2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[flanker]

Let's look at Veronika Zhillina though. She was fully coached by Sergei Rozanov, and she had the best technique out of all the Tutberetzi pupils (of course historically Polina but out of current skaters). She was taught by him perfect triples, and then a 4T, 4S and 3A.

Rather that's the fable some people try to turn into a dogma. There's literally zero solid evidence that could allow you to claim whether Rozanov trained with Veronika more than let's say with Sofia (there is plenty of footage of Sofia together with Rozanov BTW, while we know how much Veronika was taught by her mother as was mentioned shortly before) or whether she was "fully" trained by him and not by the other members of the team as well, while Sofia now wasn't fully trained by him, though just recently others tried to claim here that Rozanov "fully" trained everybody apart the seniors, that's just one of the contradictions I've mentioned before. Or

This "only Rozanov is teaching proper technique" BS (used of course just when it matches the narrative) is only another symptom of bias, just girls who left are suddenly the best or will be soon the best with the best technique (and you no longer hear e.g. that Sasha is destroying figure skating or like when there was a first video of her landing 3A there was a claim "I will no longer watch figure skating"). This is like for the tenth time when the narrative about certain skaters completeley changed and the true thing behind is what people want to see (based on who is coaching who), so that can be hardly taken seriously.

 

[Alex65]

Rather that's the fable some people try to turn into a dogma. There's literally zero solid evidence that could allow you to claim whether Rozanov trained with Veronika more than let's say with Sofia (there is plenty of footage of Sofia together with Rozanov BTW, while we know how much Veronika was taught by her mother as was mentioned shortly before) or whether she was "fully" trained by him and not by the other members of the team as well, while Sofia now wasn't fully trained by him, though just recently others tried to claim here that Rozanov "fully" trained everybody apart the seniors, that's just one of the contradictions I've mentioned before. Or

This "only Rozanov is teaching proper technique" BS (used of course just when it matches the narrative) is only another symptom of bias, just girls who left are suddenly the best or will be soon the best with the best technique (and you no longer hear e.g. that Sasha is destroying figure skating or like when there was a first video of her landing 3A there was a claim "I will no longer watch figure skating"). This is like for the tenth time when the narrative about certain skaters completeley changed and the true thing behind is what people want to see (based on who is coaching who), so that can be hardly taken seriously.

You said everything right. I will only add that it all works both ways. By making fun of him, you yourself become funny.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

The problem is that when we start acting like “there are 10000 possible techniques”, there’s no such thing as prerrotation and underrotation, lutz edge is not important, judging becomes unfair and figure skating starts to become like soccer - messy, unfair and ugly.

The way things are going, competitions will become like “go and jump anything that looks like 3 revolutions, judges don’t know how to count anyway, the name of the jump is not important, jump the same way for every jump we put in the program (judges don’t know the difference between jumps), if it’s more than 2 revolutions then it’s 3, if it’s more than 3 revolutions than it’s 4”. The public doesn’t understand technique, go and do whatever you feel like doing, as long as it’s entertaining, or be a jump machine that judges and the public will forgive your lack of interpretation.

I feel like for some people here rules are not important.

Maybe for these people, there should be a new sport - “free skating”. Do whatever you want to on the ice, and the judges will judge according to their personal preference.

Agree. Plus, I watched Akatieva in 0.25 speed and even her 2T was excessively pre-rotated. Now why should I admire a skater with a such technique? The same goes with Shcherbakova, Trusova, Valieva. I am not mentioning Dariya and Maya since they are not that successful so far.
Someone here said that maybe is impossible for the ladies to jump quads which are not pre-rotated. Wrong. Yesterday Veronika jumped 4T with a minimal pre-rotation.

 

[sclloyd]

Rather that's the fable some people try to turn into a dogma. There's literally zero solid evidence that could allow you to claim whether Rozanov trained with Veronika more than let's say with Sofia (there is plenty of footage of Sofia together with Rozanov BTW, while we know how much Veronika was taught by her mother as was mentioned shortly before) or whether she was "fully" trained by him and not by the other members of the team as well, while Sofia now wasn't fully trained by him, though just recently others tried to claim here that Rozanov "fully" trained everybody apart the seniors, that's just one of the contradictions I've mentioned before. Or

This "only Rozanov is teaching proper technique" BS (used of course just when it matches the narrative) is only another symptom of bias, just girls who left are suddenly the best or will be soon the best with the best technique (and you no longer hear e.g. that Sasha is destroying figure skating or like when there was a first video of her landing 3A there was a claim "I will no longer watch figure skating"). This is like for the tenth time when the narrative about certain skaters completeley changed and the true thing behind is what people want to see (based on who is coaching who), so that can be hardly taken seriously.

