Will Asada or Kim match Kwan's record for consecutive world podium finishes?

[Mathman]

I think Yagudin has one of the most impressive records ever, not even Plushenko can match it.

Yagudin was 4 and 2 at the World Championships, and he medaled at every single worlds he skated in... .

Actually, that is the very point I have been trying to make.

Yagudin medaled in every world championship he skated in, nothing could stop him, one of the most impressive records of all time...

And yet, his body eventually gave out after a streak of six.

Stuff happens.

Will Mao Asada be lucky enough to outpace Yagudin, or will "stuff happen" to her, too?

 

[GoldMedalist]

Maybe a personal best comeptition for many skaters includes a mistake or two, but not for the very elite skaters. Kwan, Slutskaya, Arakawa, have skated multiple clean long programs in competition. Even other top skaters of her generation like Suguri and Sokolova have had perfect competitions.

Again, what is "perfect"? I would place Cohen's skate in Turin over any Long Program Suguri or Sokolova have ever done. She didn't achieve a Long Program equal to the best that Kwan, Slutskaya, or Arakawa were able to produce, no, but her Short Programs are certainly among the best ever. I would put place her SPs at 2004 Worlds and 2006 Olympics over any Short Program that Slutskaya or Arakawa ever did and maybe over the best Kwan ever did as well.

Besides, Katerina withstood the pressure and managed to win 2 Olympic gold medals, whereas Michelle never really managed to do that.

There's no way of telling if Katerina could have "withstood the pressure" of the current times. I don't think she would have. She doubled a Triple at each of her Olympics, so she wasn't perfect in the first place. Midori Ito should have won in 1988 by a mile.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Again, what is "perfect"? I would place Cohen's skate in Turin over any Long Program Suguri or Sokolova have ever done.

Sokolova's competition at the 2003 Worlds where she skated perfectly clean in all 3 programs, and landed a triple lutz-triple toe in all 3 programs would qualify as "perfect". If memory serves me correct Suguri had a perfect competition at the 2002 Olympics and 2004 GP final. Was Cohen at Turin better still? It is possible since she has qualities so far superior to Suguri and Sokolova that it may overcome the mistakes. Personally I think Sokolova from the 2003 Worlds would have beaten Cohen in Turin, but who knows for sure. The point delivering to your potential in major competition at some point by not making a "mistake". Something Cohen has never done.

She didn't achieve a Long Program equal to the best that Kwan, Slutskaya, or Arakawa were able to produce, no, but her Short Programs are certainly among the best ever. I would put place her SPs at 2004 Worlds and 2006 Olympics over any Short Program that Slutskaya or Arakawa ever did and maybe over the best Kwan ever did as well.

Considering Slutskaya was the dominant short program skater of her generation, I disagree but you are entitled your opinon. Keep in mind Slutskaya was scored about 4 points off both her personal and seasonal PB in the short program in Turin, and still lost the short to Cohen by only .03, and it was only Slutskaya's 3rd highest score in the short program all season. Cohen's PB in the short program was set in 2003-2004 season when the scoring was different then it was 2004-2005 season and beyond when the new system was consolidated, and even then she couldnt reach Slutskaya's PB set in 2006, and her Olympic score did not even come close to Slutskaya's PB. Under the old system Slutskaya in her prime (excluding 1995-1999), regularly beat either Kwan or Cohen in the short program (counting the start of Cohen's prime in 2002-2003), only on rare occasions losing to either in the short.

Either way you rarely win competitions ever in the short program, most of the time all you can do is not lose them. The long program is where you have to deliver a perfect program to win the gold medal at the major event, the way Kwan, Slutskaya, Arakawa have shown how to do, and something that is reasonable to expect someone of Cohen's talent and ability to have done at some point, but failed to ever do so.

There's no way of telling if Katerina could have "withstood the pressure" of the current times. I don't think she would have. She doubled a Triple at each of her Olympics, so she wasn't perfect in the first place. Midori Ito should have won in 1988 by a mile.

