2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[NadezhdaNadya]

I still think what you're saying is false. Tight legs are better but you are kidding no one trying to claim it's similar to edge issues or landing position, nice try. There are cases of real leg-wrap which are way worse than what Aliona does. Agree it isn't 'delayed rotation', but for an Eteri skater yes. Anna and Sasha lasso into their jumps much quicker and turn on their pick more. Aliona has tried to pre-rotate even less this season but I don't think it's working out since she is getting into the rotation slower and has lost rotation speed in general. (Possibly due to conditioning, possibly other reasons.)

Agree. I have watched these girls many times in slow motion. Guess what? Alyona pre-rotates much much much less than Shcherbakova and Trusova, she has better jump technique than them and her jumps look aestethic and pleasant in slow motion.
Off topic. I did not like Alyona's hairstyle and make-up today. (Nor her previous hairstyle and make-up) This is my favourite hairstyle and make-up of hers:

https://static.1tv.ru/uploads/photo/image/6/big/495926_big_5daf88db20.jpg

I think that she should return to this hairstyle and make-up in order to be on a par with the Russian king of beauty Sergei Rozanov. She should not allow him to overshadow her beauty! She is way too beautiful for this!

 

[Skatesocs]

It’s the entrance into the spins.

I don't think this is accurate. She does a difficult flying entry into her camel spin, it is true, but I think the first combo spin is choreographed to be two difficult variations of a sit position, difficult change of position from camel to upright, and 8 revs in the upright (which is also a difficult position).

I'm not sure where she lost her levels. I think the V is because she didn't hold the camel for long enough. And maybe they decided the tuck spin wasn't held long enough, dropping her to a level 3? But I don't get the FCCoSp2V. I hope someone responds.

 

[Fluture]

I‘ve just rewatched it and taken another look at the scoring and....

How on earth did Sasha end up having only about a point lower in TES than Aliona when she fell FOUR times and Aliona was visibly clean (minus the URs and lost levels - and even before the UR calls, her and Liza’s final TES were only higher by about 8 and 10 points respectively) That‘s... insane. It‘s not Sasha‘s fault, of course, and I really don’t want to kick her when she’s down already but I can’t help it... it really shows what‘s wrong with the judging/point system of this sport.

edit to clarify this: and I‘m not talking about some Plushenko bonus - the exact same would have happened under Eteri. It‘s the way falls from quads are scored. As an example - on her 4S fall she got 5.24. Aliona‘s clean 3Lo got her 5.88. Isn‘t that...a bit odd? I mean, sure, a quad‘s a quad and you should get high rewards for landing one. But if you fall... it should be another story IMO.

 

[Lechat]

I like Sasha’s new costume. It suits her well. Honestly despite all the falls and mistakes, she has the most entertaining program.
Congrats to Liza with her well deserved victory, she really did it. As for Alena, something is still missing. I’m not mesmerized like I was before.

 

[colormyworld240]

Even you know Aliona doesn't prerotate her jumps as much as Anna or Sasha. I don't like it, but I still think it's impressive they get into rotation so quickly.

Look at the air position of a solo Lutz of Anna who is known for great air-position and Aliona. This is the rotation before the final rotation:




The problem is blown out of proportion it almost becomes a mistruth. I remember you were the one saying Aliona was a slow skater before too and just has good edges yet the facts said different then as well.

There's been arguments about Anna and Sasha going over half turn and I don't see it but sure maybe they do. With the two photos, they can have the same air position at one point in the air but it's not the same through the whole jump? I could say Anna has a deep outside edge on her lutz at at the beginning too but that doesn't mean she maintains it through picking. And Alena isn't slow, but she is slower than Kamila and Anastasia. I can also say she's faster than Anna and Liza, and unsure about Sasha. I think you may be referring to my post about Kamila vs. Alena's skating skills where I said Kamila is better with generating and keeping speed with edges that aren't as smooth where as Alena is better with edges but slows down more in her turns and twizzles, and I still think that's true.

 

[silveruskate]

There's been arguments about Anna and Sasha going over half turn and I don't see it but sure maybe they do. With the two photos, they can have the same air position at one point in the air but it's not the same through the whole jump? I could say Anna has a deep outside edge on her lutz at at the beginning too but that doesn't mean she maintains it through picking. And Alena isn't slow, but she is slower than Kamila and Anastasia. I can also say she's faster than Anna and Liza, and unsure about Sasha. I think you may be referring to my post about Kamila vs. Alena's skating skills where I said Kamila is better with generating and keeping speed with edges that aren't as smooth where as Alena is better with edges but slows down more in her turns and twizzles, and I still think that's true.

