2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Skatesocs]

Good!

(and this guy because I'm sure he'll love to correct all of these)

Yes that's about right.

Anna Shcherbackova quad calls
( >=3.25 rotation is rotated, 3.24-3 rotation is UR, < 3 rotation is downgrade - we can debate that later, this is just as convention of jump rotation goes)

I am personally not sure to how to determine a skater is "exactly" at the quarter mark on video, so I tend to grant benefit of the doubt if it seems borderline. I think you can tell pre-rotated jumps are lacking rotation in real time, because they seem to "cut off" like someone stopped a video. This is my first time really combing through her calls though, I didn't really do that for most people last season, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.

It also looks like her lutz edge is shallow bordering on flat? Not always, but sometimes it does deserve a (!).

Oh, and she's nice to watch, despite the flaws. There's something charming about her.

A lof of these are barely there, though. I'm sure someone stricter will call a few more. I'd just give -2 GOE or so in those cases.

Lombardia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaEYXqSlpNg
4Lz: can't tell the edge from that, but rotation seems fine, but very close.

Skate America: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGCgJlDbZ4M
4Lz(!)+3T<: The toe loop technique is my least favorite hwell:
4Lz: seems borderline, but probably am wrong there and it deserves a <. I don't think I can tell with that video. Nor the edge. Benefit of the doubt goes to the skater.

Cup of China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ7JMMRBhY8
4Lz(!)<+3T
4Lz: This seemed rotated? And the edge seemed sufficient too!

GPF: https://youtu.be/zIceDQ9f8BI
4Lz+3T: yay!
4F<
4Lz<: leaves the ice 225 degrees pre-rotated, lands it too short to count.

Russia Nationals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoj3xTld4UQ
4Lz(!)+3T<
4F: Oh! She did rotate one! Good. Hope she does that in international competition, without doubt for the TP.
4Lz(!)<: I think I might be nitpicking with these two lutz calls, and am getting confused because of the camera angle. This seems ever so slightly less than before.

Europeans: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU0ZRooEHg4
4Lz(!)<+3T<
4F: Barely. So I'm sure someone else will call it.
4Lz<<: I think this didn't even have 3 rotations in the air can't tell the edge, so granting it, but in general is probably hard to believe that if she did an unclear edge earlier, she'll suddenly do a better edge much later.

 

[Skatesocs]

https://youtu.be/PTAeVTzWHRk - older videos it's harder to tell as the frame rate is lower but this is the best I can find. If you look at the slow motion, you see he passed the quater and then spins off the toe pick. It's not 1/2, but definitely more than 1/4.

Hmm, I wouldn't say so. He enters the jump with much less curve than most - I'd say he pre rotates very little beyond 1/4. But I'll let someone else correct me.

I also wouldn't say anyone currently pre rotates a triple axel only 1/4? No one from the top skaters.

 

[Jontor]

The most disgusting thing is that everyone(including Anna's fans) sees that she has at least a flat edge on lutz but this is not reflected in the protocols. The only time the judges gave her ! at the Cup of China and this cut her score by about 15 points. This is a huge gift from the judges(I remember how Zhenya was criticized, but she only received "5 extra points")

This is not true. At Cup of China Anna lost about 7-8 points in GOE on all her 5 Lutzes. I've checked.

3Lz+3Lo (SP) GOE received 1.57 ---> GOE at protocol 0.25
4Lz+3T 2.46 ---> -0.92 (this was also called UR so a lot of the loss was due to that)
4Lz 3.29 ---> 0.66
3Lz+3Lo 1.43 ---> 0.51
3Lz 1.67 ---> 0.34
TOTAL minus 7-8 points depending on how much you take off for the UR

 

[Jontor]

(and this guy because I'm sure he'll love to correct all of these)


Anna Shcherbackova quad calls
( >=3.25 rotation is rotated, 3.24-3 rotation is UR, < 3 rotation is downgrade - we can debate that later, this is just as convention of jump rotation goes)

I am personally not sure to how to determine a skater is "exactly" at the quarter mark on video, so I tend to grant benefit of the doubt if it seems borderline. I think you can tell pre-rotated jumps are lacking rotation in real time, because they seem to "cut off" like someone stopped a video. This is my first time really combing through her calls though, I didn't really do that for most people last season, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.