The jumps the women were doing were very difficult for the time, of course jumping difficulty has gone through great advancement since then, but it does not mean the pressure was much reduced then IMHO. The European women were not all that strong during the Witt era, and she pretty handily dominated Ivanova, Kondrashova, Voderezova, Leistner, et al. However she faced extremely strong competition from a never ending string of American women: Sumners, Zayak, Trenary, Thomas, Chin, Kadavy, who brought a variety of strengths and different kind of opposition to her. Time and time again she stared down 2 or 3 very strong Americans and took home the gold. Of course Manley and Ito were also ultra-dangerous, although Ito's figures always killed her chances then, and Manley was a real hot-and-cold skater. The best example of Witt's competitive edge was the 1987 Worlds. She skated right after Debi Thomas, the defending Champ who had skated one of her best performances ever, and remember she was in the U.S, the home of Thomas. She came out and gave one of her own best performances ever, including doing the triple loop which she had only added to her reportoire that very year (which Thomas had also done) and won the title. It was every bit as impressive as Kwan doing the same thing vs Chen at the 1996 Worlds, and Worlds there were not in China. She did double the triple loop at the 1988 Olympics, but that was the worst she skated in a major long program since the 1982 Worlds, if that is what constitutes her worst that is pretty darn good.

 

[cosmos]

Me, too.

I don't know either of them, so I may be totally off here. But of the two, my impression is that Yu-na Kim likes the performance aspect of the sport, she likes being in the spotlight and entertaining the crowd. (This is interesting, if true, because when Kim first came to the attention of fans in North America, when she was training in Barrie, she came across as such a shy little flower!)

I think you are right. I think Witt did (liked the performance), too. And, Kwan, too.

 

[GoldMedalist]

Sokolova's competition at the 2003 Worlds where she skated perfectly clean in all 3 programs, and landed a triple lutz-triple toe in all 3 programs would qualify as "perfect". If memory serves me correct Suguri had a perfect competition at the 2002 Olympics and 2004 GP final. Was Cohen at Turin better still? It is possible since she has qualities so far superior to Suguri and Sokolova that it may overcome the mistakes. Personally I think Sokolova from the 2003 Worlds would have beaten Cohen in Turin, but who knows for sure. The point delivering to your potential in major competition at some point by not making a "mistake". Something Cohen has never done.

Suguri did not have a perfect competition at 2002 Olympics - she doubled her Loop (and went on to do the same thing at Worlds, which really is a shame, because that was her best performance ever). At the 2004 GP it was again the Loop that caused her program to be imperfect -- she badly double-footed it and tipped out of the landing.

That is beside the point, though. While "delivering your potential" is good, you have to look at WHAT the potential is in the first place -- ie. the point total of all the elements and performance ability a skater has in total. Cohen's quality of everything outside the jumps is so great that, IMO, her Long Program at 2006 Olympics is indeed better than a clean 7-Triple program from Sokolova.

Considering Slutskaya was the dominant short program skater of her generation, I disagree but you are entitled your opinon. Keep in mind Slutskaya was scored about 4 points off both her personal and seasonal PB in the short program in Turin, and still lost the short to Cohen by only .03, and it was only Slutskaya's 3rd highest score in the short program all season.

That's great, but obviously my own opinion is different. I would have had Cohen ahead of Slutskaya by far more than .03 for the 2006 Olympic Short Program.

How is Slutskaya the "dominant short program skater of her generation", btw? She won the SP at 2001 Worlds, 2002 Worlds, 2005 Worlds. Cohen won the SP at 2004 Worlds, 2006 Olympics, 2006 Worlds. Both 3 times. Then there is Kwan who won the SP at 1996 Worlds, 1998 Olympics, 1998 Worlds, 2002 Olympics, and 2003 Worlds. 5 times...

The best example of Witt's competitive edge was the 1987 Worlds. She skatnoed right after Debi Thomas, the defending Champ who had skated one of her best performances ever, and remember she was in the U.S, the home of Thomas. She came out and gave one of her own best performances ever, including doing the triple loop which she had only added to her reportoire that very year (which Thomas had also done) and won the title.