I was never one to say “Sasha is ruining figure skating” her jumps have only served to make it more interesting. Of course we mustn’t say that just because someone can rotate four times that makes their quads good or exceptional, so there is some need to criticize coaching here. The effects of Rozanov vs Duakov will likely take a few more years, if not more to show themselves, but the trend that sticks out to me so far is that Romanov is the better technician, and that TT lost a lot losing him. There is of course merit to TT, they have revived figure skating, made their own dynasty, molded some of the most exceptional skaters we’ve seen but girls like Aliona came to her after the foundational formation so we must ask if she is the kind of person one sends their four year old to, or if she is rather the one you send your 12 year olds to so they can be polished up and packaged properly for a few years.

It is interesting to me the polarizing nature if this thread, which I’ve previously not participated much in. Say one thing against the narrative of either camp and you are a traitor. It’s good to discuss flaws and strengths of all parties involved, and to remember that no one is perfect and calling out weaknesses does not make the skater or coach lesser for it.

 

[flanker]

You said everything right. I will only add that it all works both ways. By making fun of him, you yourself become funny.

Rather making fun of you and other people obsessed by his alleged perfection and complete malevolence of his former team mates, because such "black-and-whiteness" is funny. As for Rozanov himself, maybe there were compliments before towards him as a coach, though definitely not as frequent as compliments to his hotness (I mean from those three people who knew him that time, I myself explained here about three times who he even is). He became the edge genius only in the moment he left TT, not before. Before we could read for instance how Kamila is loosing edges (when she was a novice and definitely coached also by Rozanov) and other usual stuff people write about Eteri's team. This double standard reminds me christian writer Lactantius who on one hand mindlessly criticized construction activities of the emperor Diocletian but on the other one praised Constantine the Great for the same when he transfered his residence to Constantinople, which was surrounded by the lagerst construction activities of that time. Of course the problem wasn't the construction activity but that Diocletian was an evil pagan while "the Great" accepted christianity. And that's the same partiality that exists here, incl. the one you personally show.

I was never one to say “Sasha is ruining figure skating” her jumps have only served to make it more interesting. Of course we mustn’t say that just because someone can rotate four times that makes their quads good or exceptional, so there is some need to criticize coaching here. The effects of Rozanov vs Duakov will likely take a few more years, if not more to show themselves, but the trend that sticks out to me so far is that Romanov is the better technician, and that TT lost a lot losing him. There is of course merit to TT, they have revived figure skating, made their own dynasty, molded some of the most exceptional skaters we’ve seen but girls like Aliona came to her after the foundational formation so we must ask if she is the kind of person one sends their four year old to, or if she is rather the one you send your 12 year olds to so they can be polished up and packaged properly for a few years.

It is interesting to me the polarizing nature if this thread, which I’ve previously not participated much in. Say one thing against the narrative of either camp and you are a traitor. It’s good to discuss flaws and strengths of all parties involved, and to remember that no one is perfect and calling out weaknesses does not make the skater or coach lesser for it.

See above, the narrative it's Rozanov who is responsible for the good technique and the others responsible for the bad one is unfounded from the very beginning, created only by cherrypicking the fragments that suit particular narratives. Which doesn't mean I say he is a bad coach, I've never said anything like that, that's just for the frequent (in fact the only one) counter I've met. It's just that it's not like you imagine it those skaters I like their technique were surely coached exclusively by Rozanov and the others I don't like (and "I'm a fan but" is an invalid argument as was explained many times before) weren't. As for Aliona, she was trained by the whole team and once again it can be hardly said the correction of her Lutz edge (which happened since she joined TT) can be hardly credited exclusively to Rozanov just like you can't seriously claim that "Sofia Akatieva prerotatres/has bad edges" or whatever "because Rozanov didn't work with her" is wrong, becuse he worked with her as well.

