2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[chasingneverland]

It's important to note that Anna (and her team because it was one that was eventually supported by her coaches/parents/doctors and the Fed itself) made a decision that did NOT occur in a vacuum.

1. Skaters have frequently skated with illness/injuries. This is a culture that needs to be changed but as it stands it's the one Anna resides in. There have been numerous examples of that, including ones Anna herself has personally seen play out (ex, Sofia at test skates, Evgenia during the Olympic season, etc.)
2. Anna skates in a country that has NOT responded well to COVID at all and has NOT given it the respect it's due.

The Federation and indeed even higher up, the Russian government, themselves the the ones with blood on their hands and the ones responsible for gross mismanagement, negligence, and undue harm.
This is the country Anna (and all Russian top skaters) reside in: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...third-worst-covid-19-death-toll-underreported
One that's admitted to underrepporting COVID itself and not enforcing proper regulations.

Therefore, I will not blame and vilify a 16 year old girl who DID test negative for COVID (as far as she herself knows), when Presidents and leaders of sovereign nations have been more than irresponsible - they've been grossly incompetent.

 

[trkvy]

This is the country Anna (and all Russian top skaters) reside in: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...third-worst-covid-19-death-toll-underreported

Getting information about Russia from UK newspapers is like getting information about the USA from Iranian newspapers.

 

[happycamper2554]

Perhaps but was another thread, but posters were clearly mocking other posters concern saying "Anna's not some delicate flower." "She has a will of iron" etc etc.

I still maintain saying this sort of stuff it basically saying anyone who doesn't drag themselves through sickness or injury is less than.

If you admire Anna, Liza and Sasha for competing I don't see how you can't look down on or at the very least disappointed in skaters who don't.

That's what I mean by a dangerous precedent, if they can do it, what's Aliev's excuse, or Nikita and Viktoria's or any of them. What are they? Wusses? Making excuses? Running scared? Gaming

Many people are accusing vika and nikita of being scared of facing S/B and doing a show instead. So the precedent is here. Even though the federation approved them to do it.

 

[colormyworld240]

No I guess not.

But call me strange, I'm far happy to NOT be the sort of person who looks my family in the eye and basically gives them the finger for being worried about me.

TBH I don't see why I should care about Anna's health when are so clearly doesn't. Have at it Anna, but don't expect me to feel sorry for you if it all goes to Hell.

You're spinning your own story now. I remember playing sports in high school, nowhere close to the commitment and level of an Olympic hopeful, but I wanted to compete with injuries and illnesses, too. Obviously I knew my parents would be upset if anything happened, but it's not a complete disregard and FU to them that I wanted to go to competitions? That's an incredibly ignorant way to look at it. Yuzu, Evgenia, and even Sasha here any many others have competed with injuries and there is certainly a level of danger to each situation but wanting to fulfill their goals doesn't mean that they're all horrible people who are giving their parents the finger.. how did you even come to this conclusion?

You don't have to care about Anna's health, you're not her family and have no responsibility to her. However, you're vilifying her for complying with RusFed's competition rules, rules that she didn't make.

In most places in Canada, if there is a temperature check somewhere and you have a fever, you can't enter. There is a chart that will tell you a temperature range that is acceptable, and if you are outside this range, you are turned away. If you try to force it, you are indeed an AH, and security will see you out. I'm assuming it's like that in Australia as well. But Anna didn't skate here or Australia, she skated at a competition organized by RusFed, where if the reports are true, they measured her temperature and they told her OK you can skate, you tested negative for COVID, you passed the requirements. You're treating Anna like she's an Australian who disobeyed your rules, but in reality that competition was governed by RusFed's rules and they gave her the go-ahead.

That same federation gave Sofia Samodurova the go ahead to skate with a fever as well. There was a lot of backlash especially from posters on different forums and boards, but from what I saw, that backlash was directed at RusFed (as it should be) and not Sofia herself. From my POV, they definitely should not have skated with a fever according to our standards here. But that's on the rules from the federation telling them it's okay, not the athletes for taking their okay as an actual okay. If they were skating in Canada (or elsewhere in Russia where you are not allowed to enter with a fever) and pushed their way into the rink when turned away, it would be a complete different story. But neither Anna nor Sofia did that.

 

[Jontor]

Or am I just unreasonably anxious in this situation?

You might be. But that's not your fault. It's the Governments and the Media that has made us scared.

COVID is not good for elderly weak people. They might die. But they are also vulnerable to a common cold or a flu and that is a very normal cause of death for our elders. Normally we call it "died of natural causes".

