2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Fluture]

Kostornaya jumped 6 triples and two 2Axels. That's very weak technical content, and she also got two URs, and a Q. Lost levels and variations as well, as you say. It's really not that strange. Underscoring isn't what I'd complain about, I think Kostornaya got scored way too high for that program. 142 points for such a soulless, 6 triple program? It's genuinely baffling.

And in reality, Trusova got 7 points lower in TES.

Have you read my comment before your ranting? Lol.

Never complained about underscoring for Kostornaya. I was commenting on the fact that with a 7 triple (yes, 7, not 6, btw. Wouldn’t hurt too count before complaining yourself. 2 3Lz, 2 3F, 3T, 3S, 3Lo) program, she barely led someone on TES who fell four times and also lost levels on spins. 7 points still seems like an odd difference to me, same as the 17 points difference between Liza, who landed two 3As, and her. I commented on my own view. For me falls are very distracting so seeing them score like this - no matter how difficult the attempted jump was - is the baffling thing.

As for the rest of your post... sorry to say, but your bias is showing so much. You don‘t have to continuously tear down her competitors to lift up Anna. IMO, it‘s just bad taste and adds nothing to the discussion.

 

[nussnacker]

I meant in the context of "a bad competition means you're done". We could also talk about Kamila's Bolero. But I try to stay away from discussions like this. There are so many behind the scenes factors that go into competitions and we see maybe 5% of that. There's no need for us to make judgement calls about coaches over a single bad outing. Even I was wrong about Mishin not being able to get girls on the podium because of the wonky formats. And here we are.

Oh boy... Alina wasn’t allowed a single mistake, much less to bomb a program. whenever she missed even 1 jump all the wrath of Russian skating elite would be unleashed upon her. After Euros and Nationals that year I think the narrative of her being done was so loud with the elite, rusfed even demanded her to skate programs to them in private to re-earn her spot. Even when she won, some were really really mean and bitter about it. How she managed to hold up, and win worlds and keep competing after that is beyond me.
Alina really had one of the worst treatments by press and Russian FS elite.
No wonder she doesn’t want to go out, every single time she’s not perfect she gets ripped apart by media and those commentators. And every single time they insist and insist she NEEDS to retire. It’s just horrible.

 

[lopsilceci]

What is your opinion on Guliakova vs Samodurova? Is Guliakova really that much better than Samodurova?

Honestly, I find them too similar to each other in every way.

Today Sofia had a fall, but yesterday and other times when she has skated cleaner, the judges simply don't seem to care about her.
Now she's getting lower PCS than Guliakova. Really, winning Euros did absolutely nothing for her reputation, it seems.
I guess Guliakova has become Mishin's number two lady.

 

[Fluture]

This would be so harsh.

Yup. Getting into the negative for actually rotating a jump seems a bit harsh to me too. But then again... if you fall, you expect your score to go down, overall, not up.
This kind of discussion just shows how hard it is to balance the system and I‘m kind of sorry I brought it here. I think the +5/-5 GOE change did a lot of good but sometimes, like today, I‘m still sitting in front of the score sheet and am trying to correlate what I see there with the performance I just watched. It is what it is. I doubt there will be a perfect solution, now or ever.

 

[Jontor]

This would be so harsh. It wouldn't be that bad for a quad. But if a skater falls on a 2A, the jump gets only 1.65 points after the mandatory -5 GOE. With the current -1 deduction it's like the jump gets 0.65, credit for full rotation which matters too. But with a -3 deduction that goes into the negative meaning there's no credit for rotating it and they would lose more TES than what the jump is even worth. Basically they lose a chunk of their points from spins/steps if there are multiple falls in the SP. And I do think there should be some credit for rotating the jump ie. net positive after -5 GOE and fall deduction. Overall, the current system does value rotating + falling over popping for quads, triples, and doubles. I think they try to deal with the distraction to a program with -2 for falls.

I see your point. Making the jumps go into negative points - but why not? Falls are always a disaster to a program and I think it should show.

 

[sclloyd]

Oh boy... Alina wasn’t allowed a single mistake, much less to bomb a program. whenever she missed even 1 jump all the wrath of Russian skating elite would be unleashed upon her. After Euros and Nationals that year I think the narrative of her being done was so loud with the elite, rusfed even demanded her to skate programs to them in private to re-earn her spot. Even when she won, some were really really mean and bitter about it. How she managed to hold up, and win worlds and keep competing after that is beyond me.
Alina really had one of the worst treatments by press and Russian FS elite.
No wonder she doesn’t want to go out, every single time she’s not perfect she gets ripped apart by media and those commentators. And every single time they insist and insist she NEEDS to retire. It’s just horrible.

On a media level I don't disagree. In this forum there are obvious favorites. I haven't been to the new coaching forum. No doubt this discussion is taking a far more vitriolic form there.

Now if we could give to Sasha what Alina has in mental fortitude... there is an unconquerable champion.

 

[nussnacker]

I see your point. Making the jumps go into negative points - but why not? Falls are always a disaster to a program and I think it should show.