With the last rotation they're uncurling so there's no point. This is the best one to see their best rotation position. If you want to see the position at first rotation you can but both are still getting into rotation, and actually Anna's legs are wider apart there than Aliona. But seriously see for yourself if you don't believe me. What is being said about Aliona's leg-wrap proves to be way out of proportion in any case. I think Anna's legs are tighter when she jumps lower, but I remember in 2019-20 how it was said that Anna's final Lutz was looking better and higher. She could afford a looser position (still not bad) the same way Aliona's isn't bad. As you mentioned, with Kolyada whose air-position on the 3Lz is the same, it looks like a pop and the landing flows less due to impact of the blade on the ice from checking out so high.

Given the difference with 3A and 2A for Aliona, and Anna whose 4Lz is perfect efficiency with tight air-position, it looks like they can work to change it.

With the twizzles I agree and I believe I even mentioned that myself first. But on efficiency of gaining speed Aliona was on top during the 2018-2019 season. You can stand by what you said but the facts say otherwise so I really do not get it. Aliona is one of the fastest skaters.

 

[NAOTMAA]

I‘ve just rewatched it and taken another look at the scoring and....

How on earth did Sasha end up having only about a point lower in TES than Aliona when she fell FOUR times and Aliona was visibly clean (minus the URs and lost levels - and even before the UR calls, her and Liza’s final TES were only higher by about 8 and 10 points respectively) That‘s... insane. It‘s not Sasha‘s fault, of course, and I really don’t want to kick her when she’s down already but I can’t help it... it really shows what‘s wrong with the judging/point system of this sport.

This very point you make, concerning the quads and TES,, has been plaguing the men's competitive threads since the beginning of COP and while it hasn't the ladies it surely will very soon. I'm not looking forward to that because we really don't need yet another thing for fans of ladies skating to argue about

To be honest I'm not sure there really is even a way to fix this issue in the judging/point system that will be satisfactory. One side is always going to be unhappy about it.

 

[silveruskate]

During 2018-19 Vasilieva and Tarusina were the only ones faster than Aliona, and they used zillions more crossovers and steps. The season before I would have said Aliona was even faster, but there's no proof of that. I think you said how Aliona never came across as particularly fast but had great edges.

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[nussnacker]

I don't think this is accurate. She does a difficult flying entry into her camel spin, it is true, but I think the first combo spin is choreographed to be two difficult variations of a sit position, difficult change of position from camel to upright, and 8 revs in the upright (which is also a difficult position).

I'm not sure where she lost her levels. I think the V is because she didn't hold the camel for long enough. And maybe they decided the tuck spin wasn't held long enough, dropping her to a level 3? But I don't get the FCCoSp2V. I hope someone responds.

The second sit spin position wasn’t low enough, don’t you think? The hip position was too high.

 

[Skatesocs]

The second sit spin position wasn’t low enough, don’t you think? The hip position was too high.

I can see that.

 

[Jontor]

Well...after that CRAZY competition I have finally calmed down.

Tuktamysheva - What a gal. I loved her today. She reminds me of the olden days when we had old divas on the figure skating scene...well, Tuktamysheva is that diva now. I don't care about her skating skills and her sometimes poor layouts and choreography. She delivered today and it wasn't pefect but she sold it so well. I am SO happy for her win. Well deserved. And I hope this makes her work even harder to fight for future spots at international events.

Kostornaia - I don't care much about dresses and looks, but who made Kostornaia look like a politician wife? Anyway, great skate, but, the magic is not there. And it's clear to me that she has some stamina issues. And she is not as crisp as she was last year, thus the URs and lost levels. She desperately needs that 3A at Nationals.

Guliakova - I love all Russian girls, but Guliakova always falls under my radar. There is too many other interesting girls to look out for (like the Rukavicin girls!). Nice skate, clean(-ish), but I didn't love it as much as I wanted. Congrats though to a much surprising bronze medal!

Trusova - well that was a disaster. I didn't think I would ever see such a meltdown from Sasha after RusNats last year. Well, here it was, and it was worse. I'm convinced now, Sasha needs a sports psychologist to help her through competitons. It's all in her head. This was not a bad day, because it seems to always end like this. We have seen her at warm ups landing 3A's and quads like it's no problem, but then she can't deliver when it matters. I love Sasha, she is a phenomenon, but have we EVER seen a clean skate from her? (Actually, I am going to look that up!)

