1/4 rotation is fine, 1/2 is not according to the rules. I gave you the official sources. I did not invent these rules. If you don't like it how it is, that's your thing. You can complaing to the ISU then. Don't shoot the messenger.
2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating
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1/4 rotation is fine, 1/2 is not according to the rules. I gave you the official sources. I did not invent these rules. If you don't like it how it is, that's your thing. You can complaing to the ISU then. Don't shoot the messenger.
This is where I took the definitions from: https://isu.org/figure-skating/rule.../24781-tphb-single-skating-2020-21-final/file
Well, as I said, Anna is clearly not your favourite. And that's fine. But if you don't get why she is successul, you have to respect that others might like her. And the judges are not stupid. They judge Anna the best as they can. And comparing Anna and Alëna you can clearly see this past season that judges went with Alëna all the way, with much better GOE's and PCS. However, Alëna has much weaker technical content, so Anna managed to beat her at RusNats, But that is just the reality of the sport. So if you have problems with Anna's success, you should complain to the ISU that you think the technical content is much too valuable vs PCS. Not complain about Anna as you do all the time. She is just playing the game as everybody does in this sport.
Yeah, I've probably read that more times than you have.
It's okay. I can see that you aren't here for discussion.
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The first Triple Axel ever landed had a backwards takeoff by the time the jump gets off the ice - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2unFSmlNjI
1/2 turn by the time the toepick leaves the ice is standard for any jump at this point. Ideally it should be less for Axel/Lutz/Flip, but it's probably too much to ask to try and standardize those jumps in a more punishing way.
Btw, how much would you say that Anna Shcherbackova rotates a 4Lz? I think she usually does 225 degrees on the ice - but on her best attempts she lands it well enough and ends up having 3.3 or so rotations, to my eyes.
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Yes that's about right. Her 4Lz got tighter last season though. In the 2018-2019 season she was landing completely backwards after the big pre-rotation, but last season she was landing shorter most of the time. I felt several of her attempts should have been called < and weren't. Usually the second 4Lutz of her program always looked suspect.
Yes it's true it got worse. But that's the way with that technique unfortunately 
hwell: I used to think she did better than Trusova on the element - in total she's probably landed better rotated ones- but that second 4Lz is unfortunate.
hwell: I used to think she did better than Trusova on the element - in total she's probably landed better rotated ones- but that second 4Lz is unfortunate.Yes it's true it got worse. But that's the way with that technique unfortunately
Well, that second 4Lz was deemed UR at GPF and she fell on in at Europeans. I don't think it was UR at SA, CoC or RusNats. Not to my eyes. But the one at Lombardia was borderline.
I'll look!
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It is not imy opinion that is in play here. It is the "opinion" of ISU judges, of ISU rules and their conventional interpretations, and (especially) of ISU tech callers. You can compare for yourself the number of rotations in the air that skaters actually do, versus the calls by ISU technical panels, if you want an answer to the question, "How many rotations in the air are required for an acceptable triple Lutz."
What is not very useful is to say in high-handed dudgeon, "What the ISU says is an acceptable triple Lutz is wrong and evil. What I define as an acceptable triple Lutz is wrapped in virtue."
(Granted, some skaters' jumps are more breathtaking than others, such as Rika Kihira's triple Axel.
)It is not imy opinion that is in play here. It is the "opinion" of ISU judges, of ISU rules and their conventional interpretations, and (especially) of ISU tech callers. You can compare for yourself the number of rotations in the air that skaters actually do, versus the calls by ISU technical panels, if you want an answer to the question, "How many rotations in the air are required for an acceptable triple Lutz."
What is not very useful is to say in high-handed dudgeon, "What the ISU says is an acceptable triple Lutz is wrong and evil. What I define as an acceptable triple Lutz is wrapped in virtue."
(Granted, some skaters' jumps are more breathtaking than others, such as Rika Kihira's triple Axel.
I read an interview with old favourite Olga Markova a few months ago (or was it Maria Butyrskaya? can't remember) that being a technical judge is much more to it than people think. There are guidelines about angels and other stuff that makes it really hard. Which probably explains the fact that some tech judges are so different from others - they have simply interpreted the guidelines differently. I would really like to see that tech judge guidelines manual. It's probably just more confusing.
Outside of a fall, until there is technology that can be put on a skater's boot to measure angle of the edge and degree of pre-rotation or under-rotation (though under is usually not something difficult to spot) there's always going to be a degree of interpretation to judging jumps. As of right now I think the best fans can hope for is consistency from the same judging panel at a competition for all skaters where if 2 skaters have the same look of an incorrect edge based on the judging panels allowed views that both skaters get marked for it.
There have been interviews throughout the years about people referencing that jumps a skater struggles with getting "hidden in the corner"; probably done to make sure that it's in a poor angle for judges to notice problems with the jump.
I hope we see, if the season goes on, a rise in Anna's PCS marks. She showed a lot of improvement by the end of the season at Euros but I don't think it was properly reflected in the scores. Alena is better and deserved to win in those categories but I do think Anna displayed more then just a technical exercise. I hope the judges don't remain stubborn and continue to pigeonhole her as a mainly technical skater with just average PCS abilities.
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Yes it's true it got worse. But that's the way with that technique unfortunately
There are a couple things Trusova does much stronger than Sherbakova in the Lutz related to the general mechanics:
Trusova does a deep outside edge, whereas Sherbakova has a flat edge (sometimes flat inside, sometimes flat outside).
This for me bothers me more than the extra prerotation - and probably actually causes the extra prerotation.