P. S. Just like I didn't say Rozanov is a bad coach I also didn't blame anyone of betrayal

 

[lopsilceci]

The effects of Rozanov vs Duakov will likely take a few more years, if not more to show themselves, but the trend that sticks out to me so far is that Romanov is the better technician, and that TT lost a lot losing him. There is of course merit to TT, they have revived figure skating, made their own dynasty, molded some of the most exceptional skaters we’ve seen but girls like Aliona came to her after the foundational formation so we must ask if she is the kind of person one sends their four year old to, or if she is rather the one you send your 12 year olds to so they can be polished up and packaged properly for a few years.

It is interesting to me the polarizing nature if this thread, which I’ve previously not participated much in. Say one thing against the narrative of either camp and you are a traitor. It’s good to discuss flaws and strengths of all parties involved, and to remember that no one is perfect and calling out weaknesses does not make the skater or coach lesser for it.

The problem with the "Rozanov is the best coach TT had" argument is that there's 0 evidence for it.

Yes, he was there for a few years and he worked mainly with novices and less with juniors and seniors but Dudakov has always been known as the main jumps specialist in TT, while Rozanov seems to have been more of an assistant in the jumps aspect (helping with the fishing pole or with the basic jumps of younger skaters)
Heck, a lot of the people that now think of him as some kind of coaching prodigy didn't even know he existed before he left TT. Most of us only knew him as "the hot coach".

In any case, from what we do know about how TT works is that Eteri, Daniil and Dudakov work the most with seniors and juniors, so statements like "x skater got her good technique exclusively from Rozanov" don't even make sense, when no one actually worked exclusively with Rozanov since they started skating up until now.

ETA: It's also annoying to see the cherry picking with statements like: "Rozanov is responsible for x skater with "good" technique who convenienly also left TT but not y skater of the same age group with "bad" technique who stayed with TT.

 

[kmw227]

The problem with the "Rozanov is the best coach TT had" is that there's 0 evidence for it.

Yes, he was there for a few years and he worked mainly with novices and less with juniors and seniors but Dudakov has always been known as the main jumps specialist in TT, while Rozanov seems to have been more of an assistant in the jumps aspect (helping with the fishing pole or with the basic jumps of younger skaters)
Heck, a lot of the people that now think of him as some kind of coaching prodigy didn't even know he existed before he left TT. Most of us only knew him as "the hot coach".

In any case, from what we do know about how TT works is is that Eteri, Daniil and Dudakov work the most with seniors and juniors, so statements like "x skater got her good technique exclusively from Rozanov" don't even make sense, when no one actually worked exclusively with Rozanov since they started skating up until now.

ETA: It's also annoying to see the cherry picking with statements like: "Rozanov is responsible for x skater with "good" technique who convenienly also left TT but not y skater of the same age group with "bad" technique who stayed with TT.

Agree with all of this. I don't think Rozanov is a bad coach by any means, but personally, I just don't think he has enough experience with coaching high-level skaters for him to be deemed a "coaching prodigy" or anything along those lines. That being said, he's now coaching two of the best skaters in the world and he has a huge opportunity to prove himself as a coach. Hopefully he'll rise to the occasion

 

[Jontor]

The problem with the "Rozanov is the best coach TT had" is that there's 0 evidence for it.

Yes, he was there for a few years and he worked mainly with novices and less with juniors and seniors but Dudakov has always been known as the main jumps specialist in TT, while Rozanov seems to have been more of an assistant in the jumps aspect (helping with the fishing pole or with the basic jumps of younger skaters)
Heck, a lot of the people that now think of him as some kind of coaching prodigy didn't even know he existed before he left TT. Most of us only knew him as "the hot coach".

In any case, from what we do know about how TT works is is that Eteri, Daniil and Dudakov work the most with seniors and juniors, so statements like "x skater got her good technique exclusively from Rozanov" don't even make sense, when no one actually worked exclusively with Rozanov since they started skating up until now.

ETA: It's also annoying to see the cherry picking with statements like: "Rozanov is responsible for x skater with "good" technique who convenienly also left TT but not y skater of the same age group with "bad" technique who stayed with TT.