It also looks like her lutz edge is shallow bordering on flat? Not always, but sometimes it does deserve a (!).

Oh, and she's nice to watch, despite the flaws. There's something charming about her.

A lof of these are barely there, though. I'm sure someone stricter will call a few more. I'd just give -2 GOE or so in those cases.

Lombardia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaEYXqSlpNg
4Lz: can't tell the edge from that, but rotation seems fine, but very close.

Skate America: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGCgJlDbZ4M
4Lz(!)+3T<: The toe loop technique is my least favorite hwell:
4Lz: seems borderline, but probably am wrong there and it deserves a <. I don't think I can tell with that video. Nor the edge. Benefit of the doubt goes to the skater.

Cup of China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ7JMMRBhY8
4Lz(!)<+3T
4Lz: This seemed rotated? And the edge seemed sufficient too!

GPF: https://youtu.be/zIceDQ9f8BI
4Lz+3T: yay!
4F<
4Lz<: leaves the ice 225 degrees pre-rotated, lands it too short to count.

Russia Nationals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoj3xTld4UQ
4Lz(!)+3T<
4F: Oh! She did rotate one! Good. Hope she does that in international competition, without doubt for the TP.
4Lz(!)<: I think I might be nitpicking with these two lutz calls, and am getting confused because of the camera angle. This seems ever so slightly less than before.

Europeans: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU0ZRooEHg4
4Lz(!)<+3T<
4F: Barely. So I'm sure someone else will call it.
4Lz<<: I think this didn't even have 3 rotations in the air can't tell the edge, so granting it, but in general is probably hard to believe that if she did an unclear edge earlier, she'll suddenly do a better edge much later.

So, to summarize, red is when you are harsher than the judges, blue is when you agree, and green is when you are nicer! The second 4Lz at CoC got an !, and the 4F at Euros got an <.

 

[Skatesocs]

So, to summarize, you are almost agreeing with the judges. In two cases you are nicer than the judges were. The second 4Lz at CoC got an !, and the 4F at Euros got an <.

I like to be nicer I did correct myself again, Lombardia is also fine to me, but very close. (I hope you're not looking at a previous edit?)

I didn't look at the protocols when doing this, so I'm curious what Blades of Passion thinks if he thought even more deserved to be called? It's probably hard for me to grasp how to call the pre rotated jumps with a standard, but they do "look" different, and you can tell they're pre rotated.

I kept editing that, so this one is what I'd finally say:

Lombardia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaEYXqSlpNg
4Lz: can't tell the edge from that, but rotation seems fine, but very close.

Skate America: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGCgJlDbZ4M
4Lz(!)+3T<: The toe loop technique is my least favorite hwell:
4Lz: seems borderline, but probably am wrong there and it deserves a <. I don't think I can tell with that video. Nor the edge. Benefit of the doubt goes to the skater.

Cup of China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ7JMMRBhY8
4Lz(!)<+3T
4Lz: This seemed rotated? And the edge seemed sufficient too!

GPF: https://youtu.be/zIceDQ9f8BI
4Lz+3T: yay!
4F<
4Lz<: leaves the ice 225 degrees pre-rotated, lands it too short to count.

Russia Nationals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoj3xTld4UQ
4Lz(!)+3T<
4F: Oh! She did rotate one! Good. Hope she does that in international competition, without doubt for the TP.
4Lz(!)<: I think I might be nitpicking with these two lutz calls, and am getting confused because of the camera angle. This seems ever so slightly less than before.

Europeans: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU0ZRooEHg4
4Lz(!)<+3T<
4F: Barely. So I'm sure someone else will call it.
4Lz<<: I think this didn't even have 3 rotations in the air can't tell the edge, so granting it, but in general is probably hard to believe that if she did an unclear edge earlier, she'll suddenly do a better edge much later.

 

[Skatesocs]

So, to summarize, red is where you are harsher than the judges, blue is when you agree, and green is when you are nicer! The second 4Lz at CoC got an !, and the 4F at Euros got an <.

Yep, I just corrected the Lombardia one - I'd grant that to be honest. The rest you caught me when I wasn't going to change further.

 

[Jontor]

Yep, I just corrected the Lombardia one - I'd grant that to be honest. The rest you caught me when I wasn't going to change further.

Lombardia colour changed to blue - check.