Here is some statistics from my country Sweden

Sweden: death rate 2010-2020 | Statista

Sweden's death toll up until May 2020 reached nearly half of figures for 2019, a year with relatively little deaths.

www.statista.com

​

As you can see there is nothing that special with 2020. It's per 11th December so there is still 20 days yet to count so we will probably end up at the same level as in 2018. Note the low # of deaths in 2019 which was because we didn't have a severe flu season. That means that a lot of vulnerable and weak elderly spilled into 2020. Also note that in 2010 the population was 9,4 Millions, in 2020 we are 10,1 Millions.

And how is December going in Sweden with COVID deaths?

Sweden COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

Sweden Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.

www.worldometers.info

As you can see the peak of the COVID deaths in the second wave was in late November. December numbers has gone down.

So what does this all mean? Have we all hysterically overreacted to this pandemic?

No we haven't. All the meassures the different governments have done has been necessary to prevent the Health Care systems not to collapse.
That's the main reason.

But it's easy to get the feeling that if you go outside or meet other people you will get the plague and die. That's what Media tells us. So it's up to us to be reasonable and have perspective in the matter. And it's important to remember that COVID hasn't meant that thousands and thousands of extra deaths has occured. That's not the case, at least not in Sweden.

Sorry for the OT...

 

[Mawwerg]

The Federation and indeed even higher up, the Russian government, themselves the the ones with blood on their hands and the ones responsible for gross mismanagement, negligence, and undue harm.
This is the country Anna (and all Russian top skaters) reside in: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...third-worst-covid-19-death-toll-underreported
One that's admitted to underrepporting COVID itself and not enforcing proper regulations.

It's just another the Guardian's article about nothing.

 

[chasingneverland]

Because by her own admission Anna was willing to collapse out on the ice, she was willing to relapse and just "deal with the health issues" later.

That means she was well aware of this possibility.

How do you think her parents, Eteri and everyone else close to her would have felt if that's what happened. Anna's parents must love her dearly, did she even consider their pain and anguish if the worst had happened? She must have known how worried they be. Or does she actually believe and this is frightening to me, that they would have been more pained by her not winning, that her worth as a person is based entirely on whether she skates or not?

Because it's very evident - even by your own last statement - that it's the sporting culture she's been brought up in. How can you blame the individual - especially one who has seen skaters be overtaken once they stopped winning? Remember she's been at Eteri's rink since the 2013-2014 season - that's the year Yulia went the Olympics. That's before Evgenia/Alina/etc. And it's not just Eteri's rink. There are examples all over Russia and even around the world. There is no way that did not make an impression on her young psyche. Sasha too moved there in 2016. They both witnessed Evgenia's dizzing ascent, her dominant reign for two years, her injuries during the Olympic season, Alina's victory (as well as her own junior career), as well as numerous others that never acheived what they did. We're still talking about Evgenia/Alina years later however they were there (they both had front row seats). Aliona has talked about children skating/training with her. Guess who were the children then? Anna and Sasha.

These are girls who have one singular focus. Sasha herself has said similar things. In fact she DID hurt herself further at Rostelecom. Another thing to consider is that children (which both of them are) don't view things from the same perspective as adults. Children view themselves as infallible and fail to see long-term consequences. (Brains are not fully mature until 25.) (For example, you have 22 year old college students throwing parties in the middle of a global pandemic, regardless of the consequences because COVID is just like a cold or the flu, apparently. (They are 5 years older than Anna/Sasha and parties don't have the career implications of RusNats.) And this isn't limited to youth: You have families holding giant gatherings. You have governments who are under-reporting COVID. (Hell you have the president of the most powerful country encouraging people to inject themselves with bleach.)

(As a side note: Considering Anna's parents have encouraged her to quit skating in the past - I think when she broke her leg as a child and considering that they asked her if she wanted to withdraw, I don't think they would be more pained by her not winning.)

However, I think they (both girls and probably most skaters there) viewed their individual aliments as annoyances/hinderances to their goals (in both their cases landing more quads and winning), rather than the serious conditions they are I think it's obvious that the true problem is the culture.

 

[Mathman]

Because I can't imagine, that even when I was a 16 year old I would have made such a decision.

To me, it is not so black-and-white as that -- not at all. Young peop;e feel invincible. They live in denial that anything bad can ever happen to them, or to others on account of their actions. I can easily -- very, very easily -- imagine any of these athletes saying, "I don't really have this virus. I tested negative, didn't I? Anyway, most people don't have any serious symptoms even if they test positive. This is just a cough and a runny nose. I can push through it. I'll wear a mask and make sure I don't expose anyone. I won't tell my coach I'm feeling sick. I can do this!"