Totally agree.

Sometimes I get so tired of all the gossip around here. It's like TSL, who seem to like the gossip more than the actual skating.

This Rozanov speculations are nothing but gossip. It is just annoying.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

https://i.ibb.co/vk0v64Y/cs-Su0-Su-Yf-Jo.jpg

 

[Scott512]

Handsome fairy tale prince had to contend with Wicked Witch of Russia

I guess he couldn't take anymore. Plus he hopefully got paid going to Plushies bringing three phenomenal talents with him.
if young Sergei was so great the past couple years at TT why didn't he improve the technique you always complain about? He worked with all these kids. Gotcha![/QUOTE]

I think we should note that there are multiple technicians. Rozanov worked closely With Aliona the last few seasons and that work almost completely corrected her lutz/flip edge. Now we can she has edge problems only when nervous or tired but comparing the lutz from the junior season to the senior season, there is notable improvement. We also know that Rozanov helped Sasha with her quads, and worked closely with her on her jumps at TT and she has some really solid technique as well.

On the other hand, when Shcherbakova first switched to Eteri, she was working with Dudakov and since she’s not mentioned Rozanov as far as I’m aware, she worked with him less.

Idk all the specifics but we do know at the very minimum that Rozanov is responsible for Sasha’s quads but not Anna’s and he’s responsible for Aliona’s technique fixes from last season.[/QUOTE]
Very true.

Elizaveta Berestovskaya, CSKA student, Sergei Davydov's team.

Thank you. Nice to see another coach besides EG have a really good Junior. Obviously Veronika was EG made.

At least here the critic is mainly on the skating. I did a walk earlier in some Russian forums and surprisingly saw the passion some were criticizing the dresses of 12-year-old kids. I thought I fell in a VIP forum with Versace, Donna Karen, Piere Gardin... It felt good in a way.

I'm not comfortable with criticizing their skating to such detail some here do at 12 years old or certainly not their costumes as you pointed out.

Remember because of covid 19 these kids did not skate for 3 or 4 months and that was a real issue. I'm actually surprised they were in as good form as we saw. It just shows how super talented and disciplined they are. I kind of expect the same for the seniors not at their very best but good. But they're so talented how could we expect anything last to be honest?

Seeing Killla Kamila at senior test skates will be interesting to say the least. Will she be on or close to the level of Aliona Sasha and Anna? I think she will be close to their level. I bet flanker thinks the same way.

 

[TallyT]

Agree with all of this. I don't think Rozanov is a bad coach by any means, but personally, I just don't think he has enough experience with coaching high-level skaters for him to be deemed a "coaching prodigy" or anything along those lines. That being said, he's now coaching two of the best skaters in the world and he has a huge opportunity to prove himself as a coach. Hopefully he'll rise to the occasion

Shades of one Mister Orser in 2006? Or not. We just don't know, and the not knowing is driving people to distraction.

 

[fabienne1996]

This is really interesting to read, someone openend a new thread for this. Seems like liza took the reigns a bit more this time, not letting mishin change so much in the choreography, . It will be interesting to see her skate .
https://www.goldenskate.com/2020/09/empress-tuktamysheva-changes-it-up-for-2020-21/
Gesendet von meinem SM-T813 mit Tapatalk

 

[dunffvanstorn]

Oh my... I remember last year I read criticism towards costumes of novices as well.
I mean, I might not know how it works, but I feel like it’s okay not to have the best costume when you’re 11-12 and compete only domestically. Surely costume designers have different pricing when it comes to costumes, because they will differ in complexity. And novices in national team also won’t get as much funding as seniors.
So it would only make sense that they try to stay within their budgets.

I think when criticism is being made towards things that could only improve with more expensive costumes, it’s pretty unfair.

However, some of these novices are having costumes made by Olga Ryabenko, with the same amount of stones and crystals the seniors have.

Sofia Akatieva’s SP dress is a mess, however, the Mulan one is BEAUTIFUL. My goodness, how much I loved it. And it was so full of stones, I’m certain it costed the same as a senior dress.

For example, if we check Junior competitions from 4 years or more ago, costumes were way simpler, with less stones and crystals. From 2017 on, Juniors are having more elaborate dresses.