I don't think anybody is saying Witt wasn't good. There's just no way of knowing how she would have performed in Kwan's era when 2 Triple Lutzes, a Flip, and a Loop were all necessary. But, mainly, I don't put a huge amount of value on Witt's Olympic medals in the first place. I don't think she deserved to win in 1988 and in 1984 the competition was really weak in comparison to what Fratianne, Potzsch, and Biellmann did 4 years earlier.

 

[slutskayafan21]

Suguri did not have a perfect competition at 2002 Olympics - she doubled her Loop (and went on to do the same thing at Worlds, which really is a shame, because that was her best performance ever). At the 2004 GP it was again the Loop that caused her program to be imperfect -- she badly double-footed it and tipped out of the landing.

That is beside the point, though. While "delivering your potential" is good, you have to look at WHAT the potential is in the first place -- ie. the point total of all the elements and performance ability a skater has in total. Cohen's quality of everything outside the jumps is so great that, IMO, her Long Program at 2006 Olympics is indeed better than a clean 7-Triple program from Sokolova.

Thank you for the corrections on Suguri. The whole point though is not whether Suguri or Sokolova's "full potential" or "perfect performance" is inferior or superior to Cohen's "imperfect" peformance. I was just pointing out examples that almost all the other top skaters have delivered a perfect performance in terms of not making mistakes, and doing what they are capable of, and thus why Cohen takes heat for never doing so herself. I fail to see how having a higher potential of performance makes it harder to deliver to that potential then a skater with lesser potential. Cohen's higher potential is strictly based on her various non-jumping qualities, the jumps she is trying are no harder then the other top skaters.

That's great, but obviously my own opinion is different. I would have had Cohen ahead of Slutskaya by far more than .03 for the 2006 Olympic Short Program.

Fine. I happen to think just the opposite. I had not thought too much of Cohen's score either way, but I have no idea what Irina did to deserve a much lower score then her seasonal PB when it was arguably her best performance of the season and the judges were being quite liberal in scoring other skaters with seasonal and personal PBs flying all over the place.

How is Slutskaya the "dominant short program skater of her generation", btw? She won the SP at 2001 Worlds, 2002 Worlds, 2005 Worlds. Cohen won the SP at 2004 Worlds, 2006 Olympics, 2006 Worlds. Both 3 times. Then there is Kwan who won the SP at 1996 Worlds, 1998 Olympics, 1998 Worlds, 2002 Olympics, and 2003 Worlds. 5 times...

Slutskaya's prime was 2000-2006, while Kwan's was 1996-2005. In their mutual events, during their mutual primes as skaters, Slutskaya won the short program at the 2001 Worlds, 2002 Worlds, 2005 Worlds, 2001 GP final, 2002 GP final; Kwan won the short program at the 2000 GP final and 2002 Olympics. Slutskaya was 2nd in the short program at the 2000 GP final, 2000 Worlds (ahead of Michelle), 2002 Olympics, 2006 Olympics. Kwan was 2nd in the short program at the 2001 Worlds, 2001 GP final. Kwan was 3rd in the short program at the 2000 World, 2002 Worlds, 2005 Worlds, 2002 GP final.

Slutskaya and Cohen competed against each other at major events in 2002-2006, during which both were in their primes. Slutskaya won the short program at the 2002 Worlds and 2005 Worlds. Cohen won the short program at the 2003 GP final and 2006 Olympics. Slutskaya was 2nd in the short program at the 2002 Olympics (ahead of Cohen), 2003 GP final, 2006 Olympics. Cohen was 2nd in the short program at 2005 Worlds, 3rd in the short program at the 2002 Olympics, 5th in the short program at the 2002 Worlds.

So yes I definitely see Slutskaya in her prime as being the queen of the short program, and more often then not besting Kwan and Cohen.

I don't think anybody is saying Witt wasn't good. There's just no way of knowing how she would have performed in Kwan's era when 2 Triple Lutzes, a Flip, and a Loop were all necessary. But, mainly, I don't put a huge amount of value on Witt's Olympic medals in the first place. I don't think she deserved to win in 1988 and in 1984 the competition was really weak in comparison to what Fratianne, Potzsch, and Biellmann did 4 years earlier.