 

[chasingneverland]

It's just another the Guardian's article about nothing.

Fine. Have a Russian article about surging COVID cases. https://tass.com/society/1240343

EDIT: The point was mostly that it's clear Russia (and the world in many cases) isn't handling COVID well.

 

[chasingneverland]

Perhaps but was another thread, but posters were clearly mocking other posters concern saying "Anna's not some delicate flower." "She has a will of iron" etc etc.

I still maintain saying this sort of stuff it basically saying anyone who doesn't drag themselves through sickness or injury is less than.

If you admire Anna, Liza and Sasha for competing I don't see how you can't look down on or at the very least disappointed in skaters who don't.

That's what I mean by a dangerous precedent, if they can do it, what's Aliev's excuse, or Nikita and Viktoria's or any of them. What are they? Wusses? Making excuses? Running scared? Gaming the system?

If pneumonia, post COVID recovering and serious injury aren't a reason what is?

The next conclusion to make is any skater who's not literally in a hospital bed should be penalised for not attending an event.

I can admire them for what they did - they showed bravery through their skates. I also think they never should have had to. Skaters will almost never pull themselves from an event. That's on their parents (when they're young), their coaches, and their doctors. If none of these will, it's also on the Federation/organizers to ensure a healthy/safe event.

I can also admire others for not.In fact, I admire them more for making a choice for their own personal health and safety. I DID say (and somehow you keep missing it) that I did call for all them to withdraw.

It isn't one or the other. It isn't a black or white argument. That's binary thinking.

 

[colormyworld240]

To me, it is not so black-and-white as that -- not at all. Young peop;e feel invincible. They live in denial that anything bad can ever happen to them, or to others on account of their actions. I can easily -- very, very easily -- imagine any of these athletes saying, "I don't really have this virus. I tested negative, didn't I? Anyway, most people don't have any serious symptoms even if they test positive. This is just a cough and a runny nose. I can push through it. I'll wear a mask and make sure I don't expose anyone. I won't tell my coach I'm feeling sick. I can do this!"

This part exactly.

RusFed's rules: take COVID test, negative test = no COVID you can skate

Anna (and any other athlete): takes COVID test, gets negative result, from the conditions given I can skate

How is she supposed to look at that and say, ok I have COVID I can spread it I shouldn't go?

 

[Mawwerg]

I'm sure since November multiple tests were taken and Anna's health was monitored by team Russia doctors(and probably not only by them). And nobody hides Anna's condition. I believe doctors just didn't find any significant risks for Anna to skate.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Young peop;e feel invincible. They live in denial that anything bad can ever happen to them, or to others on account of their actions.

Sadly I never had this experience I never felt invincible as a young person, I always worried bad things could happen to me and others. Must have been fun not to worry.

I can also admire others for not.In fact, I admire them more for making a choice for their own personal health and safety. I DID say (and somehow you keep missing it) that I did call for all them to withdraw.

I know you did, but despite quoting you I wasn't actually referring to you - I should have made that clearer.

I was referring to others, particularly in the ladies FS thread where someone wrote thatAnna's win was a triumph over "laziness, excuses" and something else I can't recall. Clearly in their opinion the skaters who withdraw are not admirable. And plenty of others agreed.

 

[anonymoose_au]

I'm sure since November multiple tests were taken and Anna's health was monitored by team Russia doctors(and probably not only by them). And nobody hides Anna's condition. I believe doctors just didn't find any significant risks for Anna to skate.

Well as everyone has pointed out COVID's not the only illness on the world, but I wouldn't a cold or flu either!

So Anna didn't have COVID, fine, but a fever is a clear symptom of some illness, couldn't she at least have taken care not to stand right next to others or always keep a mask on when off ice? Like if you're going to show up to work sick, you should at least try NOT to spread it. It's common courtesy I would think.

And yes that goes for Liza too, and Sofia S way back in September and probably the top three pairs too.

 

[chasingneverland]

Sadly I never had this experience I never felt invincible as a young person, I always worried bad things could happen to me and others. Must have been fun not to worry.

I know you did, but despite quoting you I wasn't actually referring to you - I should have made that clearer.

I was referring to others, particularly in the ladies FS thread where someone wrote thatAnna's win was a triumph over "laziness, excuses" and something else I can't recall. Clearly in their opinion the skaters who withdraw are not admirable. And plenty of others agreed.

