes then she doesn't deserve to win....

So to clarify, if the skaters you like make mistakes, they still should win. If skaters you don't like outskate the skaters you like (who have made mistakes) the skaters you like should still win, and if skaters that you haven't really heard of hit a big element but make mistakes they should not win. Is that about right?!!!

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Like it or not, that's gonna be the way to "compete" in the MA era. After landing difficult 3-3s/3As/4s, executing extreme positions in spins and spirals, you may show off your "beautiful skating".

Shall we rename this the "Dark Ages of Mao Asada" !!!!!!!!!



Ant <who should know better but since i love Mao's skating its very much tongue in cheek!>

 

[rutinia]

IS's 3Lz-3Lo is similar to Plushenko's 4-3-3. How rare they may be, indeed great achievements for the technical progresses. IS deserves high valuations for this. She should receive higher "base values" than MK to offset any single mistake (even if IS doesn't try 3Lz-3Lo). After 2002, Plushenko has always won even with one mistake. At least there was no imperial power in men's fields.

 

[rutinia]

Shall we rename this the "Dark Ages of Mao Asada" !!!!!!!!!

Very true for patriotic Americans who love to see their flag at the center.
Whatever the result at Vancouver, Mao will continue until Sochi.

 

[antmanb]

Very true for patriotic Americans who love to see their flag at the center.
Whatever the result at Vancouver, Mao will continue until Sochi.

Erm...you apparently missed the humour. And also the fact i'm British not American!!!

Ant

 

[antmanb]

IS's 3Lz-3Lo is similar to Plushenko's 4-3-3. How rare they may be, indeed great achievements for the technical progresses. IS deserves high valuations for this. She should receive higher "base values" than MK to offset any single mistake (even if IS doesn't try 3Lz-3Lo). After 2002, Plushenko has always won even with one mistake. At least there was no imperial power in men's fields.

In what way similar? Plush i think only ever landed the 4-3-3 once in competition (if at all ever clean?).

Yet again just clarifying what you've written then Irina deserved to get higher "base values" (or at least give her a one mistake cushion) becuase she once attempted a 3Lz/3Lp, and furthermore she should get that whther she attempted the 3Lz/3Lp? Where in the rules is that stated?! Even if the Judges apply your totally flawed logic Michelle still wins....go back and do the jump count...michelle not only outskated Irina on those occasions that she beat her, she also outjumped her. Go and rewatch the competetions and count up thos jumps!

You can try to re-write history for your favourites but the fans of skating can always watch the videos and youtbe clips to verify the truth, no matter how blindly you argue.

Ant