So, when the criticism is related to the “price” of the dress, to how simple it was, I think it’s really unfair. However, when the criticism is made to a expensive dress, made by a famous designer, and a dress that just didn’t work for the program, it’s valid criticism in my opinion.

I tend to believe it’s not how expensive the dress is, or how sparkly it is that matters, because there are simple and beautiful dresses, it’s all a matter of good taste, good color and appropriate style of dress to the program.

 

[dunffvanstorn]

I’m a fan of Hot Sergei, but even I have to admit I don’t know how much he’s worked with each of these girls.

Zhilina seems like is a consequence of good technique from her mother + good quad technique taught by Rozanov.

Aliona is not completely clear, because Rozanov worked with her even before she went to Eteri (when she used to flutz).

Sasha seems to have gotten work from both him and Dudakov.

Anna learned terrible technique outside Eteri’s rink, she didn’t even have her triples. Maybe, Eteri just perpetuated her poor technique.

Kamila learned her quads with Rozanov, but I don’t know who worked with her before. Her quad toe is great, but her lutz is getting worse and her combos are hard to watch because of the change of edge.

Evgenia learned her triples with Eteri and Dudakov... so did Alina. None of them have good technique.

Yulia wasn’t the best in terms of technique either, but I don’t know who taught her jumps.

Sofia Akatieva... according to what I know, she worked a lot with Rozanov, but I don’t know who taught her triples.

I must say that Pluschenko, having learned from a great technician like Mishin, is probably a good technical coach. That interview in which he talked about Sasha’s arm position and how long it took her to wrap her arms really caught my attention.

On a side note - a girl who’s on my radar is Titova - I see so much potential in her, and she’s only 10.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Kamila learned her quads with Rozanov, but I don’t know who worked with her before. Her quad toe is great, but her lutz is getting worse and her combos are hard to watch because of the change of edge.

Hi I believe Kamila was taught technique for triples before she went to team Tutberetzi, then learnt quad toe with Dudakov and Rozanov together.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Rather that's the fable some people try to turn into a dogma. There's literally zero solid evidence that could allow you to claim whether Rozanov trained with Veronika more than let's say with Sofia (there is plenty of footage of Sofia together with Rozanov BTW, while we know how much Veronika was taught by her mother as was mentioned shortly before) or whether she was "fully" trained by him and not by the other members of the team as well, while Sofia now wasn't fully trained by him, though just recently others tried to claim here that Rozanov "fully" trained everybody apart the seniors, that's just one of the contradictions I've mentioned before. Or

This "only Rozanov is teaching proper technique" BS (used of course just when it matches the narrative) is only another symptom of bias, just girls who left are suddenly the best or will be soon the best with the best technique (and you no longer hear e.g. that Sasha is destroying figure skating or like when there was a first video of her landing 3A there was a claim "I will no longer watch figure skating"). This is like for the tenth time when the narrative about certain skaters completeley changed and the true thing behind is what people want to see (based on who is coaching who), so that can be hardly taken seriously.

I have always been a fan of Sasha Trusova and Alena Kostornia. In fact, Ive been a semi fan of sherbakova (like her skating not her jumps).

I think Rozanov and Dudakov know how to teach good technique, but they both understand it makes jumping quads harder so only teach it when skater/parent insists or skater already has technique within their body.

Trusova and Kostornia both had their triple technique before going to team Tutberetzi for better or for worse, and have improved some things like Lutz edges etc (no clue what Trusovas jumps were like before but know she was taught by Volkov who's now another Plushenko angel coach).

Trusova needed change, and Plushenko was the person willing to take the risk to bring her on - and Kostornia thought that if she is leaving it would be better to go where Trusova and Rozanov are rather than find new coaches and friends - that should tell you a lot about Kostornias respect for Rozanov.

 

[Skatesocs]

When are the senior test skates, again?

 

[lopsilceci]

When are the senior test skates, again?

Starts next saturday (12th-13th)

 

[halulupu]

Lets summerize: team tuberize is on a downward spiral. Their juniors are their weakest crop in years and beaten by other coaches. They lost two stars. Alina now basically retired (quote tat). No luck with boys.
But eteri will change things around as always

 

[Skatesocs]

Starts next saturday (12th-13th)

Thanks