2020-21 US Women's Figure Skating

[hulksmash1337]

Teaching correct technique doesn't require a skater to be a certain age.

Yes it does, because technique = muscle memory => long time to become refined. Have you seen any skaters who start at 25 year old who are able to attempt quadruples? No, because at that age their body is already past its prime, and they are not capable of it anymore. The fact that Alysa Liu has the correct techniques now, only means that she has more time than any of her competitors to refine her techniques, it is not a detriment, and never will be.

 

[Amei]

Teaching correct technique doesn't require a skater to be a certain age. Alysa could have easily learned it the correct way at the age she started. It's from who and how she learned it that is part of her current problems (beyond the normal body changes and pressure) not when she learned it.

If its true, as some people have suggested, that her father is VERY involved and driven (to put it kindly) at making Alysa a champion then chances are the reason for her suspect technique is more due to a rush for quick fast success and pressure on her early coaches to get it done rather then learning too early. Look at Liza, she was practicing all the difficult triples at 12 and competed at her first Russian nationals at 11 but didn't attempt a 3A in competition until she was like 18. Alysa's team could have easily done similar and paced themselves, they didn't have to rush her to senior nationals and hype her up as fast as they did.

But when all is said and done it's definitely not over and it's too early to proclaim her a victim of not coping with growing up. She's still young enough to fix it and make it work. The question is will she get it back fast enough for 2022 as everyone on her team seems to be aiming for. If it doesn't happen then oh well but if they do it right then there is always 2026. It won't be the end of the world

They knew that she was going to be age-eligible for the Olympics 2022 and that the Russian ladies have excelled at the 15 year olds coming in and dominating, and the Russians were doing quads and triple axels - so I can certainly understand why they rushed her into learning those elements and getting senior National experience so that she would be somewhat ready for her first international senior season which coincides with the Olympics. To play the long game of "oh well she can go to 2026" is a dangerous move, she'll be 19 who knows if she'll still want to skate at that age, what kind of injuries she'll have etc., look at the recently retired Polina Edmunds.

 

[withwings]

Bradie Tennell isn't so great? Are you kidding me? When was the last time you saw a skater with such an ability and movement in their jumps? Bradie puts the game on another level, and we will be blessed if we ever see a skater with her skill and passion for the sport again. Alysa Liu breaks records. Nathan Chen breaks records. Bradie Tennell breaks the rules. You can keep your statistics. I prefer the magic. And her haircut.

 

[macy]

Yes it does, because technique = muscle memory => long time to become refined. Have you seen any skaters who start at 25 year old who are able to attempt quadruples? No, because at that age their body is already past its prime, and they are not capable of it anymore. The fact that Alysa Liu has the correct techniques now, only means that she has more time than any of her competitors to refine her techniques, it is not a detriment, and never will be.

huh? she doesn't and this is what is probably going to make things hard for her as she grows. she has the ability to rotate fast because she is so small, but she doesn't have sustainable technique. unfortunately she does not use speed and muscles her jumps which likely isn't going to work well in the future.

i love alysa and think she has loads of talent, but one place her former team failed her is in the technique department. she is going to have to relearn her jumps as she grows and gets older.

 

[NAOTMAA]

Alyssa's going to have to work on her basic skating skills as well. It's weird that doesn't get as much attention. She's already noticibly slower then the Russian and Korean girls in her age group. And growing will hurt her there just as much as it does the jumps.

I can't tell in the recent videos if she's improved or not (sometimes it can be deceptive) but working on skating skills will also help the jumps too. She won't have to muscle everything and rely on ultra fast rotation as much.

 

[hulksmash1337]

huh? she doesn't and this is what is probably going to make things hard for her as she grows. she has the ability to rotate fast because she is so small, but she doesn't have sustainable technique. unfortunately she does not use speed and muscles her jumps which likely isn't going to work well in the future.

i love alysa and think she has loads of talent, but one place her former team failed her is in the technique department. she is going to have to relearn her jumps as she grows and gets older.

If she can do the jumps, this already implies she has the correct technique. Whether the technique is refined or not, that is another question. And even if it isn't refined, that is normal for any skater, or for anyone doing anything. The fact that she can do it already, only gives her time in the future to refine and adjust it.

Take something more mundane, like playing video games (which is way way less hard on your body on skating). If you were a 20 year old, and you were asked to play 10 hours of video games non stop, 7 days a week, do you think you or your body will be able to handle it? even for a month? Probably not, because your wrist is gonna break in about a week or two doing that, correct technique or not. But if you give the same task to a 11 year old, they'll probably be able to do it, and growing pains or not, and they will probably be able to do it for 10,15 years. So yes, it matters that Alysa is already attempting the difficult elements now, because it's gonna be way harder to learn it in the future.

You have to realize that physically growing isn't the biggest problem to these skaters or their techniques. It's only a small hurdle compared to the mental one they face: being able to do something easily and then the next moment it's more difficult. If Alysa can get over that mental hurdle, she'll probably still grow as an athlete.

 

[NAOTMAA]

^^^^Sorry but being able to do the jumps now does NOT come close to implying she has correct technique or even close to it.