Think that if you wish. The record books will always state Witt as a 2-time Oly Gold winner, to go along with her many other great accomplishments, giving her the epitome of the complete career. You dont think she deserved to win in 1988? Fine, I disagree. Under the system in place at the time she deserved it IMO. Manley was lucky to even be 3rd in the short, as Witt, Thomas, Kadavy, Ito, I thought were all better then her in the short. Ito was much too dreadful at figures to have any hope of a medal, let alone the gold medal, figures were part of the sport at the time, as much as people may wish otherwise, plus her artistic ability was that of a good junior skater at the time, and her artistic scores were justifiable.

The field in 1984 weak? I agree somewhat but I think the 1980 field was even worse, and one of the worst in history. I dont feel at all 1980 was a stronger field. Fratianne was a shaky compulsory figures skater, very good but not dazzling free skater, who while America's best at the time did not hold a candle to the quality of any of Fleming, Lynn, or Hamill. Poetzsch was an excellent compulsory figures skater, but not in the league of the past leaders in figures like Fleming, Schuba, Errath, Hamill; and a fairly strong but bland free skater Biellmann was an excellent free skater, who was horrendous at compulsory figures. If those were your 3 standouts, that is not a strong field. The expected bronze medalist in 1980 Dagmar Lurz was an even worse performer then say the surprise 1984 bronze medalist Kira Ivanova. 1984 had non medalists the quality of former World Champion Elaine Zayak, and future U.S Champion Tiffany Chin. 1984 weaker field? Perhaps, but easily better then 1980.

The fields from the 1972 Olympics with Schuba, Magnussen, Lynn, Holmes; and the 1976 Olympics with Hamill, DeLeeuw, Errath, would have easily trumped the 1980 field. The fact Hamill only won 1 World title to Fratianne's 2, despite Hamill being a clearly better compulsory figures skater, and much more dazzling free skater then Fratianne really makes this obvious.

 

[skatingfan04]

I thnik that these two may push this sport to places it hasn't been before. I think that the Kim/Asada rivalry will be one of the best the sport has ever seen. Same goes for the type of rivalry that I hope continues to grow between Davis/White and Virtue/Moir. IMO, all of the youngsters are the most exciting right now.

 

[Eddie Lee]

Let's remember that Witt was 18 (1984) at the time of her first Olympic gold, and 22 (1988) at the time of her second one. She was then off to the pros immediately after World's that year. Under the eligibility rules of that era she could only make the big bucks by turning pro. As a result, her amateur skating years were cut short. Not so with Kwan! The eligibility/amateur rules were much more relaxed by then--so much so that Kwan was able to amass millions and still remain eligible. (Wasn't she 26 when she made her last, aborted effort to snag that most elusive of golds?)

No question--both ladies (Witt and Kwan) will remain super luminaries in the history of ladies' figure skating.

Thank you!

I think some posters on this thread are punching a straw man. No one has claimed that Kwan's competitive record is more enviable than are the records of various skaters of the past.

What I am saying, is that it is hard for anyone to keep going and going and going without hitting a speed bump somewhere along the way.

Ulrich Salchow's streak of consecutive podium finishes would have been twice as long if he hadn't skipped the 1906 contest in Munich because he felt that, with all German/Austian judges on the panel, he woudn't have a chance to win.

Katarina Witt's streak would have been longer (she would have passed Button and Yagudin) except for a fourth place finish in 1983.

Slutskaya's steak was broken by illness, Plushenko's by injury.

Stuff happens.

Actually, that would make a good topic: What are the chances that Mao Asada will be able to tie Katarina Witt's record of 2 straight Olympic gold metals?

 

[Mathman]

Under the eligibility rules of that era she could only make the big bucks by turning pro. As a result, her amateur skating years were cut short.

Yes, exactly. In Witt's case it was rules governing eligibility and professional opportunities that brought her streak to a premature end.

In Slutskaya's case it was illness.

To maintain these streaks, everything has to break in your favor, year after year after year, even the rules of the sport. For instance, Mao and Yu-na already got a bad break because of the new age rules. They both might have medaled at 2006 worlds if they had been eligible.