Then skaters would stop risking and trying quads at all. Rarely someone gets it on their first try.
Making 4 rotations is still damn hard, and should get points.
The system the way it is right now seems optimal to me: clean skating is prioritized and quads still earn some points.

 

[Jeanie19]

I see your point. Making the jumps go into negative points - but why not? Falls are always a disaster to a program and I think it should show.

The issue is GOE. I see the lower tier skaters getting huge negative GOE on popped jumps and falls,

 

[Fluture]

What is your opinion on Guliakova vs Samodurova? Is Guliakova really that much better than Samodurova?

Honestly, I find them too similar to each other in every way.

I like Sofia infinitely more. I mean, I‘m sure Guliakova‘s a nice girl and she did very well here but for me, Sofia has personality and a uniqueness in her skating that just no one else has. Her programs may be weird sometimes but they‘re always a breath of fresh air. And it‘s not like Guliakova‘s jumping that much better either - they have similar issues on the lutz edge. Sofia‘s jumps are smaller but when she gets them around, they‘re fine. I just don‘t seem to enjoy Guliakova‘s skating, even when she went all out today it was still a bit forgettable to me. (very subjective of course) Whereas there‘s nothing forgettable about Samodurova whatsoever, for better or worse.

Today she failed her jumps, though, so no medal obviously. But in the SP (and generally when she skates cleanly) the judges just don‘t seem to go for her. I think I read somewhere that Yagudin said he talked to her yesterday and she was crying - struggling to understand her UR calls on the combo. It‘s really quite sad to watch.

 

[Jontor]

What is your opinion on Guliakova vs Samodurova? Is Guliakova really that much better than Samodurova?

Honestly, I find them too similar to each other in every way.

Today Sofia had a fall, but yesterday and other times when she has skated cleaner, the judges simply don't seem to care about her.
Now she's getting lower PCS than Guliakova. Really, winning Euros did absolutely nothing for her reputation, it seems.
I guess Guliakova has become Mishin's number two lady.

I think Guliakova and Samodurova are both very Mishin-esque and similar. But I think Sofia is the better skater and is still Mishin's number two.

I was actually looking at Samodurova's scores this week. They haven't been that bad this year, in fact she is scoring like she did in the 2019 season. And she is scoring much better than last season. The 2019 season for Sofia was a fluke. She scored the same as today, but back then, the famous 3A wasn't in play and she somehow with a little luck got all the way to Euros. Maybe she was a bit overscored there but it was only 72 points in the short and 140 in the long.

Yesterday she scored 68 in the short and had a bad day today. I'd say that the competition around Sofia is so much more fierce nowadays...

 

[colormyworld240]

Yup. Shows how hard it is to balance the system. I think the +5/-5 GOE change did a lot of good but sometimes, like today, I‘m still sitting in front of the score sheet and am trying to correlate what I see there with the performance I just watched. It is what it is. I doubt there will be a perfect solution, now or ever.

I think the way the TES system is currently (for jumps) makes most sense mathematically. The GOE and deductions are done in such a way that there are points for rotating even with falling. There's not really a way to have a bigger falling penalty without losing more than the jump is worth on doubles (maybe already happens, haven't done the math for singles and non-2A doubles). Unless the falling penalty increases with the number of rotations, but I don't like that idea either. The +5/-5 definitely helped as more points are lost on falls now, and it works because GOE is factored to the number of rotations. I agree with the factoring because it goes both ways: bigger loss for falls but also bigger net GOE for good execution. Where as staggering deductions for falls only goes one way: bigger deductions for falling with more rotations but nothing for good execution. I'd like to see more value on spins and steps and a greater staggering of BV with the variations/positions/rotations, not just in the form of levels.

 

[Lzbee]

This if is disgusting (min 5:37)... to see a coach provoking the crowd as if he were a hooligan ... this will never be seen in any decent coach, outside or inside Russia ... Now with what authority is he going to claim if he is the only promoter of the toxic environment that is beginning to be seen in Russian skating ...

You're validating nasty behaviour towards a skater because her coach did something you didn't agree with.

 

[Shayuki]

When it comes to the gala, it's a shame that the only "local skaters(usually reserved for pre-junior talents)" are the two male skaters. I get that the two are the most talented Russian male skaters in years, but there was some serious opportunity to showcase some future star female skaters. Unfortunate, but perhaps it's not such a big deal with this essentially being a local competition. Maybe that'll be best reserved for next season...

 

[Scott512]

Well...after that CRAZY competition I have finally calmed down.

Tuktamysheva - What a gal. I loved her today. She reminds me of the olden days when we had old divas on the figure skating scene...well, Tuktamysheva is that diva now. I don't care about her skating skills and her sometimes poor layouts and choreography. She delivered today and it wasn't pefect but she sold it so well. I am SO happy for her win. Well deserved. And I hope this makes her work even harder to fight for future spots at international events.