From a skaters perspective, I used to have a horrible Flutz. When I did this I could gain a lot more prerotation as my body weight was dropping more on my right foot so I could turn more before the takeoff. Once I fixed my edge, the prerotation was reduced so at worst I can say I do a half and at best I can take off before the quarter mark.
(Another thing is Sherbakova was getting less and less rotation on the lutz throughout the season, but wasn't getting called. To note, I think she is very underrated artistically - but that is another topic).
This next part is not directed at you in particular, but generally everybody commenting on the topic of prerotation.
Heres the thing when it comes to prerotation:
A heavily prerotated quad is still more difficult than a triple. It should not be punished by calling it a triple. Of course, those who take off with less pre-rotation should get more GOE than those who don't, but downgrading people who do 3.5 revolutions in the air like trusova to a triple Lutz - which at best usually has 2.75 revolutions should not happen.
Lutz and Flip are of course more difficult when you don't prerotate, but even when you do they are typically more difficult than at least toeloop and salchow (depending on where your strength lies) as you have very open hips on the toeloop allowing you to generate rotational velocity easier - I experience this on practice, as even when I landed my 3T nicely my 3Lz (with prerotation) was still quite underrotated and sketchy. With Salchow, the momentum from the throwing leg is a big help - and those who use throwing leg nicely on loop with good grouperation will also have this advantage.
I also know people who do not pre-rotate on Lutz who find it much easier than toe - This is due to naturally insanely fast twitch and getting into rotation very quickly - which is harder to do with pre-rotated jumps. Pre-rotation gets the power, but it also delays getting into rotation position which people tend to ignore.
Last thing to note, is that when I learnt doubles I didn't ever hear the term "prerotation used." I just learnt doubles by landing doubles - I didn't go to vidoes of jumps and watch them in 0.25 speed, I had no clue this was even a thing. I learnt a lot about prerotation 2-3years after - by the time the technique was ingrained in my body. My coach explained that it was good to prerotate a reasonable amount - as this allowed you to put more power in jumps. At this point I didn't prerotate on axel, so for 2A my coach had to teach me specific prerotation exercises to get as much out of it as possible.
Now, onto axel:
1/4 is the best of the best. Hanyu and Kolyada tend to do 1/4 within their mechanism.
Lets turn to ladies 3A - Alena Kostornia also does 1/4. I believe Rika does but haven't checked this out.
Without 1/4 prerotation 2A is extremely difficult. 1A is very doable. Without perfect rotation 2A is not. I've only seen one skater EVER land 2A without any prerotation or perfect rotation - and it was honestly the most insane thing I ever saw in skating. This skater went at top speed - and I'm talking close to Keegan messing speed and just threw all his power into the 2A - He just completed the jump in time and he had height enough for 3A and length enough for it too.
The reason for this is not that it gives you 1/4 less rotation to do, but it initiates the rotation on the takeoff. Otherwise, it takes ages to reach maximum rotation velocity, and you have to move at insane speeds to compensate for this. If you initiate the rotation on the takeoff, you get into the jump quicker and your maximum speed is much faster, and you reach it much quicker.
I'd say with just the 1/4 prerotation done correctly, he'd have been hitting 3 revolutions on the jump for sure. With half he probably would have been pushing triple axel.
I'm fine with people complaining about prerotation on axel, but if you do then complain about each skater equally - including men. Also a 3A with 1/2 prerotation is still much harder than a 2A with 1/4 prerotation - punish the jump with less GOE if anything but downgrading it to a double axel is a stupid system.
Have you ever heard anybody say "Alexei Yagudin had the best triple axel" - well he actually nearly did 1/2 prerotation on the jump. Not quite 1/2, but definitely more than 1/4. Have you ever heard anybody say "Alexei Yagudin's triple axel was easier than a double axel" or "Alexei Yagudin's triple axel should have been considered a double axel" - This statement sounds ridiculous, just saying it would raise eyebrows.
I do not know what you mean by "flat edge causes pre rotation". I think the second paragraph is what it is: that because people are taught pre-rotated technique on a Lutz, they are unable to hold an outside edge, and therefore move onto a flat, because otherwise they'd do battle with physics in messy way.
I don't even think they are thinking about mechanics. The comments are based specifically on one sentence the ISU has said about "cheated take offs". It's applied to toe axels. If that hadn't been present, none of these people would be whinging.
For me, beyond that, a jump is defined by rotation in the air (and the trajectory). If it has sufficient rotation, that's fine.
Of course no one should say that Yagudin had a worse 3A than 2A: but I never got why you think he pre rotates half turn on it
The most disgusting thing is that everyone(including Anna's fans) sees that she has at least a flat edge on lutz but this is not reflected in the protocols. The only time the judges gave her ! at the Cup of China and this cut her score by about 15 points. This is a huge gift from the judges(I remember how Zhenya was criticized, but she only received "5 extra points")
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I say this as because on a flat edge your blade Vs the picking leg is different - the blade is moving straight rather than at an angle making it easier to rock towards the back of the foot and prerotate more. Rather than blade moving in at an angle. Of course, it's possible to prerotate with outside edge as Dmitri Aliev and Trusova demonstrate.
I agree with the rest of what you wrote - but I still heavily criticize above 180 degree PR, and also think less PR should be more GOE.
But if a 3T is called a triple, a 3Lz with same prerotation should not be called a 2Lz.
Of course no one should say that Yagudin had a worse 3A than 2A: but I never got why you think he pre rotates half turn on it
https://youtu.be/PTAeVTzWHRk - older videos it's harder to tell as the frame rate is lower but this is the best I can find. If you look at the slow motion, you see he passed the quater and then spins off the toe pick. It's not 1/2, but definitely more than 1/4.
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