 

[feraina]

For instance, Mao and Yu-na already got a bad break because of the new age rules. They both might have medaled at 2006 worlds if they had been eligible.

Mao, possibly. But Yu-na? She was skating on the junior circuit that entire year (and her first consistent junior year) and would have had to amend her LP. But considering Mao had a melt-down at the JW that year, perhaps Yu-na would've beaten Mao at wolrds too, and gotten on the podium with Kimmie & Sasha. But think how miserable an end note it would have been for Sasha if she had been left off the podium by the three youngsters Kimmie, Mao, and Yu-na that year, it was sad enough to place behind Kimmie when it really felt like her "turn" to win it.

 

[bekalc]

Mao, possibly. But Yu-na? She was skating on the junior circuit that entire year (and her first consistent junior year) and would have had to amend her LP. But considering Mao had a melt-down at the JW that year, perhaps Yu-na would've beaten Mao at wolrds too, and gotten on the podium with Kimmie & Sasha. But think how miserable an end note it would have been for Sasha if she had been left off the podium by the three youngsters Kimmie, Mao, and Yu-na that year, it was sad enough to place behind Kimmie when it really felt like her "turn" to win it.

Lost of skaters do the junior worlds and senior worlds. I think that Yu-na's team might have changed some things if Yu-na was allowed to do worlds. Besides, I've loved Sasha Cohen, but do you really think she deserved to medal at that particular worlds with that performance?

 

[feraina]

Lost of skaters do the junior worlds and senior worlds. I think that Yu-na's team might have changed some things if Yu-na was allowed to do worlds. Besides, I've loved Sasha Cohen, but do you really think she deserved to medal at that particular worlds with that performance?

One might argue how effective it is to compete on both junior & senior levels, even if it is entirely possible and frequently done -- Mao was spectacular that year in every competition except for the JW. Kimmie skated great at the 2005 Nationals and then unremarkably at the 2005 JW.

Sasha scored 181 (SP + LP) despite her error-filled LP, whereas Yu-na & Mao scored 178 & 153 at JW. They would've been allowed to do one more spin for a senior LP, so Yu-na might've beaten Sasha, but not Mao, who really fell apart at JW.

Anyway, nobody knows what would've really happened Mao & Yu-na been allowed to compete in the world championships (and the Olympics!) that year, and we all know scores fluctuate from competition to competition. I wasn't making so much a prediction of whether Sasha would've been on the podium, as I was imagining the terrible heartbreak it would've been for her had she been left off the podium altogether by these youngsters, now that both Kwan & Slutskaya were finally out of the way. Anyway, don't mind me and my idle imagination, just me getting a bit bored waiting for the real competition season to start.

 

[Wrlmy]

Right, but didn't Yuna compete as senior in Korea ever since she was 12 or something?

 

[feraina]

Right, but didn't Yuna compete as senior in Korea ever since she was 12 or something?

Yes. But I imagine she didn't have to skate perfectly or put in really difficult elements to win these nationals. Does anyone have detailed protocols?

 

[GoldMedalist]

The whole point though is not whether Suguri or Sokolova's "full potential" or "perfect performance" is inferior or superior to Cohen's "imperfect" peformance. I was just pointing out examples that almost all the other top skaters have delivered a perfect performance in terms of not making mistakes, and doing what they are capable of, and thus why Cohen takes heat for never doing so herself.

That first line IS the point, though. Cohen shouldn't take such a bashing for making mistakes. Why does someone else giving a "perfect" performance matter when a performance with a fall from Cohen is still superior? People should be praised for what they do well. Sasha's Silver Medal at the Olympics shouldn't be seen as a failure...it should be seen as her being the 2nd best female skater in the World at that time, which is a huge accomplishment. She turned out one the all-time best Short Programs and, in terms of artistry, her Long Program was also THE best performance at the Olympics in ANY field. In fact, I would have only had Arakawa ahead of Cohen by something like .7 with the SP and LP combined.

Slutskaya's prime was 2000-2006, while Kwan's was 1996-2005.