Nugumanova - I am so happy for Nugumanova that she got the chance here. I don't like her programs this year as much as last year, but I just love her. She has the personality and style. Three big mistakes, underrotated Lutz, doubled the Flip, downgraded Loop - but if she would have been clean she could have challenged Guliakova for the bronze! And her spins are to die for...

I like Samodurova's programs this year (I hated her previous ones) but this wasn't her day. And it also meant it wasn't a Russian sweep.

Great skate by Kiibus and Safonova, those two have potential.

My conclusion after this crazy event - Shcherbakova was sorely missed...

 

[Tolstoj]

With Gulyakova what's very interesting is that this was her debut in the GP series and she medalled at her first shot!

Her was also quite the journey, she has been working with Mishin for 2 years and frankly skating consistently at most of the events, i think this debut could have come earlier but either way she kept working, improving her results step by step, and regardless of how it came this is still an achievement.

Alongside Tuktamysheva she is proving that if you keep competing, you can improve, careers in ladies don't necessarily have to end at the age of 17-18.

She still has that 3a, so plenty of room for more improvements in the future.

 

[Jontor]

I‘ve just rewatched it and taken another look at the scoring and....

How on earth did Sasha end up having only about a point lower in TES than Aliona when she fell FOUR times and Aliona was visibly clean (minus the URs and lost levels - and even before the UR calls, her and Liza’s final TES were only higher by about 8 and 10 points respectively) That‘s... insane. It‘s not Sasha‘s fault, of course, and I really don’t want to kick her when she’s down already but I can’t help it... it really shows what‘s wrong with the judging/point system of this sport.

edit to clarify this: and I‘m not talking about some Plushenko bonus - the exact same would have happened under Eteri. It‘s the way falls from quads are scored. As an example - on her 4S fall she got 5.24. Aliona‘s clean 3Lo got her 5.88. Isn‘t that...a bit odd? I mean, sure, a quad‘s a quad and you should get high rewards for landing one. But if you fall... it should be another story IMO.

I agree. This is where the IJS system makes no sense. You mustn't forget though that when you see Sasha's tech points, it's before the fall deductions.

But I think falls should be punished harder. I'd say -3 for every fall. Falls are such a distraction to the program and it should show in the results.

It's funny, this is the one thing that non-figure-skating-fans don't understand. They think - you fall - you lose. But that is not always the case.

If the ISU wants to make this sport more accessible to a broader public they need to address that.

Edit: About Sasha's tech points. I think that she was a bit lucky with her 4T Sal combo. It was first judged as a sequence, and rightly so because she did make a turn before the euler, and that would have meant that the whole combo was only worth 80%.

 

[NAOTMAA]

I agree. This is where the IJS system makes no sense. You mustn't forget though that when you see Sasha's tech points, it's before the fall deductions.

But I think falls should be punished harder. I'd say -3 for every fall. Falls are such a distraction to the program and it should show in the results.

It's funny, this is the one thing that non-figure-skating-fans don't understand. They think - you fall - you lose. But that is not always the case.
If the ISU wants to make this sport more accessible to a broader public they need to address that.

You know to this very day I still remember Jeffrey Buttle and his coach pretty much flat out admitting they put the quad in his program knowing full well 100% he would never land it but did so anyway because of the big points he would get for simply rotating it.

I can't remember how the ISU changed the system to stop that type of thing (they did right?) but the more and more I hear about ladies (who frankly in my opinion got no business trying at this moment) going for a 3A now I fear the ladies might be soon heading in that direction. Aleksandra's score compared to her actual performance and compared to what her competitors did feels like it would encourage it

 

[nussnacker]

You know to this very day I still remember Jeffrey Buttle and his coach flat out admitting they put the quad in his program knowing full well 100% he would never land it but did so anyway because of the big points he would get for simply rotating it.

I can't remember how the ISU changed the system to stop that type of thing (they did right?) but the more and more I hear about ladies (who frankly in my opinion got no business trying at this moment) going for a 3A now I fear the ladies might be soon heading in that direction

I think it’s the -50% for the fall.
Landing a very good 3F would score way better than falling from a rotated 4F.

I think ladies are still growing to be more consistent with those jumps, Sasha going for insane layouts is pretty unique in ladies. Mostly, all strive to just skate super clean.

 

[Jontor]

You know to this very day I still remember Jeffrey Buttle and his coach flat out admitting they put the quad in his program knowing full well 100% he would never land it but did so anyway because of the big points he would get for simply rotating it.