The 4F at Euros is an example of how tricky it can be. The jump had a hook on it (which is suspicious for URs). But in real time, and from that angle the jump seemed ok. In the replay from a different angle you can clearly see the underrotation though.

 

[Skatesocs]

Lombardia colour changed to blue - check.

The 4F at Euros is an example of how tricky it can be. The jump had a hook on it (which is suspicious for URs). But in real time, and from that angle the jump seemed ok. In the replay from a different angle you can clearly see the underrotation though.

Yes it can be hard for sure - it's why there is more than one member on a TP. All I want them to do is establish standards for some things, and get better camera angles - viewers actually tend to have better camera angles some times, which is just sad. We can also say they need to be trained better, but it's somewhat impossible for me to see how they'd do better when some basic necessities are lacking.

 

[Jontor]

Heres the thing when it comes to prerotation:

A heavily prerotated quad is still more difficult than a triple. It should not be punished by calling it a triple. Of course, those who take off with less pre-rotation should get more GOE than those who don't, but downgrading people who do 3.5 revolutions in the air like trusova to a triple Lutz - which at best usually has 2.75 revolutions should not happen.

I totally agree.

And another thing is that I do think that the +5/-5 GOE system plus the corrections in BV that was made for the 2019 season solved a lot of the problems. It means that it isn't worth it to try a quad if you don't land it. URs are heavily penalized and if you fall you actually lose points compared to a successful triple.

 

[Skatesocs]

I say this as because on a flat edge your blade Vs the picking leg is different - the blade is moving straight rather than at an angle making it easier to rock towards the back of the foot and prerotate more. Rather than blade moving in at an angle. Of course, it's possible to prerotate with outside edge as Dmitri Aliev and Trusova demonstrate.

I agree with the rest of what you wrote - but I still heavily criticize above 180 degree PR, and also think less PR should be more GOE.

But if a 3T is called a triple, a 3Lz with same prerotation should not be called a 2Lz.

I didn't mean to imply there aren't people who can't still do outside edge pre rotated lutzes. The worst example is actually Alysa Liu for me, who goes 3/4 turn on the ice, but she keeps the outside edge - the others you mentioned do much less than that. But at the same time, we see flutzers who don't pre-rotate - like Tara Lipinski, and Sasha Cohen. Irina Slutskaya also had a shallow edge lutz, but she also didn't pre-rotate. I guess I just mean that it makes more mechanical sense to me if you say "if you pivot too far, you won't be able to keep the outside edge in general" rather than "if you flutz/have a flat edge, you are susceptible to pre-rotation". I feel like we mean the same thing though. "If you have an outside edge, you can't pre rotate"...

I agree that PR lutzes should have deductions, but not BV, because of what you say ("3T has 180 PR, so there's no reason that a 180 PR lutz should score less than that" is actually a pretty nice reason, to me). I do dislike PR jumps, but those are almost entirely qualitative and difficulty-based reasons. Like Anna's 4Lz we are discussing - I would score it 0 or -1 GOE generally, because it's rotated enough - but she does do PR. Apart from that she has a neat quality to the jump, so it's still not that she deserves -3 or something for it.

 

[Shayuki]

Personally I've always found it ridiculous how big a deal people are making out of pre-rotated quads when numerous skaters pre-rotate triples just as much, or even more, yet for whatever reason these same people are quiet about that.

 

[Skatesocs]

Personally I've always found it ridiculous how big a deal people are making out of pre-rotated quads when numerous skaters pre-rotate triples just as much, or even more, yet for whatever reason these same people are quiet about that.

I think it's because quads are worth more - so we see more about them. In the 14-18 quad, I think we did see scrutiny of Medvedeva's and Miyahara's jumps - rightly.

 

[Shayuki]

I think it's because quads are worth more - so we see more about them. In the 14-18 quad, I think we did see scrutiny of Medvedeva's and Miyahara's jumps - rightly.

Well we definitely see triples more. And it's not just skaters like Miyahara or Medvedeva, but plenty of skaters you've never heard about in that context.

Personally, I think that since quads and 3As are more challenging, it'd make sense to be more lenient with them, not stricter.

 

[Skatesocs]

Well we definitely see triples more. And it's not just skaters like Miyahara or Medvedeva, but plenty of skaters you've never heard about in that context.