Just ask Caroline Zhang! She was doing fully rotated triples at 14 and then she had her growth spurt..... WHAM all gone. Alysa is nowhere near as bad but still she's closer to needing a jump overhaul rather then a simple refinement. Bradie and Mariah (or even Karen Chen to add another) need jump refinement because their technique while flawed is still stable, Alyssa's in comparison is not. It's way way more then just mental and adjusting to a new body to get back to what was done before

 

[hulksmash1337]

^^^^Sorry but being able to do the jumps now does NOT come close to implying she has correct technique or even close to it.

Just ask Caroline Zhang! She was doing fully rotated triples at 14 and then she had her growth spurt..... WHAM all gone. Alysa is nowhere near as bad but still she's closer to needing a jump overhaul not refinement. Bradie and Mariah (or even Karen Chen to add another) need jump refinement because their technique while flawed is still stable, Alyssa's in comparison is not. It's way way more then just mental and adjusting to a new body

Yes, but how much of that can you attribute to the physical change in her body? How much is that is Caroline Zhang's weak mental in response to the actual growth? Why has Bradie Tennell been able to get her jumps back despite having a serious back injury? Good technique and strength/power are not two separate things, being able to generate the height needed is a good technique, being able to create/force rotations is a good technique, all these things Alysa is already doing is a pointer of her technique. If you really think that bad technique in combination with a sudden growth in your body is the reason skaters start losing, why isn't this true for sports in general? Why is Usain Bolt, who has "bad techniques", the best sprinter in history? Why has Michael Phelps been so dominant, despite using really weird turns and suboptimal form? Technique is being able to utilize your body's potential and Alysa Liu has been consistently demonstrating that. Who says that using more power to jump rather than having a beautiful air position is bad technique? It's Alysa's technique, and sure it might be unique, but that doesn't mean it's bad, it means it's up to her to perfect it on her own terms.

Figure Skating is a really unique sport, and skaters should always be pushing the boundaries of techniques or what's possible, PLAYING THEIR GAME, not doing what others think is the best. Forget the analysts, forget what everybody else says to do, AND PLAY THEIR GAME.

 

[skatinggold]

^^^^Sorry but being able to do the jumps now does NOT come close to implying she has correct technique or even close to it.

Just ask Caroline Zhang! She was doing fully rotated triples at 14 and then she had her growth spurt..... WHAM all gone. Alysa is nowhere near as bad but still she's closer to needing a jump overhaul rather then a simple refinement. Bradie and Mariah (or even Karen Chen to add another) need jump refinement because their technique while flawed is still stable, Alyssa's in comparison is not. It's way way more then just mental and adjusting to a new body to get back to what was done before

The girl is injured. She can land her triples like a few weeks ago at the ISP. She will be back in no time and don’t worry about it.

 

[katymay]

Bradie Tennell isn't so great? Are you kidding me? When was the last time you saw a skater with such an ability and movement in their jumps? Bradie puts the game on another level, and we will be blessed if we ever see a skater with her skill and passion for the sport again. Alysa Liu breaks records. Nathan Chen breaks records. Bradie Tennell breaks the rules. You can keep your statistics. I prefer the magic. And her haircut.

Funny thing is I happened on her Grand Prix performance today, it just popped up after I was watching something else-she was amazing and strong. I hope she returns to this level, and I have every confidence she will.

 

[katymay]

^^^^Sorry but being able to do the jumps now does NOT come close to implying she has correct technique or even close to it.

Just ask Caroline Zhang! She was doing fully rotated triples at 14 and then she had her growth spurt..... WHAM all gone. Alysa is nowhere near as bad but still she's closer to needing a jump overhaul rather then a simple refinement. Bradie and Mariah (or even Karen Chen to add another) need jump refinement because their technique while flawed is still stable, Alyssa's in comparison is not. It's way way more then just mental and adjusting to a new body to get back to what was done before

I think Alysa's jump tech was pretty much okay, but she completed them using fast rotation which was easier when she was 4'7". But Alysa has never had powerful legs, and that problem has caught up with her now that she has grown. Karen Chen, in contrast, has powerful legs, but slow rotation. It is better to have the latter, IMO, but I do wish Karen would work with a jump specialist to tighten up her rotation a bit.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I think Alysa's jump tech was pretty much okay, but she completed them using fast rotation which was easier when she was 4'7". But Alysa has never had powerful legs, and that problem has caught up with her now that she has grown. Karen Chen, in contrast, has powerful legs, but slow rotation. It is better to have the latter, IMO, but I do wish Karen would work with a jump specialist to tighten up her rotation a bit.

In Colorado Springs, in addition to Tammy Gambill, Karen works with Tom Z, who is a jump specialist.

^^^^Sorry but being able to do the jumps now does NOT come close to implying she has correct technique or even close to it.

Just ask Caroline Zhang! She was doing fully rotated triples at 14 and then she had her growth spurt..... WHAM all gone. Alysa is nowhere near as bad but still she's closer to needing a jump overhaul rather then a simple refinement. Bradie and Mariah (or even Karen Chen to add another) need jump refinement because their technique while flawed is still stable, Alyssa's in comparison is not. It's way way more then just mental and adjusting to a new body to get back to what was done before

Caroline Zhang had hip dysplasia for a long time, it's kind of hard to jump with that, not to mention painful.

