Mirai stunned Japanese fans -> Do you like Michelle Kwan?

[antmanb]

Very true for patriotic Americans who love to see their flag at the center.
Whatever the result at Vancouver, Mao will continue until Sochi.

I think this might reveal your sentiments behind the statement "Dark ages of Michelle Kwan" are you a patriotic asian?!!

Ant <Again tongue firmly in cheek and no offense meant, just yanking rutinia's chain.>

 

[Mathman]

BTW everyone in North America, don't stay awake for so long. Sleep tight .

This is the best comment on this thread.

 

[gkelly]

Yet again just clarifying what you've written then Irina deserved to get higher "base values" (or at least give her a one mistake cushion) becuase she once attempted a 3Lz/3Lp, and furthermore she should get that whther she attempted the 3Lz/3Lp? Where in the rules is that stated?! Even if the Judges apply your totally flawed logic Michelle still wins....go back and do the jump count...michelle not only outskated Irina on those occasions that she beat her, she also outjumped her. Go and rewatch the competetions and count up thos jumps!

Irina did have more jump content than Michelle at 2001 Worlds. If it had been judged under the IJS, Irina would have had higher base marks for the jumps (unless either or both loops in the two triple-triple combinations were downgraded, which is possible). Michelle probably would have had higher GOEs on average

And then the steps and spins and the basic skating and presentation (i.e., PCS) would also have to be taken into account. And the qual round and the short program. Whatever system it was judged by, I think that contest could have gone either way. To a large extent it was a choice between quantity vs. quality.

 

[antmanb]

Irina did have more jump content than Michelle at 2001 Worlds. If it had been judged under the IJS, Irina would have had higher base marks for the jumps (unless either or both loops in the two triple-triple combinations were downgraded, which is possible). Michelle probably would have had higher GOEs on average

And then the steps and spins and the basic skating and presentation (i.e., PCS) would also have to be taken into account. And the qual round and the short program. Whatever system it was judged by, I think that contest could have gone either way. To a large extent it was a choice between quantity vs. quality.

Well the jumps alone it was 6 landed triples from Irina to 7 landed triples from Kwan. Irina stepped out of the triple loop on the back of the second lutz and was a half turn short on rotation. Looking at it from a 6.0 perspective. 6 triples to 7 and only the triple flip and triple toe were trurly clean from Irina, the rest of the jumps being flawed, saved or landed at a total standstill.

Under IJS - the second combo which Irina stepped out of was a second three jump combination so maybe would have invalidated the entire jumping pass?

Ant

 

[Kathy]

Many Americans consider their values are the world standards, but that's not always the case. "Artistry" is not like "democracy" or "human rights".
Of course, if IS was an American, same person would cheer for the "great techniques."

And then there are those works of art that transcend culture. MK has made grown judges of different nations cry. There are the Michaelangelo's. Just watch MK's performance of Solome at 96 worlds, or Lyra at 98 worlds - do you really get the feeling from anything being done today that even comes close - if so I think you are "thinking" not "feeling" regardless of any culture you belong to.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Like it or not, that's gonna be the way to "compete" in the MA era. After landing difficult 3-3s/3As/4s, executing extreme positions in spins and spirals, you may show off your "beautiful skating".

I like it rutinia!! As I have said, let's abolish the music, programs, costumes, and just have the jump contest. BISNJ (Beautiful Skating Is Not Judgable).

And on TV, they could show it just before SkateBoarding. We can see which sport does the most rotations.

Joe

 

[blue dog]

How many times did Slutskaya land that 3Lz/3Lp that you claim she "had".

Ant

I only saw this once from her--and she came had to save the landing.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=U4hB_PxKz98

 

[Mathman]

Is it possible for a crappy 3Z/3L combination to be downgraded so much (without a fall) that it is worth the same or less than a clean 3T/3T?

It depends on whether the underotation is so bad that one of the jumps is downgraded. Assuming that the jump still gets credit for the 3/3 then:

3Lz/3Lp Base value =11 if it given an overall GOE of -2 then the value of the jump would be 9, or if it was a really severe flutz or two footed landing or take off of one of both jumps then it might warrant a -3 GOE leaving it valued at 8.

3T/3T Base Value = 8 if it was good enough to warrant a +GOE then it would go up by the GOE point so a jump with excellent speed and flow throughout all parts of the jump might get an extra 1 to end up as 9 or if both jumps in addition to the flow were both high then you might get +2 to make it worth 10.