I can't remember how the ISU changed the system to stop that type of thing (they did right?) but the more and more I hear about ladies (who frankly in my opinion got no business trying at this moment) going for a 3A now I fear the ladies might be soon heading in that direction. Aleksandra's score compared to her actual performance and compared to what her competitors did feels like it would encourage it

I think the changes made after the last olympic season was good. The +5/-5 system was meant to fix that scenario you're describing with attempted quads not landed. Now it is more risky to attempt a quad than back then.

But the example @Fluture made above with Sasha getting 5.24 points for her failed 4S is relevant (though it was 4.24 points as the deduction was later added to that). It is still too many points compared to a nice triple jump IMO. So I'd say -3 for all falls (in addition to -5 in GOE of course).

 

[Shayuki]

[/QUOTE]

I‘ve just rewatched it and taken another look at the scoring and....

How on earth did Sasha end up having only about a point lower in TES than Aliona when she fell FOUR times and Aliona was visibly clean (minus the URs and lost levels - and even before the UR calls, her and Liza’s final TES were only higher by about 8 and 10 points respectively) That‘s... insane.

Kostornaya jumped 6 triples and two 2Axels. That's very weak technical content, and she also got two URs, and a Q. Lost levels and variations as well, as you say. It's really not that strange. Underscoring isn't what I'd complain about, I think Kostornaya got scored way too high for that program. 142 points for such a soulless, 6 triple program that was bleeding levels on just about every element? It's genuinely baffling.

And in reality, Trusova got 7 points lower in TES. Obviously, it's not listed in TES, but falls still are falls and I would consider those to be a part of TES. In general, it's rather odd to me to not consider fall deduction when talking about how high someone's scoring is with multiple falls.

On the topic of Trusova, this is exactly what I was saying. Why does she want to do even more quads when she couldn't even skate her 2-3 quad programs cleanly? She should be consistent with those before adding more, that just leads to disaster, exactly as we saw with her skate here.

It was predictable, too, which is why it's a great shame that Anna was not able to compete. This essentially was a very low level competition and a total free win for her. Yes, Tuktamysheva's winning score of 223 is quite respectable, but the only reason they scored her that high is because the competition was a total disaster otherwise and they scored her through the roof just for skating halfway decently. In reality her performance barely deserved 210 if that, but it is what it is.

 

[Jontor]

I think it’s the -50% for the fall.
Landing a very good 3F would score way better than falling from a rotated 4F.

I think ladies are still growing to be more consistent with those jumps, Sasha going for insane layouts is pretty unique in ladies. Mostly, all strive to just skate super clean.

Landing a 3F with +3 Goe is 6.89 points
Falling on a rotated 4F is 4.50 points.

Is that fair? I'm not so sure...I think the fall should be deemed harder.

 

[sclloyd]

Zagi's Euros comp is mentioned all the time haha - it was mentioned repeatedly recently in regards to the 2019 worlds selection. However, afterwards Zagi won Worlds.

I meant in the context of "a bad competition means you're done". We could also talk about Kamila's Bolero. But I try to stay away from discussions like this. There are so many behind the scenes factors that go into competitions and we see maybe 5% of that. There's no need for us to make judgement calls about coaches over a single bad outing. Even I was wrong about Mishin not being able to get girls on the podium because of the wonky formats. And here we are.

 

[colormyworld240]

I agree. This is where the IJS system makes no sense. You mustn't forget though that when you see Sasha's tech points, it's before the fall deductions.

But I think falls should be punished harder. I'd say -3 for every fall. Falls are such a distraction to the program and it should show in the results.

It's funny, this is the one thing that non-figure-skating-fans don't understand. They think - you fall - you lose. But that is not always the case.

If the ISU wants to make this sport more accessible to a broader public they need to address that.

Edit: About Sasha's tech points. I think that she was a bit lucky with her 4T Sal combo. It was first judged as a sequence, and rightly so because she did make a turn before the euler, and that would have meant that the whole combo was only worth 80%.

This would be so harsh. It wouldn't be that bad for a quad. But if a skater falls on a 2A, the jump gets only 1.65 points after the mandatory -5 GOE. With the current -1 deduction it's like the jump gets 0.65, credit for full rotation which matters too. But with a -3 deduction that goes into the negative meaning there's no credit for rotating it and they would lose more TES than what the jump is even worth. Basically they lose a chunk of their points from spins/steps if there are multiple falls in the SP. And I do think there should be some credit for rotating the jump ie. net positive after -5 GOE and fall deduction. Overall, the current system does value rotating + falling over popping for quads, triples, and doubles. I think they try to deal with the distraction to a program with -2 for falls.