 

[katymay]

Even Trusova and Kostornaia lost their super speedy tight rotation when they hit growth spurts. The Plushy team seems to have worked with Trusova and I assume Kostornaia as well. (Toward the end of last year, Trusova's legs were loose and inefficient in the air, etc.). Again though, both of these girls have powerful legs and good speed, which helps them adjust.

 

[mrrice]

Even Trusova and Kostornaia lost their super speedy tight rotation when they hit growth spurts. The Plushy team seems to have worked with Trusova and I assume Kostornaia as well. (Toward the end of last year, Trusova's legs were loose and inefficient in the air, etc.). Again though, both of these girls have powerful legs and good speed, which helps them adjust.

Since we have all seen Bradie land a Lutz/Loop combo. Do you think she'll attempt it at Nationals and (Hopefully) Worlds to up her tech score?

 

[katymay]

Since we have all seen Bradie land a Lutz/Loop combo. Do you think she'll attempt it at Nationals and (Hopefully) Worlds to up her tech score?

She may have to. Bradie also depends more on rotation speed than leg strength. Amber, Audrey (age eligible?) and Karen are all in contention. If she skates like she did at the Grand Prix final she ought to be a lock. (And I understand she has been injured and just started jumping again right before Skate America)

 

[hulksmash1337]

She may have to. Bradie also depends more on rotation speed than leg strength. Amber, Audrey (age eligible?) and Karen are all in contention. If she skates like she did at the Grand Prix final she ought to be a lock. (And I understand she has been injured and just started jumping again right before Skate America)

Is she not working on a 3A also? I hope she gets a consistent one in the future.

 

[chuckm]

Bradie is not only a good jumper, but is also one fierce competitor. We haven't had a US lady with Bradie's steel nerves in quite a long time.

 

[mrrice]

Bradie is not only a good jumper, but is also one fierce competitor. We haven't had a US lady with Bradie's steel nerves in quite a long time.

I agree with this 100%. Bradie does seem to have nerves of steel. I was impressed with her showing at 4CC last season when she was the only US Lady in the field to Medal. Same with the GPF. The only time she really had problems was with her Free Program at Nationals which was unfortunate.

 

[macy]

Yes, but how much of that can you attribute to the physical change in her body? How much is that is Caroline Zhang's weak mental in response to the actual growth? Why has Bradie Tennell been able to get her jumps back despite having a serious back injury? Good technique and strength/power are not two separate things, being able to generate the height needed is a good technique, being able to create/force rotations is a good technique, all these things Alysa is already doing is a pointer of her technique. If you really think that bad technique in combination with a sudden growth in your body is the reason skaters start losing, why isn't this true for sports in general? Why is Usain Bolt, who has "bad techniques", the best sprinter in history? Why has Michael Phelps been so dominant, despite using really weird turns and suboptimal form? Technique is being able to utilize your body's potential and Alysa Liu has been consistently demonstrating that. Who says that using more power to jump rather than having a beautiful air position is bad technique? It's Alysa's technique, and sure it might be unique, but that doesn't mean it's bad, it means it's up to her to perfect it on her own terms.

Figure Skating is a really unique sport, and skaters should always be pushing the boundaries of techniques or what's possible, PLAYING THEIR GAME, not doing what others think is the best. Forget the analysts, forget what everybody else says to do, AND PLAY THEIR GAME.

uh, no. no no no.

compare Caroline Zhang in 2007 to 2011, her body changed massively.
if you compare Bradie from her junior years to now, she has kept the same proportions. this is why she has kept her jumps. she may have grown taller, but her body stayed proportionate.

i'm assuming you have never been a figure skater and probably just don't know better, but forcing your body to rotate is a recipe for injury. being able to land jumps does not mean you have good technique in any way shape or form. you have literally no idea what you're talking about.

you can't compare running or swimming, both COMPLETELY different sports in every single way to figure skating. Usain Bolt and Michael Phelps did not have to learn how to spin 4 times in the air at 13 and then figure out how to still do it several years later. they did not have to keep learning more difficult skills as they grew up. that is an extremely uneducated and embarrassing comparison.

instead of making assumptions you deem correct, please next time ASK for insight from people who actually know what they are talking about from experience.

 

[ice coverage]

... Bradie does seem to have nerves of steel. I was impressed with her showing at 4CC last season when she was the only US Lady in the field. Same with the GPF. ...

Karen Chen and Amber Glenn both achieved personal bests at 2020 Four Continents.
Bradie was not only the U.S. lady in the field there.

(I am not trying to take anything away from Bradie -- it is great that she won a medal at Four Continents.)

---

Audrey Shin article from Nov 3:

Audrey Shin Bursts Onto the Scene at Skate America - U.S. Figure Skating Fan Zone

In a twist of fate, Audrey Shin's breakthrough performance at the 2020 Guaranteed Rate Skate America never would have happened had it not been for the pandemic. The newcomer was set to compete on the Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating circuit again this year, but that series was canceled due to...

usfigureskatingfanzone.com