As Antman says in his first sentence, the most important factor is whether the underroation is so bad as to downgrade the jump.

For instance, in 2007 Worlds SP Mao Asada attempted a triple flip/triple loop (10.5 base value). But she could only manage a 3F/1Lo with -3 GOE and ended up with only 3.0 points for the combination. It landed her fifth in the SP and cost her the World championship.

In the LP she nailed the 3F+Lo, got positive GOE, and ended up with 10.83 for the element. This, along with the triple Axel, would have been enough for her to catch Ando after all, except that Mao's easier combo, a 2A+3T, was downgraded and she received only 3.4 points for it instead of the base value 7.3 (next year it will be worth 7.5).

BUT...the real reason why the CoP has killed the 3T/3T combination is something altogether different, unrelated to the difficulty of various combos.

According to the Zayak rules you can only repeat two jumps, the repitition must be in a combo, and you cannot do any jump more than twice, regardless. So if you do a 3T+3T, under the new judging system, you have cut yourself off at the knees. Now you cannot do 2 Lutzes and 2 Flips, the highest point getters, you cannot do a 3F+3T, you cannot do a 3Lz+3T -- CoP-wise, you're screwed.

 

[Mathman]

I'm not talking about "beautiful skating," whatever that is. By basic skating skills, I mean mastery of such things as:
- Depth and quality of edges
- Flow and glide
- Speed and power
- Cleanness and sureness of steps
- Multi-directional skating
- One foot skating

Great point! :agree:

Actually, I think we are getting confused on this thread between being a good skater and being a good jumper. Skating is what happens between the blade and the ice. Yukina Ota is an outstanding skater. Alissa Czisny is an outstanding skater. Neither will win a world championship, because they are not outstanding jumpers.

U.S. imperialism aside, Michelle Kwan was an outstanding jumper, as we can easily and objectively verify. After all, her jump statistics are a matter of public record. There is really nothing to argue about. If we want to know which jumps she landed in her competitions, it's all right there in the score sheets.

Kwan was also an outstanding skater. This is also beyond rational doubt -- go to You Tube and pay especial attention to what she is doing with her blades.

The two together are why she made the podium at Worlds 9 straight times. Only Sonia Henie did better (11 straight times. Sonia was a great skater but this was before the "jumping bean" era -- Henie's hardest jump was a single Axel.)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

BUT...the real reason why the CoP has killed the 3T/3T combination is something altogether different, unrelated to the difficulty of various combos.

According to the Zayak rules you can only repeat two jumps, the repitition must be in a combo, and you cannot do any jump more than twice, regardless. So if you do a 3T+3T, under the new judging system, you have cut yourself off at the knees. Now you cannot do 2 Lutzes and 2 Flips, the highest point getters, you cannot do a 3F+3T, you cannot do a 3Lz+3T -- CoP-wise, you're screwed.

I'm not a fan of the 3T. It always seemed kind of chintzy to me and it's worse when it appears to be a toe off axel. But no mind. For some skaters that's the best they can come up with so better this than nothing at all.

I still don't understand the no points for a half loop to connect those inside take off jumps like the flip and salchow. Called a sequence, I believe. Are there any other connecting sequence moves besides the half loop?

It is an immpressive jump for performance sake because it rocks in mid air from one lean to another. Very impressive when it is done as a Triple. Only a toeless lutz can be more daring. (The flutz rocks from one side to the other but just on the ice - not in the air.)

Joe

 

[Mathman]

Oh come on...jumps better than Ito??? Spins better than Ruh???? Not. In. A. Million. Years....

I think what Rutinia is saying is not that Mao has reached this level yet, but that she aspires to challenge herself to improve in all areas.

Mao is not going to just sit back and say, I have a triple Axel, give me the gold medal. She wants to make her mark as a complete skater, uniformly excellent in all skating skills, always pushing the envelope to get even better.

For instance, now she is working on not just a plain old triple Axel, but a triple Axel out of fancy steps. As Rutinia says, Mao doesn't have to do this, and it is taking a risk. But Mao is not so much competing against the other girls as she is stiving to become the best of what she can be. I, for one, applaud her.

 

[kittyjake5]

I think what Rutinia is saying is not that Mao has reached this level yet, but that she aspires to challenge herself to improve in all areas.

Mao is not going to just sit back and say, I have a triple Axel, give me the gold medal. She wants to make her mark as a complete skater, uniformly excellent in all skating skills, always pushing the envelope to get even better.