I'm sorry.

That opinion is quite frankly rude to BOTH Anna AND skaters who did withdraw, whom I do find brave. And because I know people are going to question that comment, I feel like Anna herself would be upset at such negative comments against her friends and rivals, especially as 1. she herself wasn't sure she was going to succeed - she's said she was worried she wouldn't make it through and 2. seeing as they trained together for years, I'm sure she knows more than anyone how hard Aliona (and others) work. It's best not to give such cruel opinions any attention. Furthermore it devalues what Anna did accomplish here and remember she herself withdrew from Rostelecom so does the same poster then also think that was laziness and excuses?

 

[sclloyd]

Because by her own admission Anna was willing to collapse out on the ice, she was willing to relapse and just "deal with the health issues" later.

That means she was well aware of this possibility.

How do you think her parents, Eteri and everyone else close to her would have felt if that's what happened. Anna's parents must love her dearly, did she even consider their pain and anguish if the worst had happened? She must have known how worried they be. Or does she actually believe and this is frightening to me, that they would have been more pained by her not winning, that her worth as a person is based entirely on whether she skates or not?

I don't think the coaches and parents would be more pained by her not winning. But if she is well aware of the issues and she is treated as an adult by all parties then all the guidance in the world may not be enough to convince her she should withdraw. It is her career and parents and coaches are again, only guidance. She could get injured next week and never skate again, but this title will remain with her forever. It appears reckless and irresponsible to us (and selfish if she did in fact put the health of others at risk) but I can totally see where she is coming from. And honestly? I'd do the same thing. I HAVE done the same thing and with far lower stakes. Only Anna knows her limits. And I think that if she isn't putting others at risk, it isn't anyone's place to force her out before she breaks them or concedes herself.

 

[[email protected]]

Exactly. Kostornaia withdrew herself reluctantly. It was probably the lack of training that made her realize there was no point. She had to quarantine in early December. Anna was off the ice for 6 days in late November. Huge difference.

That's what I think as well. It has little to do with Alyona's prudency to withdraw because of her health concerns. It has to do with concerns of her not being able to compete.

 

[flanker]

I'm with Anonymoose. I try to be a nice person, but this thread has gotten the best of me.

In what are you with her precisely. In endless attacks on Anna? In arguing the way "what people would say about Plushenko or Sasha" that literally nobody does? What is the point? Apart from that we've learned that according to anonymoose Anna is stupid and selfish there was hardly anything else useful in the last two days in that conversation. If the comparison between Anna and the Indian killer is the best of you, I think I don't want to see the worst.

 

[flanker]

This is the country Anna (and all Russian top skaters) reside in: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...third-worst-covid-19-death-toll-underreported

If this is taken into the debate, then well I'm sorry but it is known Britain underreports their numbers strongly (esp. not counting the cases that are not admitted to hospital at all). And I guess it's not just the Britain, it's just that it is publicly known. Also Guardian is known for their openly antirussian tone (projected BTW into articles about figure skating as well).

 

[flanker]

You might be. But that's not your fault. It's the Governments and the Media that has made us scared.

COVID is not good for elderly weak people. They might die. But they are also vulnerable to a common cold or a flu and that is a very normal cause of death for our elders. Normally we call it "died of natural causes".

Here is some statistics from my country Sweden

Sweden: death rate 2010-2020 | Statista

Sweden's death toll up until May 2020 reached nearly half of figures for 2019, a year with relatively little deaths.

www.statista.com

​

As you can see there is nothing that special with 2020. It's per 11th December so there is still 20 days yet to count so we will probably end up at the same level as in 2018. Note the low # of deaths in 2019 which was because we didn't have a severe flu season. That means that a lot of vulnerable and weak elderly spilled into 2020. Also note that in 2010 the population was 9,4 Millions, in 2020 we are 10,1 Millions.

And how is December going in Sweden with COVID deaths?

Sweden COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

Sweden Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.

www.worldometers.info

As you can see the peak of the COVID deaths in the second wave was in late November. December numbers has gone down.

So what does this all mean? Have we all hysterically overreacted to this pandemic?

No we haven't. All the meassures the different governments have done has been necessary to prevent the Health Care systems not to collapse.
That's the main reason.

But it's easy to get the feeling that if you go outside or meet other people you will get the plague and die. That's what Media tells us. So it's up to us to be reasonable and have perspective in the matter. And it's important to remember that COVID hasn't meant that thousands and thousands of extra deaths has occured. That's not the case, at least not in Sweden.

Sorry for the OT...

This