Kostornaia - I don't care much about dresses and looks, but who made Kostornaia look like a politician wife? Anyway, great skate, but, the magic is not there. And it's clear to me that she has some stamina issues. And she is not as crisp as she was last year, thus the URs and lost levels. She desperately needs that 3A at Nationals.

Guliakova - I love all Russian girls, but Guliakova always falls under my radar. There is too many other interesting girls to look out for (like the Rukavicin girls!). Nice skate, clean(-ish), but I didn't love it as much as I wanted. Congrats though to a much surprising bronze medal!

Trusova - well that was a disaster. I didn't think I would ever see such a meltdown from Sasha after RusNats last year. Well, here it was, and it was worse. I'm convinced now, Sasha needs a sports psychologist to help her through competitons. It's all in her head. This was not a bad day, because it seems to always end like this. We have seen her at warm ups landing 3A's and quads like it's no problem, but then she can't deliver when it matters. I love Sasha, she is a phenomenon, but have we EVER seen a clean skate from her? (Actually, I am going to look that up!)

Nugumanova - I am so happy for Nugumanova that she got the chance here. I don't like her programs this year as much as last year, but I just love her. She has the personality and style. Three big mistakes, underrotated Lutz, doubled the Flip, downgraded Loop - but if she would have been clean she could have challenged Guliakova for the bronze! And her spins are to die for...

I like Samodurova's programs this year (I hated her previous ones) but this wasn't her day. And it also meant it wasn't a Russian sweep.

Great skate by Kiibus and Safonova, those two have potential.

My conclusion after this crazy event - Shcherbakova was sorely missed...

Excellent in-depth analysis as usual Jontor.

Yes Anna was terribly missed and a healthy Anna pushes everyone down one spot and of course if KV was there everybody goes down two spots.

While I'm a little disappointed in aliona and Sasha I give everybody a pass for this season because it's such a screw-up. and they can certainly make up for it at Nationals which is a much bigger event than what this thing was.

Let's hope everyone is healthy going into Nationals although that's probably unlikely with what's going on in the world.

 

[colormyworld240]

I see your point. Making the jumps go into negative points - but why not? Falls are always a disaster to a program and I think it should show.

I think rotating a jump should earn something ie. above zero compared to not doing it at all. Actually even falling and UR. And I don't think falling on a jump should result in losing points gained from spins/steps/other jumps. It does affect the performance, but that's what PCS is supposed to be for. I think technical elements should be looked at individually, and therefore should not go under 0.

 

[rollerblade]

Landing a 3F with +3 Goe is 6.89 points
Falling on a rotated 4F is 4.50 points.

Is that fair? I'm not so sure...I think the fall should be deemed harder.

How would you balance it? If you give -3 deduction to each fall, that fallen 4F is now worth 2.5.

And then people will go back to playing it safe, because 3F with -2 GOE is worth more than 4F with a fall.

 

[Jontor]

I think the way the TES system is currently (for jumps) makes most sense mathematically. The GOE and deductions are done in such a way that there are points for rotating even with falling. There's not really a way to have a bigger falling penalty without losing more than the jump is worth on doubles (maybe already happens, haven't done the math for singles and non-2A doubles). Unless the falling penalty increases with the number of rotations, but I don't like that idea either. The +5/-5 definitely helped as more points are lost on falls now, and it works because GOE is factored to the number of rotations. I'd like to see more value on spins and steps and a greater staggering of BV with the variations/positions/rotations, not just in the form of levels.

Yes I agree. But as much as I love the new +5/-5 system, I do think there is some fine tuning to do. Maybe my -3 suggestion is not the best option, but perhaps spins should be valued more? I sometimes think that terrible spins get level 4s, when great spins doesn't. The criteria for spins are just a bit off I think. E.g. Nugumanova today with her fantastic spins wasn't rewarded enough.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I see your point. Making the jumps go into negative points - but why not? Falls are always a disaster to a program and I think it should show.

For this to make sense you’d almost have to create a negative value chart. Like falling on a double would be more costly than falling on a triple and a triple more costly than quad. We could even super punish falls during step sequences because there is nothing worse than that ️

 

[Jontor]

How would you balance it? If you give -3 deduction to each fall, that fallen 4F is now worth 2.5.

And then people will go back to playing it safe, because 3F with -2 GOE is worth more than 4F with a fall.

But is that such a bad thing? Playing it safe? It means that you won't go out there with a content that you know you most certainly won't be able to do. Then we will have more clean skates, and the judging will be more about who is the best, not who has the most mistakes...

 

[kirauza343]

Lot of bold assumptions that Anna would’ve automatically won if she’d competed here healthy...never mind that ice is slippery and that she’s also had some jump troubles as of late. Remember, based on how well Sasha had been doing (three clean quads at her last Russian cup!) she was expected to have an easy win here without Anna and look how that turned out.

That being said acting like Sasha is done after one poor performance is ridiculous. This has been a difficult year for every skater and even with that she’s looked strong at each of her previous performances under Plushenko. If there starts being a pattern then there’s a reason to be concerned but until then she’s allowed to have one bad day at a competition that doesn’t really matter this year.