For instance, now she is working on not just a plain old triple Axel, but a triple Axel out of fancy steps. As Rutinia says, Mao doesn't have to do this, and it is taking a risk. But Mao is not so much competing against the other girls as she is stiving to become the best of what she can be. I, for one, applaud her.

It would be nice if he/she said or meant the above, instead of constantly bashing other skaters to get his/her point across by pushing Mao's greatness (who by the way I adore) down our throats .

 

[Mathman]

I still don't understand the no points for a half loop to connect those inside take off jumps like the flip and salchow. Called a sequence, I believe. Are there any other connecting sequence moves besides the half loop?

If I am reading this correctly (? -- experts, help me out here -- ), the rules changes for next year tried to clear up the confusion about what counts as a combo, a sequence, or two separate jumps.

The new rule on combinations says

The element remains a Jump Combination even when there are two three turns in between the jumps with a slight touch down (without weight transfer).

For sequences it says:

A jump sequence may consist of any number of revolutions that must (the old rules said, "may") be linked by non-listed jumps and hops (the "and hops" was added this year) immediately following each other while maintaining the jump rhythm (knee). There can be no three turns/Mohawks during the sequence; there can be no crossovers or stroking during the sequence. (The part underlined in new this year.)

If this definition is not fulfilled, two solo jumps will be called as two separate jumps.

So, what I got out of that was, the main difference between a combo and a sequence is the change to the other foot. If you try a combo but can't quite pull off the second jump, it's OK to try to right yourself with a couple of three turns, even with a hand down, as long as you maintain your skating leg.

For a sequence, I interpret the rule to mean any kind of "hop" that immediately shifts to the other foot is OK.

But the CoP discourages sequences anyway, because -- far from getting extra points for a half-loop in between -- you are penaluzed by 20% of the value of both jumps taken separately. A 3F+3Lo combo is 10.5 points (same as the two jumps done separately), but a 3Lo-hop-3F sequence is only worth 8.4 points. hwell:

 

[rutinia]

I think what Rutinia is saying is not that Mao has reached this level yet, but that she aspires to challenge herself to improve in all areas.

Mao is not going to just sit back and say, I have a triple Axel, give me the gold medal. She wants to make her mark as a complete skater, uniformly excellent in all skating skills, always pushing the envelope to get even better.

For instance, now she is working on not just a plain old triple Axel, but a triple Axel out of fancy steps. As Rutinia says, Mao doesn't have to do this, and it is taking a risk. But Mao is not so much competing against the other girls as she is stiving to become the best of what she can be. I, for one, applaud her.

Oh, did "ant" misunderstand?

I think Mao's jumps are very close to the best in the history.
She's the first woman to equip both 3As and 3-3Lo combos.
What she needs to prove for the final conclusion are the 3A-3T and quads. She wont need them against other girls.

"ant" seems to like "high jumps" of Harding and Yuna Kim.
I think their jumping techniques are inferior to Mao's.
They need that height and distance because of the slower rotation.

Midori Ito has practiced quads but couldn't master. As seen from Ando, for attempting quads, a fast rotation type jumper could be more advantageous.

I've heard Mao was training with Lucinda Ruh around February. She's clearly interested in spins too. Very unfortunate for other skaters!

At least "ant" doesn't mention "SC's spirals". He may admit, and I expect Mao will surpass SC in this respect.

 

[bekalc]

Oh, did "ant" misunderstand?

I think Mao's jumps are very close to the best in the history.
She's the first woman to equip both 3As and 3-3Lo combos.
What she needs to prove for the last conclusion is the 3A-3T and quads.
She wont need that against other girls.

"ant" seems to like "high jumps" of Harding and Yuna Kim.
I think their jumping techniques are inferior to Mao's.
They need that hight and distance because of the slower rotation.

Midori Ito has practiced quads but couldn't master. As seen from Ando, for attempting quads, a fast rotation type jumper could be more advantageous.

Really? Because most people say that Yu-na Kim has quick rotations in the air?? And high jumps are considered good things. Mao is very talented. But she cannot do a proper triple lutz, has issues with the salchow, and the triple toe. (It was marked underrotated at worlds). So, I wouldn't say that she has better technique.

 

[rutinia]

Really? Because most people say that Yu-na Kim has quick rotations in the air?? And high jumps are considered good things. Mao is very talented. But she cannot do a proper triple lutz, has issues with the salchow, and the triple toe. (It was marked underrotated at worlds). So, I wouldn't say that she has better technique.