So? You said Slutskaya was the best SP skater of her generation. Slutskaya was competing at the Senior level just like Kwan from 1996 to 1999 and she was inferior all of those years. You need to take EVERYTHING into consideration if you're going to make such a broad statement.

The record books will always state Witt as a 2-time Oly Gold winner, to go along with her many other great accomplishments, giving her the epitome of the complete career. You dont think she deserved to win in 1988? Fine, I disagree. Under the system in place at the time she deserved it IMO.

I really don't care about "the system in place" one bit. You don't accept something in History as correct just because it happened. I give credence to my own thoughts, not ridiculous judges and a poor judging system. Figures hold absolutely 0 weight in my mind. Aside from just being bad in general, there is no documentation of what happened. I've never seen anyone who has a video of all the skaters going through their full figures runs or a detailed write-up of what every skater did. Judges could mess around with placement a lot in figures. Witt placed 3rd, but who knows if she deserved that. Maybe she should have been in 6th in figures. What I DO know is that Midori Ito absolutely should have been 1st place in both the SP and LP at the 1988 Olympics and the judges placed her 4th and 3rd. Shameful.

The field in 1984 weak? I agree somewhat but I think the 1980 field was even worse, and one of the worst in history. I dont feel at all 1980 was a stronger field.

Fratianne, Poetzsch, and Biellmann were all better in 1980 than any competition Witt had in 1984. Not sure how you can even disagree; just look the Long Programs.

 

[GoldMedalist]

But think how miserable an end note it would have been for Sasha if she had been left off the podium by the three youngsters Kimmie, Mao, and Yu-na that year, it was sad enough to place behind Kimmie when it really felt like her "turn" to win it.

Sasha shouldn't have been on the podium in the first place at 2006 Worlds. Should have been Kimmie - GOLD, Meier - SILVER, Suguri - BRONZE.

Yes, it's sad, but that's just how it goes. Her LP at 2006 Worlds was one of her worst ever.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

in terms of artistry, her Long Program was also THE best performance at the Olympics in ANY field.

I thought that distinction belonged to Matt Savoie. But off course that's highly subjective. I'm sure many could (and have) argued in of Arakawa's artistry.

Why does someone else giving a "perfect" performance matter when a performance with a fall from Cohen is still superior?

It matters when she's overhyped and overmarked.

 

[Jaana]

Yagudin medaled in every world championship he skated in, nothing could stop him, one of the most impressive records of all time...

Actually I see Plushenko´s medal record a little bit more impressive: Unlike Yagudin he won two Olympic medals against Yagudin´s one plus several Nationals titles (no National titles for Yagudin). Yagudin participated in 7 Europeans, medaled in five of them (3 gold medals). Plushenko participated in 8 Europeans, medaled in every one (5 gold medals).

 

[bekalc]

Actually I see Plushenko´s medal record a little bit more impressive: Unlike Yagudin he won two Olympic medals against Yagudin´s one plus several Nationals titles (no National titles for Yagudin). Yagudin participated in 7 Europeans, medaled in five of them (3 gold medals). Plushenko participated in 8 Europeans, medaled in every one (5 gold medals).

True but Yagudin has more world titles than Plushenko 4 to Plushenko's three, so that has to count for something...

As for the whole Olympic medal thing...You do realize that Alexei Yagudin was skating his long program with over a 101 degree fever... And so he by no means skated what he was capable of skating.. If Yagudin had been healthier he more than likely would have medaled at that Olympics. That's one of those extenuating circumstances kind of thing.

 

[attyfan]

...

As for the whole Olympic medal thing...You do realize that Alexei Yagudin was skating his long program with over a 101 degree fever... And so he by no means skated what he was capable of skating.. If Yagudin had been healthier he more than likely would have medaled at that Olympics. That's one of those extenuating circumstances kind of thing.

That brings us around full circle to the part that "luck" plays in winning the OGM -- is Michelle's defeat in Nagano "extenuated" because she suffered a stress fracture in her big toe (having to withdraw from her last Championship Series event and the final) and was unable to practice her own 3/3 combination?