Well, during the 2014-18 quad, we saw several people pop up who pre-rotated at least one jump. I think Medvedeva and Miyahara were talked about most because they were hugely visible. My least favorite thing in the world is the pre-rotated backend toe loop - it looks so ugly. But practically every visible lady did that in the 2014-18 quad, Wagner, Miyahara, Medvedeva, Osmond, Daleman. I think I can really only name Tuktamysheva who did it correctly AND rotated it consistently. We also saw bad technique on 3S IMO (Zagitova), especially done out of half loops. Before that, I believe it was Asada who was scrutinised most - even though none of her take offs were worse than conventional - because she was placed against Kim - despite there being much worse jumpers out there than her.

Personally, I think that since quads and 3As are more challenging, it'd make sense to be more lenient with them, not stricter.

Hm, but I don't see why. Yes they are harder, but they also get more scores. And if they're hit with URs they still get pretty huge scores. I was talking only about personal/fan scrutiny though. The TP shouldn't partially scrutinize jumps - the same standards to all jumps should be applied.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Hmm, I wouldn't say so. He enters the jump with much less curve than most - I'd say he pre rotates very little beyond 1/4. But I'll let someone else correct me.

I also wouldn't say anyone currently pre rotates a triple axel only 1/4? No one from the top skaters.

I'd say Yagudin does exactly between 1/4 and 1/2 given what I've seen previously.
The thing is I'm not arguing what he does is wrong. I'm saying that even the best 3As often go past 1/4.

I'd say Micheal Berezina, Mikhail Kolyada always stick to 1/4 ish and then Hanyu often sticks to 1/4. Pretty much everybody else goes past 1/4.

I guess what Yagudin did has no consequence whatever to current field of men - doing up to half on axel seems to be current trend.

 

[Skatesocs]

I'd say Yagudin does exactly between 1/4 and 1/2 given what I've seen previously.
The thing is I'm not arguing what he does is wrong. I'm saying that even the best 3As often go past 1/4.

No I got that. I just don't know how you're measuring, that's all.
Of the men, I'd actually say Yan has the least pre rotation. Hanyu and Kolyada do very well, but Yan is the current standard. But I guess he's not a top man.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

No I got that. I just don't know how you're measuring, that's all.
Of the men, I'd actually say Yan has the least pre rotation. Hanyu and Kolyada do very well, but Yan is the current standard. But I guess he's not a top man.

I'm measuring with eyes (kind of), by judging roughly the direction where takeoff is initiated then how much they turn since the initiation. Many skaters do 1/4 on the blade and then 1/4 on the toe (or any measurements) rather than just prerotation on toe or blade.

We could argue Yan isn't at the top, but neither is Kolyada right now (though we will see at Russian testing what he will pull through)

I'd say Han Yan and Micheal Brezina both have very little PR compared to every other skater.

If we look back a bit then Evgeni Plushenko doesn't PR the 3A very much at all (ironic that he does on flip and lutz but not axel)

 

[Arbitrary]

Sophia Samodelkina will not participate in Moscow Championship for Juniors. As explained she won the Test Skates and not obliged to attend the tournament.

 

[Resa]

Will Kostornaya be really competing for Khrustalny this season? I heard that sports.ru wrote about it

 

[Blades of Passion]

Personally I've always found it ridiculous how big a deal people are making out of pre-rotated quads when numerous skaters pre-rotate triples just as much, or even more, yet for whatever reason these same people are quiet about that.

This sounds like a straw-man, what "people" are doing this? Pre-rotated triples have been criticized for over a decade. Ever since 2006/2007 it's been a topic that has increasingly been more scrutinized and more widely known.

If people are more upset about pre-rotated Quads it's because:

1.) They are worth far more points in comparison to Triples, so the difference in how they are called impacts the scores to a greater degree

2.) People have been trying to do Quads for decades, so a new generation of skaters getting credit for them because of finding a way to cheat the rotation is not an especially good thing for the sport

3.) Many of these quads are ugly (or not especially good looking) and receive too many points, for both the attempt itself and in terms of how it impacts choreography. How much value should a barely rotated 4Lutz with 3.25 rotations in the air actually receive in comparison to a glorious, perfectly rotated 3Lutz that has 3.0 rotations completely in the air, showing the quality of ballon and clear revolutions and edges?