I don't know which "most people" say that. If Yuna Kim has so fast rotation, she's already mastered a 3A and even quads!
Sorry, I don't consider Yuna Kim as Mao's rival, at least in techniques. The gap between them is even wider than IS and MK. And after watching their latest show programs, I confirmed Yuna Kim has lost any advantages.
Until last season, most of the non jump elements are "relaxation" parts for Mao. As a result, she lost so many levels and points. But for this season, she doesn't compromise anything.
Yuna Kim has been reported to aim "the level 4 footworks". I understand that is the only technical frontier left for her. I'm not sure Mao has a mercy for her though.

 

[DaveT]

I don't know which "most people" say that. If Yuna Kim has so fast rotation, she's already mastered a 3A and even quads!
Sorry, I don't consider Yuna Kim as Mao's rival, at least in techniques. The gap between them is even wider than IS and MK. And after watching their latest show programs, I confirmed Yuna Kim has lost any advanteges.

Rutinia- I'm curious if you would consider yourself of the opinion of "most people".

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

If I am reading this correctly (? -- experts, help me out here -- ), the rules changes for next year tried to clear up the confusion about what counts as a combo, a sequence, or two separate jumps.

I don't think there is any change there, but a definition of a sequence would be nice.

The new rule on combinations saysFor sequences it says:So, what I got out of that was, the main difference between a combo and a sequence is the change to the other foot. If you try a combo but can't quite pull off the second jump, it's OK to try to right yourself with a couple of three turns, even with a hand down, as long as you maintain your skating leg.

he he. I guess if one lands an over rotated jump, one can quickly save it with a series of 3 turns before executing the combo jump. Yeah, why not? There are so many excuses in FS for faulty jumps.

For a sequence, I interpret the rule to mean any kind of "hop" that immediately shifts to the other foot is OK.

That would be ok with me too. It would be nice to see a flip or salchow as a second jump. In Ballet, they call that hop a 'stay'. MK did a few in her routines a couple of years back, but they didn't go over well.

But the CoP discourages sequences anyway, because -- far from getting extra points for a half-loop in between -- you are penaluzed by 20% of the value of both jumps taken separately. A 3F+3Lo combo is 10.5 points (same as the two jumps done separately), but a 3Lo-hop-3F sequence is only worth 8.4 points. hwell:

I wonder what the rationale was for that? Not easy to land a 3lutz, then hop to the other foot to a back inside edge, and then do a 3F. But hey, I didn't grade all these base values.

In fact, I wonder who made up the panel to assign base scores?

Joe

 

[Fredegunda]

Sorry, I don't consider Yuna Kim as Mao's rival, at least in techniques.

That being the case, what are they rivals in? "Beautiful skating"? If that's the case, then no need to obsess about Kim, since by your own analysis Asada will be able to outjump anyone.

I think there has been a misunderstanding of technique versus technical difficulty. Jump technique is how a person should ideally execute a jump. Technical difficulty is the actual level of difficulty of a jump. Since as bekalc pointed out Mao lacks several triples and has a flawed lutz, her technique is not necessarily the best. However she does push the boundaries of technical difficulty for the ladies in that she attempts difficult jumps and combinations. Whether these jumps are executed with good technique is another matter.

Mathman - thank you for your earlier post about 3/3's and COP. I was actually wondering why more ladies had not done 3t/3t combos, and now I know why.

 

[Mathman]

I wonder what the rationale was for that? Not easy to land a 3lutz, then hop to the other foot to a back inside edge, and then do a 3F. But hey, I didn't grade all these base values.

I have wondered about that, too. The scale of points definitely and deliberately discourages a skater from doing a sequence of any kind.

Just as a guess, at first I thought it was because they did not want a skater who was not good enough to do a real combo to "sneak in the back door" with an easy sequence. Like 3T+skate around a little then throw up a Salchow, and say you did a "sequence."

However, now that we have skaters on the scene who might seriously attempt something like a spectacular 3Lz+3F or 3Lo+3F sequence, that rationale goes out the window.

In fact, I wonder who made up the panel to assign base scores?

IIRC lots of people contributed to the first drafts of the CoP, but the main person heading up the project was David Dore of Canada.

Now Dore is Second Vice President of the ISU.

I believe that further revisions of the code are under the ISU Technical Committee. They are

Alexander Lakernik, Russia (chair)
Junko Hiramatsu, Japan
Fabio Bianchetti, Italy (son of Sonia B.)
Rita Zonneyen, Belgium
Matthew Savoie , U.S.A. (I assume this is the "skaters' representative")
Oleg Vasiliev, Russia